Baptism of the Holy Spirit, is not at salvation

[godsquadgeek]

I never claimed that.
You may need to reread your OP and my response to your claims about what Acts 19 teaches from this example.

But again let me ask you the question. When does hearing about the Holy Spirit save us? I thought hearing the Gospel and believe IT SAVES US? Am I wrong? Unless like I said believing the Holy Spirit is part of the Gospel, in which you would have to prove with verses.

 

[JohnDB]

As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul’s heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.


19Word came to Saul: “David is in Naioth at Ramah”; 20so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came on Saul’s men, and they also prophesied. 21Saul was told about it, and he sent more men, and they prophesied too. Saul sent men a third time, and they also prophesied.22Finally, he himself left for Ramah and went to the great cistern at Seku. And he asked, “Where are Samuel and David?”

“Over in Naioth at Ramah,” they said.

23So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

 

[JohnDB]

The preceding verses out of 1 Samuel show us that the Holy Spirit isn't exactly tame and pretty much does as He pleases.

One day the Holy Spirit could torment Saul the next it was giving Saul courage and at another time it could make him strip naked and Prophesy. Saul was a reject and rejected by God. David was chosen. But the Holy Spirit was upon both of them. God changed Saul's heart but never needed to with David. Saul was always "with no choice" but David was after God's own heart.

So when the Old Testament explains the New Testament I am trying to figure out what exactly people are saying has happened to them. Were they evil and made into a puppet of God's or simply empowered to do more?

 

[atpollard]

But again let me ask you the question. When does hearing about the Holy Spirit save us? I thought hearing the Gospel and believe IT SAVES US? Am I wrong? Unless like I said believing the Holy Spirit is part of the Gospel, in which you would have to prove with verses.

Never. No. (To answer your two questions)
Now that you have ignored the point of my original post and required me to chase you down this bunny trail, let us return to what Acts 19 actually says and let me ask you a question:

Acts 19:3-5 NASB
3 And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4 Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 When they heard this, they were baptized [fn]in the name of the Lord Jesus.

They had only repented without knowledge of the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Is one saved without hearing about Jesus Christ? Is there a Gospel without Jesus?

(Your Topic Title and Post #1 argues that they were already saved.)

 

[1Genesis]

just admit it, you don't like this debate. Needless to say I won't be here much longer, I will be on a new thread I made just for cessationism.
http://christianforums.net/Fellowsh...-or-are-they-still-active.71560/#post-1382292

Goodness that's really out of line.

I think this discussion has traveled this many pages because the premise in the first post is contrary to the teachings we are all familiar with. Now we're trying to disprove the negative that is proposed there. And we're oddly enough meeting rebuttal.

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified. (John 7:38-39)

Copied From/
Don Stewart :: Is the Baptism with the Holy Spirit a Second Experience following Salvation?

We can conclude the following:

1. The baptism with the Holy Spirit occurs the moment a person is saved. It is not the same experience as salvation but happens at the time of salvation. It is not a second experience following conversion.

 

[eddif]

The preceding verses out of 1 Samuel show us that the Holy Spirit isn't exactly tame and pretty much does as He pleases.

One day the Holy Spirit could torment Saul the next it was giving Saul courage and at another time it could make him strip naked and Prophesy. Saul was a reject and rejected by God. David was chosen. But the Holy Spirit was upon both of them. God changed Saul's heart but never needed to with David. Saul was always "with no choice" but David was after God's own heart.

So when the Old Testament explains the New Testament I am trying to figure out what exactly people are saying has happened to them. Were they evil and made into a puppet of God's or simply empowered to do more?

