Body, Soul, and Spirit

[Butch5]

John was caught up to heaven and shown the future.

1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, "Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this." 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. Revelation 4:1-3

Moses and Elijah were also in the Spirit and appeared to Jesus and His disciples.

1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves; 2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him. Matthew 17:1-3

and again -

The rich man and Lazarus and Abraham...

We've been over these passages before. John said he was in the spirit. Moses and Elijah were not there, Jesus said it was a vision. However, even if they had been there they were not spirits. Notice Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for them. One doesn't make a tabernacle for a spirit, that is for a person. Also, either this was a vision or Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus. As far as Lazarus and the rich man, you've still not told me how they have body parts when their bodies are in the grave and they are supposedly somewhere else.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks Butch, that makes sense.

You're welcome!

 

[Deborah13]

We've been over these passages before. John said he was in the spirit. Moses and Elijah were not there, Jesus said it was a vision. However, even if they had been there they were not spirits. Notice Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for them. One doesn't make a tabernacle for a spirit, that is for a person. Also, either this was a vision or Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus. As far as Lazarus and the rich man, you've still not told me how they have body parts when their bodies are in the grave and they are supposedly somewhere else.

Hi Butch,
When it comes to Moses I don't agree.
I accept that the prophets such as Isaiah, Daniel, etc. saw visions of future events that I accept really happened just as God showed them they would. So in these cases they had visions of future events.
Now Jesus said the apostles had a vision, are all visions of future events or can they be a vision of current events, things happening in real time, as they happen. I believe they can.

 

[DRS81]

He went down and preached to the souls in the underworld and emptied Abrahams bosom.

Hi Edward, good afternoon. He emptied Abraham's bosom? What do you mean.

Why couldn't God take Him forward in time to see what is to be in the hereafter and then return him???

Well, according to scripture the body of Jesus didn't become alive again until three days later. John 2:19.
Do you have scripture that says his spirit went back and forth to heaven the same day he died?
Also, Luke 23:43 says today you will be with (me) in paradise. It says you will be with ME, not you will be with my spirit.

Luke 23:42 and he said to Jesus, `Remember me, lord, when thou mayest come in thy reign;'(kingdom)
Luk 23:43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'

So when do you believe Christ reign (kingdom) began?

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, `My kingdom is not of this world; if my kingdom were of this world, my officers had struggled that I might not be delivered up to Jews; but now my kingdom is not from hence.'
Col 1:13 who did rescue us out of the authority of the darkness, and did translate us into the reign (kingdom) of the Son of His love,

Hi Deborah. It's important to note there is two types of kingdom's within two different timelines. The first type of kingdom is spiritual and performs works through the Holy Spirit Luke 17:21. There's also the 1,000 year reign with Christ, and I believe the 1,000 year reign is what is being referred too in regards to the thief, because he was going to die soon.

The thief received comfort though from a particular statement, that the very day he died, he would be together with Jesus in paradise.

Hey Doulos, blessings.

Well, according to scripture the body of Jesus didn't become alive again until three days later. John 2:19.
Do you have scripture that says his spirit went back and forth to heaven the same day he died?
Also, Luke 23:43 says today you will be with (me) in paradise. It says you will be with ME, not you will be with my spirit.

- DRS81

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hey Doulos, blessings.

Well, according to scripture the body of Jesus didn't become alive again until three days later. John 2:19.
Do you have scripture that says his spirit went back and forth to heaven the same day he died?
Also, Luke 23:43 says today you will be with (me) in paradise. It says you will be with ME, not you will be with my spirit.

- DRS81

I don't see any distinction between him and his spirit. Jesus of course being God has two distinct natures, and he didn't cease to exist for three days. I don't see why he would need to indicate "his spirit," when both his spiritual and physical nature are him.

The operative word and most important to our discussion is the fact that he indicated the time of their being together in paradise, would be "today."

This would be my evidence that Jesus was with this man on that same day in a place described as "paradise."

I'm only going as far as the text says.

 

[Edward]

Hi Edward, good afternoon. He emptied Abraham's bosom? What do you mean.

Well, according to scripture the body of Jesus didn't become alive again until three days later. John 2:19.
Do you have scripture that says his spirit went back and forth to heaven the same day he died?
Also, Luke 23:43 says today you will be with (me) in paradise. It says you will be with ME, not you will be with my spirit...

- DRS81

It's held by some that Jesus emptied Abrahams bosom of the OT saints who believed during the three days that His body was dead. no one can prove it but it makes a certain kind of sense to me.

You think Jesus acually ceased to exist when He died on the cross? he died as a man brother, which is to say that His Spirit left his flesh body...He "gave up the Ghost".

No I don't. I don't think He went to heaven. I think He had business here on earth for those three days (under the earth?)

Luke 24:3 seems to make it clear brother. I mean, think about it...He didn't (doesn't) lie, does He?!
Define 'me'...Is me a flesh body? Is me my personality and consciousness? What?
Define 'Paradise'...some say Abraham's Bosom was Paradise. Paradise is paradise and could be many things, it doesn't have to be heaven. The third heaven would be paradise compared to this earth, lol.

 

[JLB]

We've been over these passages before. John said he was in the spirit. Moses and Elijah were not there, Jesus said it was a vision. However, even if they had been there they were not spirits. Notice Peter wanted to make a tabernacle for them. One doesn't make a tabernacle for a spirit, that is for a person. Also, either this was a vision or Moses and Elijah were resurrected before Jesus. As far as Lazarus and the rich man, you've still not told me how they have body parts when their bodies are in the grave and they are supposedly somewhere else.

Moses and Elijah were in the Spirit.

The spirit of Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus.

John was caught up to the third heaven like Paul.

