Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[smaller]

"Christiandom" does not determine truth, God's word does.

Yes, we all believe we have the whole enchilada on that don't we? That must be why no two believers see alike as well.

Where then is the fault? Obviously in the readers.

There is a plethora of bible verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

Only if one is inclinded to see only that. Personally I can't discount the point of Gods active involvement and can not see a point in putting His involvement in second place when He was/is and will be here long before any of us showed up or are gone.

Who's on first? No brainer.

Again, "Christiandom" does not determine truth. There is a lot of doctrinal error that gets put under the label "Christiandom".

I came to the conclusion decades ago that none of us see perfectly. Therefore all sights contain partiality because none are perfect.

What most of us factually have then are in fact very limited points of view regardless of how right and correct we think they might be because exactly zero of same are perfect views.

I admit this fact for myself. Do you?

Which one of us then would have a truthful foundation if we saw differently on this single count?

I would only say one would be measurably truthful.

Christ established just one church yet many religious organizations exist. There are many CONTRADICTIONS among these organizations. Jesus said God word is truth and truth does not contradict itself as these organizations do, so that is proof enough for me to see that all these organizations do not possess the truth that is God's word. So as I said this "Christiandom" is full of errors, untruths.

And to that I would agree and also simultaneously place both our our views and the views of any others in the same partial basket.

Choice by man has everything to do with it.

So, if a believer sees that they do not have perfect views i.e. that no choice of view can possibly be perfect, what is the value of thinking one can choose their way into the door of Perfection? That to some might seem rather stupid to begin with.

If man has no choice in his own eternal destiny then God is the culprit behind those that are lost, God has fault and blame upon Him for the lost.

That is not the only conclusion available. You simply take an imperfect set of logic applications.

I would say that if God Is Perfect, and I believe He Is, then A Perfect outcome is inevitable by His Own determinations and what He Is and Is Able alone to do and to perform.

There is no logical way for me to come to the conclusion that any given set of imperfect choosers are going to derive a perfect outcome. Doesn't fit for me.

The man with one talent called God a "hard man", he tried to blame God for his action of burying his talent when he of his own choice buried that talent. And what happened to this one talent man who tried to put blame upon God?

Said before and will say again. If The Creator constructed anything then His Involvement with that matter can not be factually eliminated.

If for example some believers say God gave them 'freewill' I can only say why did The Creator not give everyone a Perfect Will? Is there some point in creating a 'less than perfect' will and expecting a perfect outcome?

If you say God couldn't have given a perfect will to all, then He remains unable to do so.

Most freewill equations will invariably come back to an unable and ineffective God.

And a reverse equation resides on the determinist side. God is able, yet chooses not to be able. That spin is almost equally flawed as well.

Who is really to able to say that God is neither totally able or totally Perfect in the final outcome? I can't really say that will be the case.

The difficulty for me then turned to a description of Perfection. And I found that in Perfection there is no boundry or description available for any of us because we are neither able nor Perfect in order to come to such conclusions.

God quickly moved to the top of the list for me at that point and seems quite secure via my own imperfections inabilities to corral that matter.

s

 

[smaller]

The bible says to judge righteous judgment.

Righteous judgment to some will truthfully come to the conclusion that we all have at a minimum, unrighteousness. This is a truthful conclusion.

It is ripe hypocrisy to ascribe to ourselves only righteousness by any measure when that openly is not a truthful fact.

When the measure on everyone then is 'some' unrighteousness, that judge is partially right only by the virtue of being truthful. And that truth carries unrighteousness as part of the factual package. So how right is such judgment?

Righteously unrighteous.

By no means can that be called righteous. But at least it's truthful.

There was no consequence to Peter for judging Simon's salvation for Simon had no unconditional guarantee that he would remain saved and Peter rightly points out Simon's sin and shows Simon he had fallen from a saved position.

I don't have any doubt that any believer can fall in this present life.

The fact remains though that there is not one instance in the entire New Testament where a believer is shown to have eternally lost their salvation.

yet many think they see that when as a fact it is not there to be seen.

funny then how some think they derive that apart from a single named example. to me such methods remain entirely their own subjective speculation.

Obedience leads to salvation and continued obedience maintains salvation. Obedience does not earn salvation but a condition God put upon His free gift.

No one operates alone.

There remains the operations of both God in Christ and the adversary(s) within the will.

Any of us can claim to be obedient but I could just as easily say exactly zero of us are perfectly obedient.

The later statement is much more truthful than a mere claim of imperfect 'obedience.' To me that only serves to false self justifications and is far far far from simple truthfulness.

s

 

[FirefighterForHim316]

You can't earn salvation, it is given as a gift from God.

