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Body, Soul, and Spirit

I agree, but that consciousness cannot be the same as we know it now since our present consciousness is due to our brain and senses which are part of the body.
I have often thought of this.
We can know that we are in the presence of God, communicate with him, and experience a peace that surpasses all understanding.
But it will not be the same as we now know it.
This is what I think, anyway.

We have consciousness of the natural world by our five natural sense that are connected to the brain.

We have conscious awareness of ourself through our soul, which many understand to be our mind will and emotions.

We have conscious awareness of God and the spirit world through our spirit.


That's the way I see it, anyway.
 
I agree, but that consciousness cannot be the same as we know it now since our present consciousness is due to our brain and senses which are part of the body.
I have often thought of this.
We can know that we are in the presence of God, communicate with him, and experience a peace that surpasses all understanding.
But it will not be the same as we now know it.
This is what I think, anyway.

That's pretty much where I am at on this also. The brain does play a function (thanks to Adam & Eve), however, I do not think that brain is necessary for continued life, nor do I think that "we" can not live without a brain. We just don't know the connection between brain (flesh) and spirit and how it works and so forth.
 
I came across Psalms 107:4-6. In verse 5 it says "Hungry and thirsty their soul fainted in them". It sounds like it's saying that their soul and what ever it fainted into is something different?
 
Oh I understand what you mean brother, I just can't swallow it as a truth. The consciousness of man has been shown scripturally to be able to be apart from the flesh, like when people are taken up in the spirit.

And I agree, that we can not make doctrine on things we don't know. But isn't this what you have done, by saying that yours is a "logical conclusion"?

Not at all. Everything I've stated can be found clearly stated in Scripture. I've not assumed anything nor have I used inferences, I've used clear statements from Scripture. You said, "The consciousness of man has been shown scripturally to be able to be apart from the flesh, like when people are taken up in the spirit". Can you provide any indisputable evidence for this? The only two that I know of are Paul and John and Paul said he didn't know if it was in the body or not. John was seeing a vision.

If man's consciousness is not in his brain then why does a blow to the head know one unconscious? If it was some spiritual thing then no blow to the head should be able to knock one unconscious. Also, why does brain damage affect one's mental capacities if the consciousness is spiritual and not of the brain?
 
Sorry if I misunderstood.
But you said the electricity is not the computer.
Bad analogy.
Without electricity, the computer is not a computer as we know it.
Without the spirit of God, man is not man as we know it.

The consciousness of the computer which is the software is very much a part of the hardware and the electricity.
The consciousness of man which is the soul is very much a part of the body and the spirit of God.

My point is that a computer is still a computer without electricity, it may not work but it is still a computer. Electricity exists wholly apart from any computer and as such is not part of the computer but when it is flowing through the computer the computer comes to life.
 
My point is that a computer is still a computer without electricity, it may not work but it is still a computer. Electricity exists wholly apart from any computer and as such is not part of the computer but when it is flowing through the computer the computer comes to life.


You actually don't know if a computer is a computer unless you yourself witness it COMPUTE.

For that to happen you need electricity.

Otherwise it is just a box that does nothing.


JLB
 
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt here and say...maybe. :)
But in the same vein, you should be able to consider that..."or it could be the truth"
:)

According to the Scriptures I don't see any way it can be true. What is claimed in the many of these simply is not what the Scriptures say.
 
I came across Psalms 107:4-6. In verse 5 it says "Hungry and thirsty their soul fainted in them". It sounds like it's saying that their soul and what ever it fainted into is something different?

Hi Jeff,

The word soul is used in different ways in the Scriptures. Sometimes it, literal, sometimes it's figurative. It's also translated differently depending on how it's used. When it's used abstractly it is often translated life, when used concretely it is often translated being. You posted, "Hungry and thirsty their soul fainted in them". If we were to put this in a modern vernacular we could say, "they were starving to death" or "dying of thirst". We're not really starving or thirsting to death, it's an expression to say we're either really hungry or thirsty. The words "soul fainted" could be compared to the word death in our modern example.
 
Not at all. Everything I've stated can be found clearly stated in Scripture. I've not assumed anything nor have I used inferences, I've used clear statements from Scripture. You said, "The consciousness of man has been shown scripturally to be able to be apart from the flesh, like when people are taken up in the spirit". Can you provide any indisputable evidence for this? The only two that I know of are Paul and John and Paul said he didn't know if it was in the body or not. John was seeing a vision.

