Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[heymikey80]

Again, God is the genesis of the work that He gives to man.

Your employer makes widgets. So the work of your employer is for you to make widgets. If your employer makes the widgets himself then he does not need you. Yet the employer himself does not make the widgets, he is the genesis, souce, provider of the work he has hired you to do.

How poignant that your example is exactly the example that Paul rejects:

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness Rom 4:4-5

Let's just state the obvious conclusion: your opinion of what Jesus is saying is rejected by Jesus' own Apostles, and in fact opposed as anti-Christian.

In verse 27 Jesus said to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. THis settles the issue that one must work for everlasting life. After Jesus told them to work for everlasting life the people asked "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?"

The people at the time were looking for something they could do to indebt God to them, yes. And you think Jesus agreed?

Take a hard look at what Jesus is saying: you have to work to gain what will give you everlasting life. This has not a silent syllable to do with working to gain a wage of eternal life. This has everything to do with making an effort to receive the food that your Father gives to you, not pays to you. As the exposition goes on, Jesus says what this food is. The food is Himself.

It's not work for wages, and it's not "good works", and it's not "works as belief" (note Paul's rejection of that in 4:4-5), and it amazes me that this continues on. Paul said it, pointblank: "to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" Rom 4:5

Now this understanding is wholly consistent with:

1. being consistent with the exact statements of Jesus
2. what Jesus teaches elsewhere (e.g., "no one is good but God alone"; "two men went to temple to pray")
3. the historical context that Jesus has to reach out to as well as subvert as being wrong: work for salvation
4. the teachings of the Apostles, an extension of what Jesus taught while spending direct personal time with them

But your understanding, it has the disadvantages of:

1. inferring about Jesus' own statements in the context which aren't born out, 25 verses later
2. inconsistent with what Jesus teaches elsewhere (e.g., "no one is good but God alone"; "two men went to temple to pray")
3. inconsistent with the historical context of work for salvation: resulting in quintessential Christian Pharisaism
4. contradicting the teachings of the Apostles, whom Jesus taught while spending direct personal time with them

 

[dadof10]

So you are assured. Great. In other. On conversations you expressed doubts, indicated you can be saved or loose your salvation. I'm glade to see you see that being saved does not mean might be or could be.

: How in the world did you draw this conclusion from what I wrote? Are you just being contentious?

 

[Danus]

: How in the world did you draw this conclusion from what I wrote? Are you just being contentious?

You are fixed on the idea that salvation does not happen, but happens over time. You've stated this. You describe it as a process. So it begins.....and then what? You have yet to describe being saved. the condition of saved. It's like it starts for you and then .......does something else.

The bible describes salvation as an event, then growth in salvation. yet you have expressed problems with that. So I have to assume you don't feel saved, or you feel your just hanging by a thread or something.

I started a thread that asked "do you know you are saved?" you never answered the question, but you did here. why?

 

[rrowell]

No, I see myself as saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13). This is the Biblical view which takes into consideration ALL Scripture teaches on the subject instead of ignoring two-thirds of Scriptural references because they don't fit an a'priori assumption.

You are fixed on the idea that salvation does not happen, but happens over time. You've stated this. You describe it as a process. So it begins.....and then what? You have yet to describe being saved. the condition of saved. It's like it starts for you and then .......does something else.

The bible describes salvation as an event, then growth in salvation. yet you have expressed problems with that. So I have to assume you don't feel saved, or you feel your just hanging by a thread or something.

I started a thread that asked "do you know you are saved?" you never answered the question, but you did here. why?

I believe what he is saying Danus is like the bible says we must continue to walk in newness of life:

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

He's doing the best he can to walk in the light:

John 8:12 (KJV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
1 John 1:7 (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Not to wander into darkness so as to fall:

John 11:10 (KJV)
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

The Bible does not teach once saved always saved Danus.

 

[heymikey80]

You are fixed on the idea that salvation does not happen, but happens over time. You've stated this. You describe it as a process. So it begins.....and then what? You have yet to describe being saved. the condition of saved. It's like it starts for you and then .......does something else.

The bible describes salvation as an event, then growth in salvation. yet you have expressed problems with that. So I have to assume you don't feel saved, or you feel your just hanging by a thread or something.

I started a thread that asked "do you know you are saved?" you never answered the question, but you did here. why?

Just from what I've run into, the issue seems to be whether that event (which we'd call justification) is one of the following:

• a process, during which ultimate salvation is not assured.
• an event or declaration, after which salvation is a process of change (iow, we aren't perfected yet, but we're headed there under God's power, not our own)
• an event after which our actions don't matter to God (an option I think is unlikely, but it exists in Christian thought)
• results from works, not some particular event (an option excluded in Christianity)

 

[dadof10]

You are fixed on the idea that salvation does not happen, but happens over time. You've stated this. You describe it as a process. So it begins.....and then what? You have yet to describe being saved. the condition of saved. It's like it starts for you and then .......does something else.

The bible describes salvation as an event, then growth in salvation. yet you have expressed problems with that. So I have to assume you don't feel saved, or you feel your just hanging by a thread or something.

