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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Body, Soul, and Spirit
- Thread starter Butch5
- Start date
Show me the scriptures you are referring too in regards too (1) Moses (2) Elijah and (3) Abraham.
You are trying to prove through these men that after we die our spirits live in the third heaven, correct?
You forgot the definition of the word vision. How does God show us, (through) visions...
vi·sion - noun
1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination ( def 1 ) .
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.
A person appearing in a vision does not mean that this person is there physically. - DRS81
par·a·ble - noun
1. a short allegorical story designed to illustrate or teach some truth, religious principle, or moral lesson.
2. a statement or comment that conveys a meaning indirectly by the use of comparison, analogy, or the like.
Hi Edward. The truth or moral lesson or religious principle being taught here in Luke 16:19-31 is that Jesus was rebuking the Jewish leadership and speaking of the kingdom being taken from the Jews. Jesus was drawing on an OT passage that they would be very familiar with. In Deuteronomy there is what is known as the song of Moses. The song of Moses speaks of Israel's rebellion against God, in it we find this passage in which Jesus was referring to..Deu 32:16-27 Hades - The word translated (hell) in this passage is Hades. God said a fire is kindled in my anger and shall burn to the lowest Hades. This passage is speaking of Israel's rejection of God, and Jesus is alluding to this, the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Deu 32:22 is a metaphor meaning that there is nowhere they can go to escape God's wrath. In other words it is absolutely certain.
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Jesus stated that no man has seen God.
The Old Testament saints were preserved in paradise in the heart of the earth, until Jesus descended down there are revealed Himself to them as the Messiah.
At that point their sin was taken away, as it was only atoned for in the Old Testament.
8 Therefore He says: "When He ascended on high, He led captivity captive, And gave gifts to men." 9 (Now this, "He ascended"--what does it mean but that He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
Ephesians 4:8-9
Now, after the cross and after descended down into the heart of the earth, and ascended to heaven, they dwell in heaven.
Now after the cross, Paul can rightly say -
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:6-8
When we die now, we are absent from the body and are present with the Lord in Heaven, where He is.
JLB
Butch5
Member
But the parables start, " there was a certain rich man?" The argument,. it's not a parable because Jesus uses a name, is from silence. Along that line one could also argue that it is a parable because there is nowhere else in the Bible that teaches the dead are somehow alive.
Have you considered that the name means something in the parable? Most names come from normal words. Your name and mine were probably everyday words in the language in which they originated. Your name is a compound of two words, here is what Wikipedia says about it.
Edward is an English given name. It is derived from Old English words ead (meaning 'wealth', 'fortune' or 'prosperous') and weard(meaning 'guardian' or 'protector'). Wikipedia
Edward stems from to common everyday words. With that in mind what does:Lazarus mean? Lazarus is the Greek form of Eleazer which means God helps. Who does God help?
Lazarus was a poor beggar
And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God. (Luk 6:20 KJV)
The Pharisees were proud and they were rich, the rich man was rich and if he represents the Jewish leadership as I suspect he was proud. Lazarus on the other hand was humbled and reduced to begging.
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:1 KJV)
KJV James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. (Jam 4:6 KJV)
KJV 1 Peter 5:5 Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. (1Pe 5:5 KJV)
KJV Isaiah 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and all those things have been, saith the LORD: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word. (Isa 66:2 KJV)
These passages describe Lazarus (The beggar) and explain that this is the one that God helps (Lazarus)
When we look at the parable who is God helping, it's Lazarus, not the rich man..
Butch5
Member
Have you noticed that verse 8 says, "He lead captivity captive" not He lead the captives captive. Captives are prisoners, Paul didn't say He freed the captives but rather Jesus took something captive. What did He take captive, was it not that which kept man in bondage?
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. (Heb 2:1 KJV)
Jesus defeated Satan in death (heart of the earth) and took away the power of death that kept men in bondage or captivity to Satan. Because of Christ's victory over Satan man is no longer in captivity to Satan, but belongs to God again. from this it seems Jesus lead captivity not captives captive.