If man's consciousness is not in his brain then why does a blow to the head know one unconscious? If it was some spiritual thing then no blow to the head should be able to knock one unconscious. Also, why does brain damage affect one's mental capacities if the consciousness is spiritual and not of the brain?

I think you did brother, in post #549
"He said it right there in the passage a spirit does not have flesh and bone. The logical conclusion is that if one has flesh and or bone they are not a spirit."

That's an inference. :wink

I do believe that the indisputable evidence has been shown by scripture. That some wont receive it and question it is another matter, lol.

As I have said in previous posts, i do think the brain does serve a function, but is not a primary function of consciousness or life. We are subject to our "tent" while in it, unless God takes us up in the spirit or some such. Like being in a truck, if it dies, the man is still inside, he could sit there in it, or get out and walk, lol.
 
Oh, about John being taken up to see the future in revelation...what makes you so sure it was a vision? The KJV Revelation does not have the word vision in it, in relation to John in chapter 1. It just says he was in the spirit.

I thought there was another scripture...Elijah? Elisha? in the OT where he was caught up quite a few times to go see things, and once said something to the effect of taken up out of the top of his head or something similar? I'll look for that. If anyone else knows of which scripture i speak, please post it.

Oh and as a side note, here is what Strongs says about the word "Spirit"

(G4151) Spirit (as used in Revelation 1:10)
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

The last word is "mind" Huh. Wonder if that's significant? :yes
 
Not at all. Everything I've stated can be found clearly stated in Scripture. I've not assumed anything nor have I used inferences, I've used clear statements from Scripture. You said, "The consciousness of man has been shown scripturally to be able to be apart from the flesh, like when people are taken up in the spirit". Can you provide any indisputable evidence for this? The only two that I know of are Paul and John and Paul said he didn't know if it was in the body or not. John was seeing a vision.

If man's consciousness is not in his brain then why does a blow to the head know one unconscious? If it was some spiritual thing then no blow to the head should be able to knock one unconscious. Also, why does brain damage affect one's mental capacities if the consciousness is spiritual and not of the brain?

John was caught up to heaven and shown the future.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-3

Moses and Elijah were also in the Spirit and appeared to Jesus and His disciples.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:1-3

and again -

The rich man and Lazarus and Abraham...
 
Hi Jeff,

The word soul is used in different ways in the Scriptures. Sometimes it, literal, sometimes it's figurative. It's also translated differently depending on how it's used. When it's used abstractly it is often translated life, when used concretely it is often translated being. You posted, "Hungry and thirsty their soul fainted in them". If we were to put this in a modern vernacular we could say, "they were starving to death" or "dying of thirst". We're not really starving or thirsting to death, it's an expression to say we're either really hungry or thirsty. The words "soul fainted" could be compared to the word death in our modern example.

Thanks Butch, that makes sense.
 
John was caught up to heaven and shown the future.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-3

Moses and Elijah were also in the Spirit and appeared to Jesus and His disciples.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:1-3

and again -

The rich man and Lazarus and Abraham...

I think Moses and Elijah is the strongest proof that we have in scripture for someone being alive after the physical body has died in Moses' case.
 
I think Moses and Elijah is the strongest proof that we have in scripture for someone being alive after the physical body has died in Moses' case.
Do you think that in their case, it might be special circumstances as Elijah was taken up into heaven. And it is said of Moses:

and he buried him in the valley in the land of Moab opposite Beth-peor; but no one knows the place of his burial to this day. Deuteronomy 34:6 (ESV)

There are many who think that Moses didn't actually die, but was actually assumed into heaven. This is a common thought throughout Jewish literature, and the Transfiguration event would jive with that interpretation as Elijah was also assumed into heaven.

I personally don't know as it seems as though he died, though it also says in Jude 1:9 that Michael the Archangel and Satan disputed over the body of Moses (some suppose this could be figurative to be referring to the Law of Moses).

In any case, it's a mysterious circumstance and difficult to make doctrine off of events such as this that are shrouded in mystery.
 
I think Moses and Elijah is the strongest proof that we have in scripture for someone being alive after the physical body has died in Moses' case.