 

[Danus]

Heb 5:9 does not say one is first saved while in a state of disobedience, then they obey. Obedience is a conditon to being saved, one first obeys then can be saved.

Well if that's your logic then you have a logical problem that needs to be solved to have a full understanding, because it does not say that anyone is saved by obeying Him either. It just says "For those that Obey." It does not give the how, when, or why does it. So in your thinking, you read it as "I must obey to be saved"; where as it can logically be read that ones salvation leads to obedience. Anyone assured of their salvation would agree to that.

In the end, one either obeys or they don't. Obedience to Christ is either a desire one has or it's not. However, one thing is clear of man and his fallen state. In his sinfulness he does not have the power to obey. He must be given that first, then he can do what he otherwise can not by his very nature.

The bible is replete about this over and over and over again; so your notion that a man simply obeys and then he is saved....if seriously flawed to scripture. However, if you want to understand it that way, then go ahead.

 

[rrowell]

Nah, I just get a kick out of 'freewillers' who sincerely try to convince me that they might not be saved because that is what their position is.

It's entertainment value for me.

Funny thing is most "freewillers" got it right... He gave you a choice to love Him or not.

 

[smaller]

Funny thing is most "freewillers" got it right... He gave you a choice to love Him or not.

Were the persons wills the sole operators I could accept that premise. That is not however a factual case.

One can certainly choose partial truth. Doesn't mean it's factual or encompassing.

s

 

[savedbygrace57]

Men reject the Truth that it was Christ's Obedeince that earned Eternal salvation for as many as He died for . Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

[rrowell]

Were the persons wills the sole operators I could accept that premise. That is not however a factual case.

One can certainly choose partial truth. Doesn't mean it's factual or encompassing.

s

We (man) have a choice to serve or not:

1 Kings 18:21 (KJV)
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

God gave people a choice to follow him or not, to follow him is to be obedient, Elijah didn't say "well there's nothing you can do about it"

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, we all believe we have the whole enchilada on that don't we? That must be why no two believers see alike as well.

Where then is the fault? Obviously in the readers.

"Christiandom" is full of contradictions...no truth in contradictions.

Only if one is inclinded to see only that. Personally I can't discount the point of Gods active involvement and can not see a point in putting His involvement in second place when He was/is and will be here long before any of us showed up or are gone.


Who's on first? No brainer.

It does not matter how one is inclined, what matters is one going to be honest in dealing with the what the bible says or try and pervert the bible to fit one's own inclinations.

I came to the conclusion decades ago that none of us see perfectly. Therefore all sights contain partiality because none are perfect.

What most of us factually have then are in fact very limited points of view regardless of how right and correct we think they might be because exactly zero of same are perfect views.

I admit this fact for myself. Do you?

Which one of us then would have a truthful foundation if we saw differently on this single count?

I would only say one would be measurably truthful.

As you said, this is you own conclusion and does not represent everyone's views

And to that I would agree and also simultaneously place both our our views and the views of any others in the same partial basket.

No one can be saved with part truth part falsehoods.

So, if a believer sees that they do not have perfect views i.e. that no choice of view can possibly be perfect, what is the value of thinking one can choose their way into the door of Perfection? That to some might seem rather stupid to begin with.



That is not the only conclusion available. You simply take an imperfect set of logic applications.

I would say that if God Is Perfect, and I believe He Is, then A Perfect outcome is inevitable by His Own determinations and what He Is and Is Able alone to do and to perform.

There is no logical way for me to come to the conclusion that any given set of imperfect choosers are going to derive a perfect outcome. Doesn't fit for me.



Said before and will say again. If The Creator constructed anything then His Involvement with that matter can not be factually eliminated.

If for example some believers say God gave them 'freewill' I can only say why did The Creator not give everyone a Perfect Will? Is there some point in creating a 'less than perfect' will and expecting a perfect outcome?

If you say God couldn't have given a perfect will to all, then He remains unable to do so.

Most freewill equations will invariably come back to an unable and ineffective God.

And a reverse equation resides on the determinist side. God is able, yet chooses not to be able. That spin is almost equally flawed as well.

Who is really to able to say that God is neither totally able or totally Perfect in the final outcome? I can't really say that will be the case.

The difficulty for me then turned to a description of Perfection. And I found that in Perfection there is no boundry or description available for any of us because we are neither able nor Perfect in order to come to such conclusions.

God quickly moved to the top of the list for me at that point and seems quite secure via my own imperfections inabilities to corral that matter.

s

Thank you for your opinions.

