What Im stating is in scripture, just because it doesnt have the phraseology you requested doesnt mean its not. The concept of the Trinity is in the bible but no scripture uses the word trinity !
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By Nature Children of Wrath as others !
- Thread starter brightfame52
- Start date
Nothing has changed , the elect were children of wrath by nature, however they were never under Gods wrath and I have explained why !
Once again:
Unbelievers Christ died for aren't under Gods wrath, nor headed to Gods wrath, they are going to be converted to Christ, given faith. They never were under wrath either !
Im not missing anything, its in your imagination.
You are off to the races on another subject friend. Im saying the elect, even as by nature children of wrath as others, are never under Gods wrath as others are, the others being of course the non elect !
Post #33 you said: If we are one of the Elect, God the Father Judged Christ for our sins. Thats what the Cross was all about, Christ was Judged, died for the Sins of His People , God charged Christ with their sins.
Nowhere in scripture does it say the children of wrath are of God's own or even gives an inkling of mentioning such a thing. Do you understand the concept of being Spiritually born again in order to inherit the kingdom of God? Do you understand what it means to walk in the Holy Spirit being obedient to God's commands?
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
We have two natures. One is flesh nature of where we sin within the flesh as flesh is a filthy rag to God and then there is a Spiritual nature in us by being Spiritually born-again, John 3:3, that can not sin. The flesh does not inherit the kingdom of God as flesh is enmity (hostile enemy) against the Spirit as it is our Spiritual inner man by the rebirth that inherits the kingdom of God, John 3:5-7. This is why we must die daily to the flesh so when Christ returns and separates the wheat from the tares, or the sheep from the goats we who are wheat, and or sheep that hear His voice will be with God in his kingdom for ever and those who are among the tares, and or goats will be cast into the lake of fire to be with Satan, the beast and the false prophets forever, Matthew 25:31-46.
That which is born of the flesh being born from their mothers womb are born with a sin nature as we have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of the Lord being the children of wrath. Those who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit were in times past before being Spiritually renewed by the Holy Spirit were the children of wrath. Now through the Spiritual rebirth we are judged as being God's own by His grace through faith in whom Christ is our faith as we believe He is the Son of God.
I really can not understand why you do not understand what God's salvation through Christ is all about.
You are contradicting your self here. Children of wrath are children of wrath as there is no separate category and will all be cast into the lake of fire in God's final judgement. A child of God through the Spiritual rebirth can no longer be a child of wrath.
I said that, but you misrepresented me and said I said:
Thats not what I said, lets be honest and precise please when stating what someone said. If you dont remember just to the post and quote what was said !
I dont see your reasoning. Its plain as day that the Paul says that he and other elect, were children of wrath as others. Eph 2:3 !
Its crystal, I cant make you see that which is clarly written in black and white !
They are non-elect because they decided to remain the children of wrath.
Had they elected to follow the Good Shepherd, they would no longer be under God's impending wrath.
If the elect of God, who by nature are the children of wrath as others[the non elect] if they at anytime be under Gods wrath because of their sins and being children of wrath by nature, then it serves to reason that Gods wrath wasn't turned away by the atoning blood of His Dear Son, that His blood failed to satisfy His offended Justice for them, that His Blood failed to propitiate Him, to appease or turn away His Wrath on them. If that Blood didn't do it, then what does ? Is it the sinners act of believing that ultimately appeased Gods Wrath over and above the Blood of Christ ?18
Christ is the Savior for everyone in the world.
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11
Just one more attempt: you are confused as to how redemption is applied to the elect. It is through faith in Christ. The atoning blood is not applied to the elect until the elect hear the gospel and believe. Note what Paul says in Rom. 5:
:9 "Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him." This is the same context as v. 1 "having been justified by faith..." and so justification is by the atoning blood of Christ at the time a person believes. Note that it says "we shall be saved from the wrath of God." This confirms that an unbeliever is under God's wrath prior to spiritual rebirth, though he be among the elect. To be "saved from the wrath of God" means that a person is initially under that wrath that he shall be saved from.
Therefore, redemption must be applied to a person at a certain time in their life, that is, when they believe. If you claim that the elect have redemption applied to them while they are sons of disobedience, then why not simply expand the scope to every son of disobedience? You're just one step away from universalism. There has to be a reason why redemption is applied to the elect other than it is accomplished. If universal man does not have redemption applied to him, then neither does the elect while they are in the same condition of spirit as universal man.
Eph. 5:5-6 "For this you know with certainty, that no sexually immoral or impure or greedy person, which amounts to an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. See that no one deceives you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Prior to conversion, the elect is in the same condition of spirit as "the rest," because they are all unregenerate. So, if an elect person is an idolator (which we all were before our conversion), he has no inheritance in Christ's kingdom. We were all sons of disobedience, and therefore had the wrath of God hanging over us. We needed to be saved from it, and when we realized that need after hearing the gospel, we believed the gospel message, having hope in Christ, and thus was redemption applied to us. After that, we became godly people (as opposed to the idolators we once were). The wrath of God was turned away from us, because we were no longer sons of disobedience, having had redemption applied to us by means of spiritual rebirth. Therefore, it is the conversion that God does to the elect by means of His grace, that is the way God applies redemption to them.
Therefore, IMO your logic is bad, you are coming to a false conclusion about the scripture you cite, and your idea is likely hypercalvinistic heresy. I hope you are able to get off of your foolish commitment to the false idea you are teaching in your OP.
Did you understand the post ramifications ? What were they ?
Eph 2:3
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Now the Elect in their own persons by nature did incur wrath and the curse, as others, however thats the very thing that fell on Christ for them, which necessitated His Suretyship Heb 2:17, because the very wrath and curse they themselves incurred was true and actual.
Even though their sin actually bring about Gods wrath and curse for them, they were prevented by their transference unto Christ and His Suretyship, hence instead of them, He must drink of their due wrath and curse of the law in their behalf, for so we read 2 Cor 5:21;Gal 3:13;Heb 2:9-10 ! So therefore, though naturally, as others, they were being children of wrath, they because of Christs Suretyship, were never under Gods deserved Wrath and Curse ! If they were, that made Christs Suretyship null and void !23
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Now the Elect in their own persons by nature did incur wrath and the curse, as others, however thats the very thing that fell on Christ for them, which necessitated His Suretyship Heb 2:17, because the very wrath and curse they themselves incurred was true and actual.
Even though their sin actually bring about Gods wrath and curse for them, they were prevented by their transference unto Christ and His Suretyship, hence instead of them, He must drink of their due wrath and curse of the law in their behalf, for so we read 2 Cor 5:21;Gal 3:13;Heb 2:9-10 ! So therefore, though naturally, as others, they were being children of wrath, they because of Christs Suretyship, were never under Gods deserved Wrath and Curse ! If they were, that made Christs Suretyship null and void !23
I disagree, as per my explanation. Christ's suretyship applies only to the believer, at the time faith is established. There is no redemption even for the elect prior to their conversion, since redemption does not apply to unbelievers. You are assuming that the redemption of Christ applies to the elect prior to their regeneration, but no scripture assures that. If they died in their sins, they would not obtain redemption, just as any unbeliever (but God causes the elect to be converted). Redemption does not apply to any unbeliever. It does not render redemption null and void, since it is established in the elect at the time of their conversion, as I have explained previously. Therefore the conclusion you come to that God's wrath was never on the elect is a false conclusion, and an imposition on the text you cite.
Yeah we do disagree per my explanation !