Butch5
Member
This whole issue can be summed up with two passages of Scripture.
7 And the LORDGod formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJV)
God formed man from the dust of the ground. The passage doesn;t say God formed a body from the dust of the ground it says God formed man. Whatever man is he consists of the physical elements of the ground. There is nothing mentioned here that is immaterial.
The second passage is just as clear.
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
(Luk 24:37-39 NKJ)
Jesus plainly states that a spirit does not have flesh and bone, therefore, man cannot be a spirit living in a flesh body.
7 And the LORDGod formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Gen 2:1 KJV)
God formed man from the dust of the ground. The passage doesn;t say God formed a body from the dust of the ground it says God formed man. Whatever man is he consists of the physical elements of the ground. There is nothing mentioned here that is immaterial.
The second passage is just as clear.
37 But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 "Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have."
(Luk 24:37-39 NKJ)
Jesus plainly states that a spirit does not have flesh and bone, therefore, man cannot be a spirit living in a flesh body.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Have you all noticed that everything that Satan said they would get by eating of the tree...they already had?! They were already immortal, if they needed to know something...they walked with God, all they had to do was ask and learn. They were already 'as Gods' having been created in His image...
What a double talker the enemy is.
What a double talker the enemy is.
Edward
2024 Supporter
He was talking to them on a level that they could understand. His flesh body was raised also. The scripture doesn't unequivocally say that man can not be a spirit inside of a flesh body.
Butch5
Member
He said it right there in the passage a spirit does not have flesh and bone. The logical conclusion is that if one has flesh and or bone they are not a spirit.
Edward
2024 Supporter
Depends on perspective I suppose. Scripture does say that we have three parts, body/soul/spirit.
Okay, so spirit does not have flesh and bone. true that. But is that standing alone as a spirit? Does is answer the question of can a spirit enter a flesh and bone body?
What makes you so sure that our consciousness is in our flesh body? Doctors and scientists do not even know this. They are searching for the source of consciousness.
We could say that flesh and bone do not have clothes. But can flesh and bone put clothes on and wear them?
Butch5
Member
Yes he is.
Butch5
Member
But the Scriptures also reveal that one of those is composed of the other two, therefore, we are not three parts but rather two.
We know from Scripture that a spirit can enter a body, but I don't believe that is relevant to the question, is man a spirit.
They should look in the Scriptures. It is the breath of God that gives man consciousness. The man had no life until God breathed into him the breath of lives.
That's true but Jesus said a spirit does not have flesh and bone, so I don't see how it could put then on.
Edward
2024 Supporter
So if consciousness is in the flesh, what are we to do with the thousands of NDE testimonies that are out there? Do they all lie? Is it mass hypnosis? Now of course it is reasonable to assume that a certain percentage of them are fraudulent, not all of can be imo. All of them are very similar also.
Edward
2024 Supporter
So, if it is the breath of God which gives man's consciousness...how can you be so sure that the consciousness arises from the flesh? Conclusively, not a flesh minded logical assumption?
As to your second statement here...me neither brother, me neither, however, with us not knowing much about how spirits live and function (the spiritual realm)...how can we be so sure that they can not?
Deborah13
Member
This is true a spirit does not have flesh and bone. That doesn't not mean flesh and bone does not have a spirit and a spirit given to them by God.
Paul doesn't say he prays and sings with the Holy Spirit, he says in prays and sings with his own spirit.
1Co 14:14 for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful.
The Textus Receptus, Byzantine Majority, Alexandrian, Hort and Westcott all say the same thing.
ean gar proseucwmai glwssh to pneuma mou proseucetai o de nouV mou akarpoV estin
Literally, 'spirit my' and 'mind my'.
Not only does he say they are his own but he clearly sees a difference between the spirit and the mind.
In the Thessalonian scripture where he says
1Th 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;
autoV de o qeoV thV eirhnhV agiasai umaV oloteleiV kai oloklhron umwn to pneuma kai h yuch kai to swma amemptwV en th parousia tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou thrhqeih
you and your
If our spirit and soul are God's breathe of life, why would God's breathe need to be sancitified?