No it's not proof at all. Where in this scripture does it say Abraham's bosom.

THE TRANSFIGURATION - Matt 17:1-13

This scripture is a vision of what is to come.
It's describing the rapture and the first resurrection.
A vision is described as (that which will or may come to be), (anticipation)..

vi·sion - noun
1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination ( def 1 ) .
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.

Transfiguration and transformation both come from the Greek verb metamorphoo, meaning “to change into another form.”

While the transfiguration doesn’t directly give us information on the state of the dead, it retains theological significance nonetheless. When Peter recounted his experience in 2 Peter 1:16–18, he writes that he witnessed Christ’s coming at that time. In other words, he understood the experience to represent the return of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of God’s people who will be present at that miraculous event: Moses represents the “dead in Christ” who rise to new life, and Elijah represents “those who are alive and remain” who will be translated to heaven and eternal life without ever experiencing death in the first place (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Understanding that the transfiguration is a representation of the second coming of Christ also helps us understand Christ’s promise that “some standing here … shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God,” spoken a few days before the transfiguration (Luke 9:27).

When we understand the profound significance of this event in light of what Moses and Elijah represent, we can gain an understanding of the nature of death as a result. There would be no need of a bodily resurrection if everyone immediately went to heaven to live in Christ’s presence at death; similarly, translation to heaven would have no special significance because everyone would go to heaven immediately upon death. Moses and Elijah act as evidence that death brings a sleep of unconsciousness while the sleeping saints await the return of Jesus Christ.

Moses upon the mount of transfiguration was a witness to Christ’s victory over sin and death. He represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just. Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ’s second coming, and who will be “changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;” when “this mortal must put on immortality,” and “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. Jesus was clothed with the light of heaven, as He will appear when He shall come “the second time without sin unto salvation.” For He will come “in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Hebrews 9:28, KJV; Mark 8:38. The Saviour’s promise to the disciples was now fulfilled. Upon the mount the future kingdom of glory was represented in miniature—Christ the King, Moses a representative of the risen saints, and Elijah of the translated ones.
 
John was caught up to heaven and shown the future.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-3

No, this is actually speaking of John being caught up in a vision in the first heaven, the earth's atmosphere. Not into the third heaven, where Paul was caught up. Though this as before is to be understood in a visionary way, in like manner as Ezekiel was lifted up by the Spirit between the earth and the heavens; and so John in a vision, was called up from Patmos into the air, where he had a representation of the church made unto him. The message of the vision given was the seven year great tribulation.
 
I think you did brother, in post #549
"He said it right there in the passage a spirit does not have flesh and bone. The logical conclusion is that if one has flesh and or bone they are not a spirit."

That's an inference. :wink

I do believe that the indisputable evidence has been shown by scripture. That some wont receive it and question it is another matter, lol.

As I have said in previous posts, i do think the brain does serve a function, but is not a primary function of consciousness or life. We are subject to our "tent" while in it, unless God takes us up in the spirit or some such. Like being in a truck, if it dies, the man is still inside, he could sit there in it, or get out and walk, lol.


Flesh VS Spirit is one of the hardest things to understand, It actually means forgetting our 3D sense of reality and how things "work". And realizing that God makes it all work supernaturally somehow. As if by magic or something. Not a tangable perceivable cause and effect like physical reality, no beginning or end. You said it best in that other thread, about the kingdom of God is a connection of the heart to the spirit that is clearly not in this dimension. Letting go of ones scientific know how is like making yourself a little child. Which is exactly what Jesus said we have to do to enter the kingdom of God. On the outside this is a concept that others will argue simple cannot exist. And thats because they are in flesh thinking with the carnal mind.
 
No it's not proof at all. Where in this scripture does it say Abraham's bosom.

I didn't mention anything about Abraham's bosom.

THE TRANSFIGURATION - Matt 17:1-13

This scripture is a vision of what is to come.
It's describing the rapture and the first resurrection.
A vision is described as (that which will or may come to be), (anticipation)..

vi·sion - noun
1. the act or power of sensing with the eyes; sight.
2. the act or power of anticipating that which will or may come to be: prophetic vision; the vision of an entrepreneur.
3. an experience in which a personage, thing, or event appears vividly or credibly to the mind, although not actually present, often under the influence of a divine or other agency: a heavenly messenger appearing in a vision. Compare hallucination ( def 1 ) .
4. something seen or otherwise perceived during such an experience: The vision revealed its message.
5. a vivid, imaginative conception or anticipation: visions of wealth and glory.