 

[Eventide]

No one can be saved with part truth part falsehoods.

I know that I'm picky.. although this can't be correct..

The Lord Jesus Christ is the TRUTH, and there's not a single one of us that has measured up to the fulness of the stature of CHRIST..

Any person can be saved by calling on the name of the LORD... infinitely short of the fulness of that truth concerning Christ dying for our sins..

Unless of course you are led to believe that you already measure up to Christ Jesus our Lord...?

 

[heymikey80]

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved Ep 2:1-5

Well, I see disobedience as a predecessor to God's making us alive in Christ.

Where's obedience prior to God making us alive?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

To the contrary, you continue to make the mistake assuming that I'm making the mistake.

And you're making the mistake that Paul is allowing you to smuggle back in "obedient works" as a prerequisite for salvation. But once again, Paul is saying not even those works are a prerequisite for salvation.

Pointedly, Paul is excluding works as a prerequisite for salvation. Paul is not excluding works completely, but Paul is excluding works as prerequisite.

Their role can only come from elsewhere.

As I've pointed out a number of times, in Greek obedience in this sense is not works. So obedient faith is not works. Paul has excluded works as gaining any wage for salvation. And Paul states it flatly: the righteous one is he who "does not work but believes". Paul also states flatly, any work returns a wage.

Paul's conclusion can only be singular: the wages for any work are not for salvation.

As Paul elsewhere states that works are the end purpose of salvation (Ep 2:10), it's pretty clear what Paul means: works follow salvation, not vice versa.

I do not think those words mean what you think they do.

But Jesus' response was, "The work of God is to believe in who He sent" As belief is not good works to Jesus' audience, it's embarrassingly clear that Jesus thinks they're asking the wrong question.

Obviously if the only work of God is believing Jesus, then we're back to asking why you're adding obedience! Because, paraphrasing you, Jesus NEVER responded to this question with "OBEDIENT faith".

So -- your method of argument makes your own assertion fall.

But Jesus DIDN'T tell them to WORK FOR EVERLASTING LIFE!! Reread what Jesus said!

"Work for the meat that endures to everlasting life."

Jesus didn't say to work for everlasting life! Jesus said to work for something or someone that lasts to everlasting life. That is, you can't be benefitted by perishable works.

But ... Paul said that too.

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1 Cor 3:12-14

All Jesus is saying is to work for something that lasts everlastingly.

And that's all Paul is saying.

And what issue would I have with that? None, unless it's misinterpreted to mean we're working for everlasting life.

You are assuming "worketh not" excludes all works, you have yet to prove otherwise.

The context does not agree with you.

AGAIN, Rom 4:4 the worker is one who tries to make his reward of debt and not of grace. The only this could be accomplished is if one keeps God's law perfectly then he would not need grace, his reward would be owed him. So the work the worker does are works done to earn salvation.

In verse 5 Abraham was not one who worked to earn his salvation but he had an obedient belief.

"Worketh not" here then just excludes works to earn salvation and does not exclude an obedient belief. By you trying to exclude all works then you are denying, ignoring the works Abraham's belief contained, Heb 11:8. So your argument fails here. Furthermore by trying to get "worketh not" to exclude all works you create more contradictions you have yet to explain away, such as what paul said in Rom 6:16-18 and Rom 10:9,10 where he put obedient works BEFORE salvation.

You only attempt to explain away these problems you have is by trying to re-define the words "obedience" and "works" with YOUR own definitions. Then you ASSUME that YOUR definition is the only correct one and everyone else is suppose to go by your made up definitions and not by how those words are really defined and used in the contexts of Rom 6 and Rom 10.

 

[Eventide]

Where's obedience prior to God making us alive?

IMO it's simple and the summary of Paul's (the Apostle to the Gentiles), ministry..

Repentance toward God and Faith toward the Lord Jesus Christ.

IMO that's exactly what OBEDIENCE to the FAITH actually is..

It's certainly not doing nothing.. that would be remaining in the disobedience which resulted in death upon ALL in the first Adam.. in the beginning..

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I know that I'm picky.. although this can't be correct..

The Lord Jesus Christ is the TRUTH, and there's not a single one of us that has measured up to the fulness of the stature of CHRIST..

Any person can be saved by calling on the name of the LORD... infinitely short of the fulness of that truth concerning Christ dying for our sins..

Unless of course you are led to believe that you already measure up to Christ Jesus our Lord...?

The truth is the word of God..."Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free"

So contrary to poster smaller's opinions, the truth is something that can be known and knowing this truth is the only way to be set free. Some truth mixed with some falsehoods is the same as not knowing the truth and will not set one free.