Hi Edward, good afternoon. He emptied Abraham's bosom? What do you mean.

Well, according to scripture the body of Jesus didn't become alive again until three days later. John 2:19.
Do you have scripture that says his spirit went back and forth to heaven the same day he died?
Also, Luke 23:43 says today you will be with (me) in paradise. It says you will be with ME, not you will be with my spirit.

Hi Deborah. It's important to note there is two types of kingdom's within two different timelines. The first type of kingdom is spiritual and performs works through the Holy Spirit Luke 17:21. There's also the 1,000 year reign with Christ, and I believe the 1,000 year reign is what is being referred too in regards to the thief, because he was going to die soon.

Hey Doulos, blessings.

Well, according to scripture the body of Jesus didn't become alive again until three days later. John 2:19.
Do you have scripture that says his spirit went back and forth to heaven the same day he died?
Also, Luke 23:43 says today you will be with (me) in paradise. It says you will be with ME, not you will be with my spirit.

- DRS81

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. Matthew 12:40

And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Jesus was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights.

Jesus went to paradise on the day He was crucified.

Do you believe Jesus and the thief were asleep in paradise?

 

[DRS81]

No I don't. I don't think He went to heaven. I think He had business here on earth for those three days (under the earth?)

Ok, and I agree that Jesus had business to do for these three days. So if Jesus had business left over on earth for three days, how could he be with the thief in Paradise on the day he died. Jesus didn't lie because either way the thief will be granted eternal life. And since the thief is in his grave right now, he is not aware of time. Now read the following, and let me know what you think.....

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Hebrews 13:5
"Never will I leave you".

 

[jeff77]

Ok, and I agree that Jesus had business to do for these three days. So if Jesus had business left over on earth for three days, how could he be with the thief in Paradise on the day he died. Jesus didn't lie because either way the thief will be granted eternal life. And since the thief is in his grave right now, he is not aware of time. Now read the following, and let me know what you think.....

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

I understand what your saying, but just because Jesus had business to take care of doesn't mean that the thief wasn't in heaven with God who is also Jesus.

 

[Edward]

Ok, and I agree that Jesus had business to do for these three days. So if Jesus had business left over on earth for three days, how could he be with the thief in Paradise on the day he died. Jesus didn't lie because either way the thief will be granted eternal life. And since the thief is in his grave right now, he is not aware of time. Now read the following, and let me know what you think.....

I believe Jesus was simply using comforting words towards the thief. Can you imagine Jesus saying, "After the general resurrection, which will occur after an indefinite period that only the Father knows, you shall be with me in Paradise." What the thief asked Jesus was to be remembered in His kingdom (Luke 23:42), and this is exactly what Jesus promised him, thus the dying man received peace and comfort. This is the great promise of the gospel—to be with Jesus forever.

It could be a few different things. Perhaps after the thief died since he was with the Lord, that they went on spiritual time instead of earth time ( a day with the Lord is as a 1000 years and so forth), or, seeing as we know so little of the spiritual realm...maybe his spirit was in heaven also with the Lord as other scripture seems to indicate in Ephesians 2:4-6. How do you know that spirits can not be in two places at once? :wink

Two things we know for sure, one is that Jesus didn't lie to the thief, and the other is that since Jesus said this to the thief...that the thief, beyond his body that is, is not in the grave, he is with Jesus. Oh ok, three things! That life (consciousness) reaches beyond the flesh body, because either way it goes...more than 1000 years has passed since He said that to the thief, so if he is with Jesus, then consciousness is now proven to be a fact when the body is in the grave.

Have a blessed day brother! :yes

 

[Deborah13]

I understand what your saying, but just because Jesus had business to take care of doesn't mean that the thief wasn't in heaven with God who is also Jesus.

Hi Jeff,
I think Jesus had to be raised from the dead before anyone could enter heaven before the throne. Jesus had to be sitting on His throne first. imo

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Hi Jeff,
I think Jesus had to be raised from the dead before anyone could enter heaven before the throne. Jesus had to be sitting on His throne first. imo

What do you do with Luke 23:43, where Jesus told the thief that "today" he would be with him in paradise?

 

[Deborah13]

What do you do with Luke 23:43, where Jesus told the thief that "today" he would be with him in paradise?

I'm not thinking Paradise was actually heaven. I'm thinking it was more like where the OT saints were until after Jesus' resurrection. Maybe even Gan Eden.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I'm not thinking Paradise was actually heaven. I'm thinking it was more like where the OT saints were until after Jesus' resurrection. Maybe even Gan Eden.

The OT Saints went down to Sheol when they died. Would you like me to show you this?

 

[JLB]

The OT Saints went down to Sheol when they died. Would you like me to show you this?

Old Testament saints that were righteous went to Abrahams Bosom.

Old Testament people that were not like the rich man, went to hell.

JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm not thinking Paradise was actually heaven. I'm thinking it was more like where the OT saints were until after Jesus' resurrection. Maybe even Gan Eden.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Old Testament saints that were righteous went to Abrahams Bosom.

Old Testament people that were not like the rich man, went to hell.

JLB

Can you find me a reference to Abraham's Bosom outside of Luke 16, or any text that makes it seem like the OT saints were conscious after death?

Also, no one goes to hell until after the final punishment. I recommend a different translation other than the KJV.

 

[DRS81]

How do you know that spirits can not be in two places at once?

Do you have scripture to prove this..

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

You will be with (me, Jesus Christ). When Jesus said this was he still in his body?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Do you have scripture to prove this..

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

You will be with (me, Jesus Christ). When Jesus said this was he still in his body?

If Jesus were to be separated from his body and just be a Spirit, would that be someone else then? His spirit isn't a possession, it is him.

Did Jesus cease to exist for three days?