Really?
I Samuel 16:14 KJV
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

redneck
eddif

 

[ezra]

Goodness that's really out of line.

the only problem with these type discussions is man/ woman feeling come out. i will say this again {echo} much like eternal security it would depend on who you asked... in this thread you have those of the Pentecostal belief tongues are for today. then those of the Baptist Belief ...i use these two just as general rule thumb.

it soon turns into a my belief over trumps yours.. i have read several post of personal experience on tongues . i will say this... any one who says the Gifts of the spirit left after Pentecost is wrong.. as they are spiritual gifts and yes men still have gifts for what? edify the body. miracles still happen many we have no idea even happened GOD through the holy spirit will use men/woman or any other means we are just vessels needing to be filled
1 Corinthians 12:31
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Ephesians 4:11-13New Life Version (NLV)
11 Christ gave gifts to men. He gave to some the gift to be missionaries, some to be preachers, others to be preachers who go from town to town. He gave others the gift to be church leaders and teachers. 12 These gifts help His people work well for Him. And then the church which is the body of Christ will be made strong. 13 All of us are to be as one in the faith and in knowing the Son of God. We are to be full-grown Christians standing as high and complete as Christ is Himself.

we need make sure there are Gifts of the spirit and not of us..

 

[eddif]

II Samuel 7:14 KJV
But my mercy shall not depart away from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away before thee.

Jesus sits on the eternal throne.
The Samuel parallel in the natural helps us understand John the Baptist statement (although hidden):

John 1:33 KJV
And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

eddif

 

[eddif]

John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

eddif

 

[ezra]

John 16:13 KJV
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

eddif

whose truth mine or yours

 

[1Genesis]

the only problem with these type discussions is man/ woman feeling come out. i will say this again {echo} much like eternal security it would depend on who you asked... in this thread you have those of the Pentecostal belief tongues are for today. then those of the Baptist Belief ...i use these two just as general rule thumb.

it soon turns into a my belief over trumps yours.. i have read several post of personal experience on tongues . i will say this... any one who says the Gifts of the spirit left after Pentecost is wrong.. as they are spiritual gifts and yes men still have gifts for what? edify the body. miracles still happen many we have no idea even happened GOD through the holy spirit will use men/woman or any other means we are just vessels needing to be filled
1 Corinthians 12:31
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.
Ephesians 4:11-13New Life Version (NLV)
11 Christ gave gifts to men. He gave to some the gift to be missionaries, some to be preachers, others to be preachers who go from town to town. He gave others the gift to be church leaders and teachers. 12 These gifts help His people work well for Him. And then the church which is the body of Christ will be made strong. 13 All of us are to be as one in the faith and in knowing the Son of God. We are to be full-grown Christians standing as high and complete as Christ is Himself.

we need make sure there are Gifts of the spirit and not of us..

That observation echos what I had previously observed about these type threads. And with greater input and scripture references. Thank you for all of that.

 

[eddif]

whose truth mine or yours

I Corinthians 4:5 KJV
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Redneck
eddif

 

[ezra]

I Corinthians 4:5 KJV
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

Redneck
eddif

not what i asked { into all truth: }

 

[ezra]

That observation echos what I had previously observed about these type threads. And with greater input and scripture references. Thank you for all of that.

 

[JohnDB]

Really?
I Samuel 16:14 KJV
But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

redneck
eddif

The only thing that the Holy Spirit did for Saul was give him courage to do what he needed to so he could win Israelites wars.

Anger was the controlling emotion that controlled Saul.

But David wasn't controlled... only enhanced to accomplish what he wished.

 

[eddif]

The only thing that the Holy Spirit did for Saul was give him courage to do what he needed to so he could win Israelites wars.

Anger was the controlling emotion that controlled Saul.

But David wasn't controlled... only enhanced to accomplish what he wished.

I Samuel 28:7 KJV
Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.

I Samuel 28:15 KJV
And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16 Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17 And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18 Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.

With this i wall hopefully drop King Saul
eddif

 

[JohnDB]

Numbers 11:17 “Then I will come down and speak with you there, and I will take of the Spirit who is upon you, and will put Him upon them; and they shall bear the burden of the people with you, so that you will not bear it all alone.

