Bible Study Cain and Abel

[Jesse]

Bell believes in Hell. But not as traditionally taught. I happen to concure with many of his points. Personally, and it should come as no surprise, but I take more of a Jewish view on the matter.

Ironically, people seem to like the traditional view of hell and if you try to bring in the idea of grace or mercy, they have a tendency to get upset, even vehement at times. Its all very odd indeed.

In a way, Bell reminds me of Paul. He ticks off the religious elite and shares the gospel to anyone!

My wife loved listening to Driscoll. I don't keep up on all them anymore.

I miss Driscoll's teachings too.

I am out there on exactly what hell is, except a separation form God.

What is the Jewish view?

 

[stovebolts]

I honestly thought he wrote a book about how there is no hell. In the article you posted he said he believed in hell "now".

I did not see where you posted your friend's book, can you direct me? Thanks.

Love wins and Velvet Elvis. Both were misunderstood.

 

[Jesse]

Love wins and Velvet Elvis. Both were misunderstood.

Wow....had no idea. Now I want to listen to him.

btw, Have you ever listened to Matt Chandler?

 

[jasonc]

Do we know how long it was from his kidnapping until he was on the scene again? I wonder how old he was when he was taken?

Imo, forgiving is an act of God.

it doesn't say.

jeff, the views of sheol and gehinom are going to be difficult to maneuver let alone accept from a jewish angle even if one doesn't teach the idea of universalism.

 

[Jesse]

it doesn't say.

jeff, the views of sheol and gehinom are going to be difficult to maneuver let alone accept from a jewish angle even if one doesn't teach the idea of universalism.

I was told by a jewish man that they were more concerned about the life now and so afterlife is vague.

But I was hoping someone had some information.....does no one know at all?

 

[jasonc]

I was told by a jewish man that they were more concerned about the life now and so afterlife is vague.

But I was hoping someone had some information.....does no one know at all?

I can since both Jeff and I have read this stuff. I have done the kaddish which is part of their view of sheol. However I wanted to when jeff had the time reconcile the views of sheol as purgatory with the bible first before I take that stance. its possible that prior to the cross that sheol was a such. however this gives credence to the catholic view of that and also a problem of that if Abraham wasn't forgiven by god for his sins or any saint that he or she would be in some level of sheol. which I don't fully agree with as God must overlook all sins to a degree when he declares one righteousness. the tzaddik are such people where they were so strong in the torah they didn't spend time in sheol but ascended straight into gan-eden.

yet the lord said that the saints all lived to God in the gospels concerning the resurrection of the saints.

 

[Jesse]

I can since both Jeff and I have read this stuff. I have done the kaddish which is part of their view of sheol

Would you like to share, maybe in another thread? I would be interested in learning this if either of you don't mind.

 

[jasonc]

Would you like to share, maybe in another thread? I would be interested in learning this if either of you don't mind.

I have edited my post. reread it. it not all of it. but the gist of it note gehenna and sheol can be interchanged in their thought , though gehenna is the lowest of the lowest level in sheol and is seen as the place of no return.

 

[smaller]

I was told by a jewish man that they were more concerned about the life now and so afterlife is vague.

But I was hoping someone had some information.....does no one know at all?

Technically speaking the Jews never believed in the eternal torment of people and still don't that I'm aware of. Again, generally speaking, they have views about post death cleansing of some sort for every person, lasting for a finite period of time.

 

[Willie T]

yes.potipher was the priest of on. pharaoh gave her to joseph.

The captain of the guard was also a priest? I'm getting confused.

 

[jasonc]

The captain of the guard was also a priest? I'm getting confused.

I will have to read the account again. being into channukah, josephs story is linked by the jews to channukah. I can post a link on what they say about him and why. it makes sense. its a long audio.

 

[Jesse]

I can since both Jeff and I have read this stuff. I have done the kaddish which is part of their view of sheol. However I wanted to when jeff had the time reconcile the views of sheol as purgatory with the bible first before I take that stance. its possible that prior to the cross that sheol was a such. however this gives credence to the catholic view of that and also a problem of that if Abraham wasn't forgiven by god for his sins or any saint that he or she would be in some level of sheol. which I don't fully agree with as God must overlook all sins to a degree when he declares one righteousness. the tzaddik are such people where they were so strong in the torah they didn't spend time in sheol but ascended straight into gan-eden.

yet the lord said that the saints all lived to God in the gospels concerning the resurrection of the saints.

What is gan-eden?

You agree with smaller's post that the Jews are basically universilism?

 

[jasonc]

What is gan-eden?