Transfiguration and transformation both come from the Greek verb metamorphoo, meaning “to change into another form.”

While the transfiguration doesn’t directly give us information on the state of the dead, it retains theological significance nonetheless. When Peter recounted his experience in 2 Peter 1:16–18, he writes that he witnessed Christ’s coming at that time. In other words, he understood the experience to represent the return of Jesus Christ. Moses and Elijah represent the two classes of God’s people who will be present at that miraculous event: Moses represents the “dead in Christ” who rise to new life, and Elijah represents “those who are alive and remain” who will be translated to heaven and eternal life without ever experiencing death in the first place (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Understanding that the transfiguration is a representation of the second coming of Christ also helps us understand Christ’s promise that “some standing here … shall not taste death till they see the kingdom of God,” spoken a few days before the transfiguration (Luke 9:27).

When we understand the profound significance of this event in light of what Moses and Elijah represent, we can gain an understanding of the nature of death as a result. There would be no need of a bodily resurrection if everyone immediately went to heaven to live in Christ’s presence at death; similarly, translation to heaven would have no special significance because everyone would go to heaven immediately upon death. Moses and Elijah act as evidence that death brings a sleep of unconsciousness while the sleeping saints await the return of Jesus Christ.

Moses upon the mount of transfiguration was a witness to Christ’s victory over sin and death. He represented those who shall come forth from the grave at the resurrection of the just. Elijah, who had been translated to heaven without seeing death, represented those who will be living upon the earth at Christ’s second coming, and who will be “changed—in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet;” when “this mortal must put on immortality,” and “this corruptible must put on incorruption.” 1 Corinthians 15:51-53. Jesus was clothed with the light of heaven, as He will appear when He shall come “the second time without sin unto salvation.” For He will come “in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.” Hebrews 9:28, KJV; Mark 8:38. The Saviour’s promise to the disciples was now fulfilled. Upon the mount the future kingdom of glory was represented in miniature—Christ the King, Moses a representative of the risen saints, and Elijah of the translated ones.

I think that some people have a hard time with believing there is a spiritual realm that they can't see with their physical eyes and that sometimes the Lord allows men to see into this realm even when they are wide awake, not dreaming or in some kind of a stupor of some sort. They seem to think that if it says vision that it is not actually there at that present moment. At all visions are of future events even though they may give insight into future circumstances or events.

Mat 17:9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

G3705 - horama - a sight, a vision
Something that they saw, or gazed upon.

Mat 17:4 And Peter answering said to Jesus, `Sir, it is good to us to be here; if thou wilt, we may make here three booths--for thee one, and for Moses one, and one for Elijah.'
Mat 17:5 While he is yet speaking, lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son, --the Beloved, in whom I did delight; hear him.'
Mat 17:6 And the disciples having heard, did fall upon their face, and were exceedingly afraid,

When they wanted to worship all three, the Father set them straight immediately, they Heard and physically responded to that voice they heard.
 
I didn't mention anything about Abraham's bosom.

I think that some people have a hard time with believing there is a spiritual realm that they can't see with their physical eyes and that sometimes the Lord allows men to see into this realm even when they are wide awake, not dreaming or in some kind of a stupor of some sort. They seem to think that if it says vision that it is not actually there at that present moment. At all visions are of future events even though they may give insight into future circumstances or events.

Mat 17:9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.'

G3705 - horama - a sight, a vision
Something that they saw, or gazed upon.

Mat 17:4 And Peter answering said to Jesus, `Sir, it is good to us to be here; if thou wilt, we may make here three booths--for thee one, and for Moses one, and one for Elijah.'
Mat 17:5 While he is yet speaking, lo, a bright cloud overshadowed them, and lo, a voice out of the cloud, saying, `This is My Son, --the Beloved, in whom I did delight; hear him.'
Mat 17:6 And the disciples having heard, did fall upon their face, and were exceedingly afraid,

When they wanted to worship all three, the Father set them straight immediately, they Heard and physically responded to that voice they heard.

Very good Deb. Good post. The transfiguration is not proof that spirits are living in the third heaven right now. Visions are visions.
 
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