I started a thread that asked "do you know you are saved?" you never answered the question, but you did here. why?

Are you serious? I can't decide whether you suffer from selective memory disorder (i.e. totally forgetting everything on that thread EXCEPT the verses I posted), or whether you are just distracting and being contentious. In case it's the former here are my responses to your question "Do you know for sure you are saved?", which was the title of the thread:

Post #14:

No, because salvation is a process, not a one time event and we have free will.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor. 1:18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." (2Cor. 2:15-16)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13)

"Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom. 5:9-10)

From post 38 to WestTexas:

Westtexas,

I can give you the Cliff's Notes version.

Salvation is not always lost, but it can be because we have free will and salvation is not a one time event, but a lifelong process. God is constantly calling us to repentance. We respond to His Grace and we move closer to salvation, when we refuse, we move further away. What it takes to be saved is obedience to God's will through Grace, how we lose initial justification (usually by baptism) is by our disobedience. I don't know whether you have read much CS Lewis, but he makes the case that with every decision we make we are either allowing God to turn us into a Saint or a Demon. There are a few verses that back up the contention that salvation is a process:

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor. 1:18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." (2Cor. 2:15-16)

"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." (Phil. 2:12-13)

"Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life." (Rom. 5:9-10)

Anyway, that's it in a nutshell...Gotta get to work.

I assume you read it, because you replied in post #39:

How does having free will allow one to loose or even gain salvation? What is the nature of our free will?

My response, #42:

I don't understand the question. Are you asking for the Catholic definition of "Free Will"? If so, this one is adequate:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

I really don't know how anyone can look at the verses I posted and deny that salvation is a process and that implicit in this doctrine is free will. How can Paul say we must "work out" our salvation without implying free will?

Yours, #43:

I'd rather hear what you think. It's kind of a two part question, but pick either one, or both.

1. How does having free will allow one to loose or even gain salvation?
2. What is the nature of our free will?

Me:

God gives us free will, which allows us to make choices that effect our salvation. If we ALLOW GOD to change us into Saints, we are ultimately saved. If we DENY GOD'S Grace, we are damned. It is part of our human nature.

God is constantly trying to draw us closer to Him and the nature of our free will is essentially to push God away, this is what we are allowed to do. Of course, our conscience comes into play as this is how God "speaks" to us.

I'd like to hear how you interpret the verses I posted as well. If salvation is once for all, in what context are we "being saved" or working out our salvation?

You posted a long response, to which I responded:

"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,"

What Paul wants his readers to "continue" in is obedience. He is drawing a direct link between obeying and salvation. That has always been my contention, that if we don't CONTINUE to obey, we will lose our salvation. AGAIN, I have never said, nor believed, we are WORKING to be saved.

I don't see how, "are being saved" can only be interpreted as something ONGOING, a process. Those verses don't make any reference to obedience or faith, only that salvation is a process and it is NORMATIVE (Paul even includes himself within the group that "are being saved"). These verses are said in passing, without any doctrinal backing or argumentation. That really speaks volumes about how doctrinally common ongoing salvation, or salvation as a process, was.

You responded, then me again:

Obeying salvation already obtained? The only thing Paul is talking about here is obedience:

12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed,,,, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without grumbling or questioning, 15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain. 17 Even if I am to be poured as a libation upon the sacrificial offering of your faith, I am glad and rejoice with you all. 18 Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me."

If salvation is "already obtained" and can never be lost, how in the world can Paul say he is in the process of "being saved"? Your contention is that salvation has already happened for Paul and can never be lost. He begs to differ. There is no possible way to force sense into this notion.

Again, this is said simply in passing. No great theological treatises, no argumentation. Just "are being saved", a process.

"For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." (1Cor. 1:18)

"For we are the aroma of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing, 16 to one a fragrance from death to death, to the other a fragrance from life to life." (2Cor. 2:15-16)

After this response, you posted:

So do you know you for sure you are saved?

Me:

Didn't I already answer this and get lumped in with non-believers? Are we done discussing Scripture now?

You:

Not really. You never actually answered. Let me ask this question, are you satisfied with your answer to the question do you know you are saved? What's your answer and are you OK with it?

Me:

Yes I did. Post 14: [above]

The question was "Do you know for sure you are saved". Yes, I am satisfied with my answer. The only way my answer would be changed is if I misinterpreted your meaning of the word "saved". I assumed you meant "from this moment forward, no matter what, I will be spending eternity in Heaven". The answer to that is a resounding "No, I don't know for sure", and to answer any other way is presumptuous at best.

Are you satisfied with your interpretation of the verses I posted? Are you satisfied that "are being saved" is interpreted as growth "in what has been given" (e.g. Faith)?

I answered the question, gave you verses that explain my answer, explained it in more detail to Westtexas (which you saw and replied to), discussed it with you, was asked again, answered again, then was asked if I was satisfied with my answer. How could you possibly accuse me of evading the question after at least two weeks of back and forth? Are you just trying to distract because you realize your explanation of the verses I posted is inadequate?

