Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Deborah13]

Very good Deb. Good post. The transfiguration is not proof that spirits are living in the third heaven right now. Visions are visions.

lol,

That vision said to me that those men were alive and live on after death and after being removed from this earth. Or Moses had been resurrected, take your pick.

 

[DRS81]

lol,

That vision said to me that those men were alive and live on after death and after being removed from this earth. Or Moses had been resurrected, take your pick.

and what is it saying now to you.

 

[Deborah13]

and what is it saying now to you.

The same thing.

"That vision said to me that those men were alive and live on after death and after being removed from this earth. Or Moses had been resurrected, take your pick."

Restated....
"That vision said and says to me that those men were/are alive and live on after death and after being removed from this earth. Or Moses had been resurrected, take your pick."

 

[DRS81]

The same thing.

"That vision said to me that those men were alive and live on after death and after being removed from this earth. Or Moses had been resurrected, take your pick."

Restated....
"That vision said and says to me that those men were/are alive and live on after death and after being removed from this earth. Or Moses had been resurrected, take your pick."

Do you believe Moses is living in the third heaven (right now) as we speak.

 

[Deborah13]

Do you believe Moses is living in the third heaven (right now) as we speak.

I do not know where Moses is right now as we speak, do you?

 

[DRS81]

I do not know where Moses is right now as we speak, do you?

He's dead in Hades awaiting judgment at the first resurrection.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

He's dead in Hades awaiting judgment at the first resurrection.

Hi DRS81,

In Hebrews 12:1, it says the following:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1 (ESV)

Who do you believe the "great cloud of witnesses," are?

 

[DRS81]

Hi DRS81,

In Hebrews 12:1, it says the following:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1 (ESV)

Who do you believe the "great cloud of witnesses," are?

I'm not sure. Who do you think it is.

 

[JLB]

No, this is actually speaking of John being caught up in a vision in the first heaven, the earth's atmosphere. Not into the third heaven, where Paul was caught up. Though this as before is to be understood in a visionary way, in like manner as Ezekiel was lifted up by the Spirit between the earth and the heavens; and so John in a vision, was called up from Patmos into the air, where he had a representation of the church made unto him. The message of the vision given was the seven year great tribulation.

Oh, so God's Throne is in earth's atmosphere?

John was caught up to heaven, not earth. LOL.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Oh, so God's Throne is in earth's atmosphere?

John was caught up to heaven, not earth. LOL.


JLB

It was a vision JLB, just like the transfiguration.

 

[jeff77]

Hi DRS81,

In Hebrews 12:1, it says the following:

Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, Hebrews 12:1 (ESV)

Who do you believe the "great cloud of witnesses," are?

The witnesses could be Christians that have finished the race that are awaiting our arrival in heaven. It could be angels but I doubt it.

 

[JLB]

It was a vision JLB, just like the transfiguration.

Sorry Bro,

The scripture says - After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-2


John was caught up to the third heaven like Paul was and saw and described what he saw.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

Sorry Bro,

The scripture says - After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-2


John was caught up to the third heaven like Paul was and saw and described what he saw.


JLB

John didn't have a vision from heaven, he had a vision OF heaven (inside) the first heaven. There's a difference. He was in the spirit because that's where God works, in the spirit realm bro. John was already in the Spirit, but now he received a fresh outpouring of grace, enabling him to see yet more deeply into the mysteries of the kingdom of God. An example of God working in the spirit is Gal 5:16. What happens to a believer when he walks in the spirit and not the flesh. He receives anointing and grace from the Father. - DRS81

 

[Edward]

Flesh VS Spirit is one of the hardest things to understand, It actually means forgetting our 3D sense of reality and how things "work". And realizing that God makes it all work supernaturally somehow. As if by magic or something. Not a tangable perceivable cause and effect like physical reality, no beginning or end. You said it best in that other thread, about the kingdom of God is a connection of the heart to the spirit that is clearly not in this dimension. Letting go of ones scientific know how is like making yourself a little child. Which is exactly what Jesus said we have to do to enter the kingdom of God. On the outside this is a concept that others will argue simple cannot exist. And thats because they are in flesh thinking with the carnal mind.

That's right brother. And just because we can not see it, doesn't mean that it isn't real or exist. We're on house arrest in our tents (bodies) and are restricted to this so called natural dimension. Scripture says we wrestly not agains flesh and blood but against principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places...the spiritual realm is more real than our natural realm. Some have been granted the privilege of being able to discern it. I think a lot of times when people get "a feeling" about something, that it is their spiritual senses working for them and they don't realize it.

We have to cultivate this perception (and pray to have our eyes opened!)

