Believe in God, you will be saved

[jerry63935]

If he didn’t believe Jesus was the Messiah, why would he say,
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

ok i will bite i wasnt going to as to it really dont matter . at one time we was the thief on the cross That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Ephesians 2:12 & 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.…
there is only two types of people saved or lost . were born again not born saved .i can tell you the time place and how /when i got saved i was called out of the darkness into the glorious light the Bible says

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. that is all that matters you ask Calvinist its several step process to be saved.

i have been told he had to baptized in order to be saved. if that be the case then the doctrine of justification of by faith by the blood by grace. has to be thrown out and go to a work based salvation

 

[Runner]

I went back and read the original post (probably always a good idea!) and have a hard time believing it stirred up this much debate. Neither the title nor the thread was intended as a theological treatise, The message was simply that anyone can turn to God through Christ. It doesn't purport to define what it means to "accept" or "believe" in God.

James 2:19 doesn't say the demons believe "in" God. It says they believe there is one God - i.e., in the existence of God. I believe Australia exists, but that doesn't make me Australian.

In 1970, I believed and said a prayer along the lines of what is set forth in the original post. I was born again at that moment, but not saved. Christ's atoning work now applied to me, God's grace and forgiveness now applied to me, the Holy Spirit now indwelt me, and as a baby in Christ I could now begin to crawl along the path to salvation. By "continuing to believe," as John 3:16 is properly interpreted, I would learn to walk and would then stumble and dodder along until I completed my earthly journey.

Exactly what it means to "continue to believe" is a bit of a mystery, and I believe intentionally so. A bit of uncertainty keeps us on our spiritual toes.

Jennifer Rogers must be feeling like no good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes.

 

[Mister E]

@Jennifer Rogers must be feeling like no good deed goes unpunished, as the saying goes.

My only impetus for joining in.

 

[GodsGrace]

ok i will bite i wasnt going to as to it really dont matter . at one time we was the thief on the cross That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Ephesians 2:12 & 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.…
there is only two types of people saved or lost . were born again not born saved .i can tell you the time place and how /when i got saved i was called out of the darkness into the glorious light the Bible says

1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. that is all that matters you ask Calvinist its several step process to be saved.

i have been told he had to baptized in order to be saved. if that be the case then the doctrine of justification of by faith by the blood by grace. has to be thrown out and go to a work based salvation

We are justified by only faith.
Our faith gets us on the track with God and we become a child of God.

What Runner is posting, and which some refuse to understand, is that immediately after justification comes sanctification.

Sanctification does require works.
This is all Jesus spoke of,,,
Belonging to the Kingdom, and how to remain there so we don't get thrown out of the Wedding Banquet.

Jesus was talking about Now,,,
Since we surely cannot be banished from heaven once we are there.

 

[jerry63935]

We are justified by only faith.

actually we are not only justified by faith but grace and the blood
Romans 3:24
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Romans 5
5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

What Runner is posting, and which some refuse to understand, is that immediately after justification comes sanctification.

Sanctification does require works.

it does but we become a work in progress many cringe at the 3 steps but i will list them

1. positional place into the Body of Christ at the new birth
2. progressive we grow in the grace and knowledge sanctify is to be made holy a never ending progress i like to say a work in progress . he is the poster and we are the clay
3. ultimate we made it home no more sin


but yes i agree with you

​

​

 

[jerry63935]

Exactly what it means to "continue to believe" is a bit of a mystery, and I believe intentionally so. A bit of uncertainty keeps us on our spiritual toes.

i like what Paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling . we may falter but we are all trying do best we can with his grace

 

[Runner]

i like what Paul wrote work out your own salvation with fear and trembling . we may falter but we are all trying do best we can with his grace

I do too - one of my favorite verses in the Bible.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I think it's very clear Jesus saw His faith. Two asked something of Him and only one received a reply. The one who believed in Him.

That said repentance is always a good start.