Paul doesn't say he prays and sings with the Holy Spirit, he says in prays and sings with his own spirit.
1Co 14:14 for if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit doth pray, and my understanding is unfruitful.
The Textus Receptus, Byzantine Majority, Alexandrian, Hort and Westcott all say the same thing.
ean gar proseucwmai glwssh to pneuma mou proseucetai o de nouV mou akarpoV estin
Literally, 'spirit my' and 'mind my'.
Not only does he say they are his own but he clearly sees a difference between the spirit and the mind.
In the Thessalonian scripture where he says
1Th 5:23 and the God of the peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit, and soul, and body, be preserved unblameably in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ;
autoV de o qeoV thV eirhnhV agiasai umaV oloteleiV kai oloklhron umwn to pneuma kai h yuch kai to swma amemptwV en th parousia tou kuriou hmwn ihsou cristou thrhqeih
you and your
If our spirit and soul are God's breathe of life, why would God's breathe need to be sancitified?
Edward
2024 Supporter
good point Deborah. Personally, I think that our "mind" is within our soul. Also, our personality, preferences, and character. The Spirit giveth life, we feed and develop our personality and so forth within our "soul" and we live (temporarily of course) in a flesh body. Three parts, just like the trinity, in Gods image.
When we die (fleshly) our body returns to dust, our spirit returns to God, and our person/consciousness and so forth, our "soul" is what is redeemed and is judged and is granted life or condemned.
This is a good thread and topic. It has made me think and clear out some of the cobwebs about it, which were many indeed before.
I think I have a good handle on it now. We are cultivating our own soul while here on earth. In a sense, one may say, we have not yet been created, we are doing this now, and it is a war within us taking place. Which one wins? Well, whichever one you feed more, like the old Cherokee proverb.
When we die (fleshly) our body returns to dust, our spirit returns to God, and our person/consciousness and so forth, our "soul" is what is redeemed and is judged and is granted life or condemned.
This is a good thread and topic. It has made me think and clear out some of the cobwebs about it, which were many indeed before.
I think I have a good handle on it now. We are cultivating our own soul while here on earth. In a sense, one may say, we have not yet been created, we are doing this now, and it is a war within us taking place. Which one wins? Well, whichever one you feed more, like the old Cherokee proverb.
Our consciousness is part of the flesh.good point Deborah. Personally, I think that our "mind" is within our soul. Also, our personality, preferences, and character. The Spirit giveth life, we feed and develop our personality and so forth within our "soul" and we live (temporarily of course) in a flesh body. Three parts, just like the trinity, in Gods image.
When we die (fleshly) our body returns to dust, our spirit returns to God, and our person/consciousness and so forth, our "soul" is what is redeemed and is judged and is granted life or condemned.
This is a good thread and topic. It has made me think and clear out some of the cobwebs about it, which were many indeed before.
I think I have a good handle on it now. We are cultivating our own soul while here on earth. In a sense, one may say, we have not yet been created, we are doing this now, and it is a war within us taking place. Which one wins? Well, whichever one you feed more, like the old Cherokee proverb.
When we die, however we communicate with God will not be our consciousness as we know it, because that is part of the flesh.
We only know consciousness and life because of the Spirit God puts in us.
Trying to put consciousness outside of God's Spirit is not found in Scripture.
I think if you can put your finger on your soul you'll have the answer.
Edward
2024 Supporter
I'm not sure I understand you brother. If our consciousness is part of the flesh, then how could it not be outside of Gods Spirit? Either i totally missed what you said, or you contradicted yourself?
and I thought so much of what is being said is entirely vague and non-specific. This is a confusing subject for sure.
One thing i am sure of...consciousness is not 100 dependent upon the flesh, for two reasons. One, NDE's, there's too many of them for all of them to be lies. Two, People being taken up in the spirit for various reasons, visions and visitations and so forth. The flesh may indeed play a role in consciousness in order for us to live as men, but consciousness (of a sort at least) is possible apart from the flesh.
I think the real truth will be revealed to us eventually.
Amen brother.