Numbers 11:25 Then the Lord came down in the cloud and spoke to him; and He took of the Spirit who was upon him and placed Him upon the seventy elders. And when the Spirit rested upon them, they prophesied. But they did not do it again.

1 Samuel 16:14 Now the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord terrorized him.

 

[FreeGrace]

whose truth mine or yours

Should be the Bible's truth. All beliefs should be able to cite Scripture that actually says what one believes. What usually happens is that verses are used that the post thinks "means" what he claims. That's the rub.

 

[atpollard]

So when the Old Testament explains the New Testament I am trying to figure out what exactly people are saying has happened to them. Were they evil and made into a puppet of God's or simply empowered to do more?

I always thought it was the other way around ... The OT can only fully be understood when viewed through the lens of the New Testement. In any event, my best shot at answering this question comes from Ezekiel 36:22-32 NASB

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not [fn]bring a famine on you. 30 I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”​

While this is admittedly a scripture directed towards Israel, it offers an OT typology of what God is doing in the NT through the "born from above".

(v.22-24) It is not done for our sake (although we benefit), but rather for the glory of God's holy name.
(v.25) God does the cleansing, we are the objects covered in filth.
(v.26) God removes a dead heart ... incapable of life and of no value to God or us. God gifts (unmerited) a heart that is alive ... better for us and of value to God (as something other than firewood).
(v.27) God's Spirit (the seal which guarantees our inheritance) dwells in us and empowers us to walk in God's statutes. The dead heart can not and has no desire to walk in the statutes. The living heart desires to walk in God's statutes, but cannot. God's Spirit empowers the new heart to do what it now desires ... to please God!
(v.28) How much more intimate is our NT relationship. We are not merely God's "people", we are God's sons and daughters, the Bride of Jesus Christ.


I could go on, but the point has been made.
Anyway, that's my best guess in answer to your question.

 

[JohnDB]

I always thought it was the other way around ... The OT can only fully be understood when viewed through the lens of the New Testement. In any event, my best shot at answering this question comes from Ezekiel 36:22-32 NASB

22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not [fn]bring a famine on you. 30 I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”​

While this is admittedly a scripture directed towards Israel, it offers an OT typology of what God is doing in the NT through the "born from above".

(v.22-24) It is not done for our sake (although we benefit), but rather for the glory of God's holy name.
(v.25) God does the cleansing, we are the objects covered in filth.
(v.26) God removes a dead heart ... incapable of life and of no value to God or us. God gifts (unmerited) a heart that is alive ... better for us and of value to God (as something other than firewood).
(v.27) God's Spirit (the seal which guarantees our inheritance) dwells in us and empowers us to walk in God's statutes. The dead heart can not and has no desire to walk in the statutes. The living heart desires to walk in God's statutes, but cannot. God's Spirit empowers the new heart to do what it now desires ... to please God!
(v.28) How much more intimate is our NT relationship. We are not merely God's "people", we are God's sons and daughters, the Bride of Jesus Christ.


I could go on, but the point has been made.
Anyway, that's my best guess in answer to your question.

God does not change...ever!

The New Testament reveals the Old Testament
But
The Old Testament explains the New Testament.
And if following God's desires was so easy (because of the Holy Spirit) why did Paul feel the need to write so much?
(Nevermind the rest of the letters)

So obviously the passage you have cited must not be exactly what you are ascribing it to mean.

God doesn't change because God is not bound by the constraints of time. God created time. So where there have been two different Covenants God hasn't changed one tiny bit. And what God has done He is more than willing to do again.

God has sent the Holy Spirit to make human puppets out of some people and yet empower others who have God's same desires.

For Peter it allowed him to speak boldly (when a little over a month previous he was scared of a slave girl) and make himself clearly understood by the various languages in attendance at the Temple.

Simon (Magnus) offered the Apostles money so he could have the Holy Spirit... didn't work out for him.

And the Holy Spirit came upon Saul even after it had been removed from him and he was caught naked and Prophesying.