I venture to say that one thief just wanted out of his own suffering. That’s like the “pray this simple prayer after me admitting you can’t get yourself out of hell/suffering/sin and you’ll get out of hell free” thinking whereas the other clearly honored Jesus believing He was who he claimed and was not trying to avoid the just suffering for his crimes. One thief thought only of himself and the other thought of Jesus’s honor.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I went back and read the original post (probably always a good idea!) and have a hard time believing it stirred up this much debate. Neither the title nor the thread was intended as a theological treatise, The message was simply that anyone can turn to God through Christ. It doesn't purport to define what it means to "accept" or "believe" in God.

I read it too. It easy cheap grace salvation that likely doesn’t result in salvation for those who say the (magic) words. I’m sorry for those who think saying those words assures them of Heaven.

James 2:19 doesn't say the demons believe "in" God. It says they believe there is one God - i.e., in the existence of God. I believe Australia exists, but that doesn't make me Australian.

Believing in God is believing there is a God. And knowing there is a country down under called Australia is a matter of education not belief and knowing there is a country doesn’t make anyone a citizen. Citizenship requires more than education.

Exactly what it means to "continue to believe" is a bit of a mystery, and I believe intentionally so. A bit of uncertainty keeps us on our spiritual toes.

This is likely the fruit of simply saying a prayer that includes “you believe.”

 

[stovebolts]

ok i will bite i wasnt going to as to it really dont matter .

It kinda does matter as it shapes ones theology.

at one time we was the thief on the cross That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: Ephesians 2:12 & 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.…

Paul is writing to non-jews. The thief on the cross was a jew. Two different audiences, two very different stories. Trying to bind and apply this passage to the thief on the cross will result in poor theology as exegetically, they are very far apart.

there is only two types of people saved or lost . were born again not born saved .i can tell you the time place and how /when i got saved i was called out of the darkness into the glorious light the Bible says

First, you don't know if the thief on the cross was already saved or not. I suspect he was already saved and Jesus was simply affirming his place in the kingdom. As far as you being able to tell people the time and place you were 'saved', bravo. It has little to no bearing on the discussion.

i have been told he had to baptized in order to be saved. if that be the case then the doctrine of justification of by faith by the blood by grace. has to be thrown out and go to a work based salvation

That's neither here nor there, although more than likely he was baptized either by John or one of Jesus disciples. You know me well enough to know that I was a member of the church of Christ for the majority of my life, so I do understand fully what you are saying about 'works based salvation' and I affirm your concern. However, to go off on that tangent either way is a distraction to the primacy of the passage imo.

 

[jerry63935]

First, you don't know if the thief on the cross was already saved or not. I suspect he was already saved and Jesus was simply affirming his place in the kingdom. As far as you being able to tell people the time and place you were 'saved', bravo. It has little to no bearing on the discussion.

well naturally there is no information in scriptures on the thief on the cross nothing says he was baptized that is adding to something not there one thing you got right { imo.)

First, you don't know if the thief on the cross was already saved or not. I suspect he was already saved and Jesus was simply affirming his place in the kingdom

nether do you because once again it does not say
39 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.

40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?

41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.





show me in these scriptures where it says he was already saved before crucifixion' or he was baptized . anything other than what scripture reads is pure speculation the important thing is he got his house in order as per

the time and place you were 'saved', bravo. It has little to no bearing on the discussion. i see you like sarcasm a personal testimony is very important

You know me well enough to know that I was a member of the church of Christ for the majority of my life, so I do understand fully what you are saying about 'works based salvation

i cant help how you was raised .. i was raised umc the name tag holds no merit it either falls off going up or burns off going down. work based salvation is adding past saved by grace through faith. some denoms add baptism some speaking in tongues some both. justification is what happens the moment we get saved. no place does it mention justified by baptism or tongues .
in closing i dont know what being church of Christ has to do with anything . other than some groups coc believe they are the true n.t church . many apostolic are the same way. might i add some baptist feel they are the authority in scripture . i bet there is big ol shiny crown for all them saying church of Christ Baptist apostolic .... as for me i am happy just knowing i was once a sinner but now I'm saved happy trails