You agree with smaller's post that the Jews are basically universilism?

the sources I have read teach that and gan-eden is what the jews then and now call paradise.
its the idea of being with the Heshem in the garden of eden for a time until the bodily resurrection. note that jesus said he that overcometh shall sit with me in the garden with the tree of life.

 

[Jesse]

the sources I have read teach that and gan-eden is what the jews then and now call paradise.
its the idea of being with the Heshem in the garden of eden for a time until the bodily resurrection. note that jesus said he that overcometh shall sit with me in the garden with the tree of life.

What is the Heshem?

 

[jasonc]

What is the Heshem?

literally the Name. sometime when I post things about Jews I use their term. We know the Heshem as the YHWH. rather then say that name or spell the consonants they say Heshem, G-D, or L-RD and such like

 

[smaller]

What is gan-eden?

You agree with smaller's post that the Jews are basically universilism?

Anyone can read their views by Googling them. Hit Jews beliefs on hell and you'll find hundreds of reference sites. I've known their positions vaguely for a couple decades.

I DON'T think that is what the N.T. teaches. Neither do I think we discuss the topic very well. For example, where you may see eternal separation, I see there is no place apart from God.

We can read in Revelation 14: 9-12, that said torture transpires in the Presence of the Lamb, and is eternal in nature.

That also being said, I will remain hard pressed to see these matters past the known miscreants, the evil/wicked spirits we KNOW for a fact that will be thusly tortured, that being the devil and his messengers. The christian churches across all spectrums for the most part hold to this as a fact, as do I. Though some have wandered into Satanic salvation as well. A position I can't and don't have to accept.

So with regards to 'universalism' I feel confident to say that universally, every devil and Satan will find their place and permanent eternal lot in the LoF. Beyond that, I have to leave the subject alone as we really don't have hard scriptural evidence that any named person will also be there to use for examples. So in this I think the majority of christians have erred greatly on a side that should never be stepped upon. We are commanded beyond any doubt to love our neighbors as ourselves. That much is certain.

 

[Jesse]

literally the Name. sometime when I post things about Jews I use their term. We know the Heshem as the YHWH. rather then say that name or spell the consonants they say Heshem, G-D, or L-RD and such like

Cool, thanks.

All I can find is that Jesus said those overcoming will partake of the Tree of Life, nothing about a Garden. Is there something in the OT about gen-eden?

 

[jasonc]

Cool, thanks.

All I can find is that Jesus said those overcoming will partake of the Tree of Life, nothing about a Garden. Is there something in the OT about gen-eden?

no, but where would the garden be? its not on the earth until its the new city which comes from heaven to the earth.

ok this doesn't seem to fit?

ylt.
revelation 1:7

He who is having an ear -- let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: To him who is overcoming -- I will give to him to eat of the tree of life that is in the midst of the paradise of God.

that is too close to ignore. by oral tradition from the Talmud,likely the Mishnah that was taught. interesting that jesus says that.

 

[Jesse]

Anyone can read their views by Googling them. Hit Jews beliefs on hell and you'll find hundreds of reference sites. I've known their positions vaguely for a couple decades.

I DON'T think that is what the N.T. teaches. Neither do I think we discuss the topic very well. For example, where you may see eternal separation, I see there is no place apart from God.

We can read in Revelation 14: 9-12, that said torture transpires in the Presence of the Lamb, and is eternal in nature.

That also being said, I will remain hard pressed to see these matters past the known miscreants, the evil/wicked spirits we KNOW for a fact that will be thusly tortured, that being the devil and his messengers. The christian churches across all spectrums for the most part hold to this as a fact, as do I. Though some have wandered into Satanic salvation as well. A position I can't and don't have to accept.

So with regards to 'universalism' I feel confident to say that universally, every devil and Satan will find their place and permanent eternal lot in the LoF. Beyond that, I have to leave the subject alone as we really don't have hard scriptural evidence that any named person will also be there to use for examples. So in this I think the majority of christians have erred greatly on a side that should never be stepped upon. We are commanded beyond any doubt to love our neighbors as ourselves. That much is certain.

Is there a problem with asking jason and stove their views on it instead of googling it and getting 1,000's of opinions?

 

[Jesse]

no, but where would the garden be? its not on the earth until its the new city which comes from heaven to the earth.

ok this doesn't seem to fit?

ylt.
revelation 1:7

that is too close to ignore. by oral tradition from the Talmud,likely the Mishnah that was taught. interesting that jesus says that.

Is paradise heaven? Or is paradise a holding place?