 

[greatisthelight]

Romans 3:10-12
- 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
- 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
- 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

I think this answers the notion of earning one's way to Heaven, more and more I think faith alone saves.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well if that's your logic then you have a logical problem that needs to be solved to have a full understanding, because it does not say that anyone is saved by obeying Him either. It just says "For those that Obey." It does not give the how, when, or why does it. So in your thinking, you read it as "I must obey to be saved"; where as it can logically be read that ones salvation leads to obedience. Anyone assured of their salvation would agree to that.

In the end, one either obeys or they don't. Obedience to Christ is either a desire one has or it's not. However, one thing is clear of man and his fallen state. In his sinfulness he does not have the power to obey. He must be given that first, then he can do what he otherwise can not by his very nature.

The bible is replete about this over and over and over again; so your notion that a man simply obeys and then he is saved....if seriously flawed to scripture. However, if you want to understand it that way, then go ahead.

It's not my logic it is simply what Heb 5:9 says. Too many want Heb 5:9 to read that Christ is the author of salvation to all them that disobey Him. They wistfully think that Christ will save them in their disobience and then they will obey. Yet 2 Thess 1:8 and Rom 2:8.9 says God will have vengeance, wrath, indignation upon those that obey not. Again too many erroneously think God will save them while in a state of disobedience which is completley opposite of what the bible says.


Rom 6:16 Paul says on serves either one of two masters. You either serve:

1) sin unto death

or

2) obedience unto rigtheousness

I serve 2. In you post here you clearly ruled out 2 for yourself not leaving you a very bad option.

[Note Paul said obedience UNTO righteousness and NOT obedience because of righteousness. Just as in Rom 10:9,10 Paul put obedient works of belief and confessing with the mouth UNTO salvation not because of salvation]

 

[Eventide]

The truth is the word of God..."Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free"

So contrary to poster smaller's opinions, the truth is something that can be known and knowing this truth is the only way to be set free. Some truth mixed with some falsehoods is the same as not knowing the truth and will not set one free.

Perhaps you're missing my point.. it is a small one

Did you have fulness of the truth when you were saved ?

How about any falsehoods.. none of those when you were saved ?

How about now.. are you immune to deception and falsehood..?

Sometimes it's easier to try to make a point with direct questions to ourself.. it helps me anyway

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved Ep 2:1-5

Well, I see disobedience as a predecessor to God's making us alive in Christ.

Where's obedience prior to God making us alive?

Christ died for everyone yet everyone will not be saved. His death provided opportunity for man to be saved, yet only those who obey Christ take advantage of his dying on the cross. Those that do not obey lose out on what Christ did for them.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) "

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: "

These verse do not exclude obedience but speak of the Ephesians obedience in submitting to water baptism. One is made alive with Christ when one has "been raised up together" which is a reference to baptism in Col 2:12 and Rom 6:4. These verses speak of being water baptized where one is buried and raised up together with Christ.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Perhaps you're missing my point.. it is a small one

Did you have fulness of the truth when you were saved ?

How about any falsehoods.. none of those when you were saved ?

How about now.. are you immune to deception and falsehood..?

Sometimes it's easier to try to make a point with direct questions to ourself.. it helps me anyway

I did not know as much about the bible as a whole back when I first obeyed the gospel as I do now, but I did have to known the full truth pertaining to how to become a Christian. One cannot initially become a Christian based on falsehoods about what it takes to become a Christian.

 

[Eventide]

I did not know as much about the bible as a whole back when I first obeyed the gospel as I do now, but I did have to known the full truth pertaining to how to become a Christian. One cannot initially become a Christian based on falsehoods about what it takes to become a Christian.

IMO this is silly E..

I didn't have a clue about any of these things when I was saved.. a brother that brought me to meetings and gave me a bible certainly demanded that I be baptized in water.. and I did it out of sheer joy to be obedient to Christ Jesus my Saviour. This all happened far away from home for me while in the service in West Germany.

Then, a few years later I came home and was involved with another assembly of believers that told me that my water baptism didn't count because it didn't happen in their assembly.. I was ignorant enough to believe them and also willing to obey God no matter what it took..

Now many years later I look back on those things and completely disagree with many things that men have taught me.. it still doesn't mean that I'm correct in all things.. although it certainly reflects the idea that a person doesn't need to know ANY OF THIS STUFF in order to get saved..

The ONE THING I knew is that the Lord Jesus Christ died for my sin on that forsaken cross and when I called upon His name in complete despair and godly sorrow.. He saved me.