 

[jerry63935]

It kinda does matter as it shapes ones theology.

soon as you show what your saying .i will make a post saying i am wrong there is nothing in scripture to indicate he was saved before or after my theology is shaped by what scripture says

Acts 8:26-39

King James Version

​

26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing..


in reading this it shows eunuch did not understand how to be saved .until Phillip explained it. them after he was saved he was baptized.. that is correct theology .. you can reject this remove this but it still is correct theology because of what the scripture says

 

[stovebolts]

well naturally there is no information in scriptures on the thief on the cross nothing says he was baptized that is adding to something not there one thing you got right { imo.)

I know. I'm not a purest when it comes to sola scripture. I read most of the bible as a story and rarely if ever as affirmation of doctrine. For me, it's not 'information', it's a story with real people. When I look at the culture and the thief's faith by the things he said to Jesus and the way he said them, it indicates to me that he was a follower which means he was more than likely baptized. Again, I'm not reading it as doctrine nor as an affirmation of any doctrine. It's a story with meaning at face value.

show me in these scriptures where it says he was already saved before crucifixion' or he was baptized . anything other than what scripture reads is pure speculation the important thing is he got his house in order as per

Listen Jerry, I understand that there are many of you that prize the "date and time" of your "Salvation". If you only look at these passages through that lens, you miss the story. Here is the problem the way I see it. You're making your decisions on what this "IS NOT" based on a doctrinal argument. I'm not arguing doctrine brother. Honestly, I could care less about your doctrine about as much as I care about the far-right legalistic churches of Christ's works-based doctrine on baptism. BTW, not all churches of Christ are far-right or legalistic in the matter.

i see you like sarcasm a personal testimony is very important

Testimony is important Jerry. You didn't give testimony; you only gave a statement affirming your pet doctrine. Big difference.

i cant help how you was raised .. i was raised umc the name tag holds no merit it either falls off going up or burns off going down. work based salvation is adding past saved by grace through faith. some denoms add baptism some speaking in tongues some both. justification is what happens the moment we get saved. no place does it mention justified by baptism or tongues .

I was raised in foster homes and juvenile detention, and then institutions. I ran the streets when I was 12 and spent my 13th, 14th, 15th and 16th birthday incarcerated and when I got out at 17 I ran the streets in Hollywood Ca. I was brought to Christ in Juvenile and backslid many times. My first marriage ended very bad and I've been married to my current wife for going on 25 years. I wasn't raised with religion, let alone man-made religion, although I did spend some time in Scientology in my early 20's.
From personal experience, I put less focus on being 'Saved' as I do God's transforming power. We are HIS workmanship. In other words, sanctification is where the real work is and that's what makes us His crowning jewel.

So bravo to everyone who can remember the date they were 'saved'. Now show me how God has transformed you.

 

[jerry63935]

Now show me how God has transformed you.

i done did and your reply oh ! that's nice so bravo to you. being transformed is a w.i.p btw being saved is his transforming power we have to grow .

{ I wasn't raised with religion, let alone man-made religion, } i dont do religion i work on my relationship

sanctification is where the real work is

i covered that in another post

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It kinda does matter as it shapes ones theology.

Paul is writing to non-jews. The thief on the cross was a jew. Two different audiences, two very different stories. Trying to bind and apply this passage to the thief on the cross will result in poor theology as exegetically, they are very far apart.

First, you don't know if the thief on the cross was already saved or not. I suspect he was already saved and Jesus was simply affirming his place in the kingdom. As far as you being able to tell people the time and place you were 'saved', bravo. It has little to no bearing on the discussion.