Hebrews 5:14
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil./(KJV)

That's what I think this is talking about. We're to live for the spirit...that's what this is all about.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm not sure. Who do you think it is.

From the context, I would say it is all those whom it spoke of in Hebrews 11, the heroes and martyrs of the faith.

I believe in soul sleep, but only for the wicked as a result of what Jesus did. The thief on the cross would that very same day be with Jesus in Paradise, and it is the OT saints united with Christ in the intermediate state.

 

[JLB]

John didn't have a vision from heaven, he had a vision OF heaven (inside) the first heaven. There's a difference. He was in the spirit because that's where God works, in the spirit realm bro. John was already in the Spirit, but now he received a fresh outpouring of grace, enabling him to see yet more deeply into the mysteries of the kingdom of God. An example of God working in the spirit is Gal 5:16. What happens to a believer when he walks in the spirit and not the flesh. He receives anointing and grace from the Father. - DRS81

John was summoned "up here".

Up here is where God's throne is.

God's throne is in the third heaven.

John was caught up to the third heaven.

Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus and Peter.

Abraham, Lazarus and the rich man were in the heart of the earth even though their bodies had died.


JLB

 

[DRS81]

I believe in soul sleep, but only for the wicked as a result of what Jesus did. The thief on the cross would that very same day be with Jesus in Paradise, and it is the OT saints united with Christ in the intermediate state.

If Jesus went to heaven that day when he died why did he tell Mary he hadn't yet ascended to his Father yet? John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

John was summoned "up here".

Up here is where God's throne is.

God's throne is in the third heaven.

John was caught up to the third heaven.

Alright, let's say hypothetically John was taken to the third heaven. Does scripture say he stayed there and lived there? No. He received a vision and then went back to earth and lived out his days. In 2 Cor 12 did the man that was caught up in the third heaven stay there and live there? No. He heard the voice of God and then went back to earth and lived out his days. Paul even said, only God knows if he was in the body or out of the body. But the point is, is that both men did not remain in the third heaven to live there. 2 Cor 12:1-4 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

 

[Edward]

If Jesus went to heaven that day when he died why did he tell Mary he hadn't yet ascended to his Father yet? John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

Perhaps because he hadn't yet ascended to the father yet? because even though he lived as a man, that he didn't have the same role as a man that we do? from what I understand, He went down and preached to the souls in the underworld and emptied Abrahams bosom.

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

With all due respect brother, and in brotherly love, please take this lightly, ok? But...really? Surely you jest brother. Just comforting words and no truth? I'm sorry, but I can't recall Jesus speaking like that to people.



Alright, let's say hypothetically John was taken to the third heaven. Does scripture say he stayed there and lived there? No. He received a vision and then went back to earth and lived out his days. In 2 Cor 12 did the man that was caught up in the third heaven stay there and live there? No. He heard the voice of God and then went back to earth and lived out his days. Paul even said, only God knows if he was in the body or out of the body. But the point is, is that both men did not remain in the third heaven to live there. 2 Cor 12:1-4 I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell.

Why would he have to stay and live there for it to be true? Why couldn't God take Him forward in time to see what is to be in the hereafter and then return him??? That baffles me why you would imply that he would have to stay and live there??? Am I missing something in your point?

 

[Deborah13]

If Jesus went to heaven that day when he died why did he tell Mary he hadn't yet ascended to his Father yet? John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

Luk 23:42 and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'(kingdom)
Luk 23:43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

So when do you believe Christ reign (kingdom) began?

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.'
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate us into the reign (kingdom) of the Son of His love,

 

[Doulos Iesou]

If Jesus went to heaven that day when he died why did he tell Mary he hadn't yet ascended to his Father yet? John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

That is an interesting text, any many commentators are divided on exactly what it means. Perhaps the "paradise" described isn't heaven, but somewhere else. The Greek grammar in the passage in Luke is quite clear on that though. That the thief on the cross would be joining Jesus in "paradise," as this is prior to the resurrection, this would therefore denote some kind of spiritual intermediate existence.

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.” Luke 23:43 (ESV)

The thief received comfort though from a particular statement, that the very day he died, he would be together with Jesus in paradise. Jesus, who does not lie, nor do I think he exaggerates, told the man that he would be joined with him in paradise.

Also, why else would dying be a gain, unless one is immediately untied with Christ upon dying? Otherwise, dying isn't gain, but only being resurrected is.

I truly like to emphasize the resurrection, and I think the NT does as well. However, it seems that there is some mysterious intermediate state where we are at least united with Christ.

I'm open to the issue, and I don't have a deep bias on the subject as I have changed my mind in the past. I used to defend the idea of no intermediate state at all for believers, but I couldn't get around the Greek in Luke 23:43.