That's neither here nor there, although more than likely he was baptized either by John or one of Jesus disciples. You know me well enough to know that I was a member of the church of Christ for the majority of my life, so I do understand fully what you are saying about 'works based salvation' and I affirm your concern. However, to go off on that tangent either way is a distraction to the primacy of the passage imo.

Isn’t there a difficulty with saying the thief was already saved but making a living by stealing?

 

[jerry63935]

Isn’t there a difficulty with saying the thief was already saved but making a living by stealing?

anything is possible he could have realized he needed to be saved before going to the cross or being on the cross beside Jesus testified he needed to be saved my point is it don't say

 

[Randy]

I venture to say that one thief just wanted out of his own suffering. That’s like the “pray this simple prayer after me admitting you can’t get yourself out of hell/suffering/sin and you’ll get out of hell free” thinking whereas the other clearly honored Jesus believing He was who he claimed and was not trying to avoid the just suffering for his crimes. One thief thought only of himself and the other thought of Jesus’s honor.

That one felt "if" Jesus was truly the Christ He could get them down from the cross. Yes, his motive was love for himself not God or Jesus. That one wasn't answered at all by Jesus. The other must have noted the attitude of contempt and disrespect toward Jesus for he stated to that one "do you not fear God even now.." . The one who spoke belief of Jesus's Kingdom that not of this world was answered by Jesus and his sins were forgiven. I assume they were all before Pilate for judgment and heard the conversation between Pilate and Jesus. One of them believed in Jesus's testimony to Pilate and by the words spoken by the of the one who has authority to forgive sins on earth ,(Jesus), went from death to eternal life in that instant and it wasn't by works that his sins were forgiven.

 

[jerry63935]

I assume they were all before Pilate for judgment and heard the conversation between Pilate and Jesus. One of them believed in Jesus's testimony to Pilate and by the words spoken by the of the one who has authority to forgive sins on earth ,(Jesus), went from death to eternal life in that instant and it wasn't by works that his sins were forgiven.

that is a very good possibility

 

[Runner]

I read it too. It easy cheap grace salvation that likely doesn’t result in salvation for those who say the (magic) words. I’m sorry for those who think saying those words assures them of Heaven.

It appears to me you're overlaying your disdain for the OSAS theology onto the well-meaning original post. Jennifer is the moderator of the Orthodox Christianity forum. She can speak for herself, but Orthodoxy is about as far from "cheap grace salvation" as it is possible to get. I doubt the prayer by which any of us came to Christ would hold up to sophisticated theological scrutiny.

Believing in God is believing there is a God. And knowing there is a country down under called Australia is a matter of education not belief and knowing there is a country doesn’t make anyone a citizen. Citizenship requires more than education.

So you think the demons believe "in" God, even though this isn't what James said? I see a major distinction between believing "in" God and "believing there is one God" as James said. Believing "in" God implies trust and commitment that merely acknowledging the existence of God doesn't.

This is likely the fruit of simply saying a prayer that includes “you believe.”

Whose Christianity are you sitting in judgment of here - mine or Jennifer's?

When I was an in-house attorney for a Fortune 100 corporation, we used to have a phrase for the General Counsel: "Often wrong but never in doubt." If the shoe fits, as the saying goes.

 

[stovebolts]

Isn’t there a difficulty with saying the thief was already saved but making a living by stealing?

We don’t know what either of their crimes were.
I’d also note that “being saved” is often overrated in certain theological circles.

Do you sin? Dorthy? We all sin. Look at King David, he committed adultery with a married woman and then murdered her husband. That’s pretty serious.

David had an option. He could have responded like Saul did. But he didn’t.

What I think many people fail to see is this. It’s not that we sin, but how do we respond when we either become aware of that sin, or our sin becomes exposed.

The two criminals on the cross represent this perfectly. One to the left of him and one to his right.

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

One criminal is on Jesus Left, the other on his Right.

Saul - David. Both men committed grave sins. Both men responded differently when their sins were exposed.