You may not agree with my theology, but you can't say I didn't answer.

 

[dadof10]

I believe what he is saying Danus is like the bible says we must continue to walk in newness of life:

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

He's doing the best he can to walk in the light:

John 8:12 (KJV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
1 John 1:7 (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Not to wander into darkness so as to fall:

John 11:10 (KJV)
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

The Bible does not teach once saved always saved Danus.

Exactly! And if we don't continue to "walk in newness of life" (or stop obeying God), we will lose our initial justification.

 

[dadof10]

Just from what I've run into, the issue seems to be whether that event (which we'd call justification) is one of the following:

• a process, during which ultimate salvation is not assured.
• an event or declaration, after which salvation is a process of change (iow, we aren't perfected yet, but we're headed there under God's power, not our own)
• an event after which our actions don't matter to God (an option I think is unlikely, but it exists in Christian thought)
• results from works, not some particular event (an option excluded in Christianity)

Well put.

 

[Danus]

Are you serious? I can't decide whether you suffer from selective memory disorder (i.e. totally forgetting everything on that thread EXCEPT the verses I posted), or whether you are just distracting and being contentious. In case it's the former here are my responses to your question "Do you know for sure you are saved?", which was the title of the thread:

Post #14:
From post 38 to WestTexas:

I assume you read it, because you replied in post #39:

My response, #42:

Yours, #43:

Me:

You posted a long response, to which I responded:

You responded, then me again:

After this response, you posted:

Me:

You:

Me:

I answered the question, gave you verses that explain my answer, explained it in more detail to Westtexas (which you saw and replied to), discussed it with you, was asked again, answered again, then was asked if I was satisfied with my answer. How could you possibly accuse me of evading the question after at least two weeks of back and forth? Are you just trying to distract because you realize your explanation of the verses I posted is inadequate?

You may not agree with my theology, but you can't say I didn't answer.

Now we are back to you being assured of your salvation. I think that's great. It's not been clear from you. On the one hand you seem to want to argue the assurance of salvation, but on the other hand....and you take a long road, but that's fine, you seem assured of your salvation, as those with faith should be.

At this point I'm not even sure what you are discussing. You have described that you are saved, you are assured and that your faith is in Jesus Christ, not in your self. I have no argument with that theology.

 

[Danus]

I believe what he is saying Danus is like the bible says we must continue to walk in newness of life:

Romans 6:4 (KJV)
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

He's doing the best he can to walk in the light:

John 8:12 (KJV)
12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
1 John 1:7 (KJV)
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Not to wander into darkness so as to fall:

John 11:10 (KJV)
10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

The Bible does not teach once saved always saved Danus.

Those who are saved do continue to walk in that salvation, that new nature given them by God. It's not an effort as much as who they are. It's a conversion from one nature to another, and a growth from there.

Those who are saved, or will be saved, will have struggles at times. They will suffer and be tested, but they are never in a state of "NON SALVATION" that's clear they are saved. They are saved (period).

What you, and others seem to suggest is that these saved people just do what they want. I don't know if you understand that they are not their former selves. They are new people, changed.

Salvation is a CONVERSION. I don't think this is something that can be explained to anyone who has not experienced it. Maybe you have, maybe you have not. I don't know, but I do know that others who have, get this. They know what it means, and for those who have not it's like trying to describe the flavor of ice cream to someone who has never tried it, or the color blue to a blind man.

If you are working hard to be a Christian, then I can't help you. I don't know what that's like, and I can not impart to you what my experience of being converted from no faith to faith is like if you have not experienced that.

It's a rebirth, and only God can do that for the individual.

The bible does teach that not everyone will be saved. It also says that some will claim God but not be saved. I think that when those people hear someone like me suggest that God chooses who he will, they get offended because they think we are saying that they are not saved, can't be saved, or whatever, but that's not what we are saying. That's just what they are thinking and that says a lot about them.

God says anyone can be saved and that he does the saving not them. I fully understand this for two reasons. 1 that's what the bible says and 2 I have experienced that very thing.

I'm I special? .....yes I am. and many others are, and anyone can be. I am "working out" my salvation by allowing it to shine. I want others to see it. I want to tell others about it. It's good news. But I can't help those who are "working for" their salvation, and think that means they are working out their salvation.....still trying to figure it out.

All I can do is express what God has done for me. If you want to be a strong man on your own go ahead. That may be true for you, I don't know.

I have no problems with people who don't believe, or don't have a religion, or practice some other religion, or claim to practice Christianity in their own effort. That does not bother me one bit. Maybe they will be saved like me some day, or maybe they won't. I can't argue them into grace. I can't lead anyone into Christ who does not have a desire for Christ. No one can.

But, I can tell them where to find Him. those who will be saved will be saved. I'm not leading an effort to save people. That's God, not me. My salvation is not to save others, it's to glorify Him.

So, if you want to believe that you can loose your salvation, or that you have to "DO" something special to gain salvation then go ahead. Just don't lump me in that, or mind rape me on your view. You can tell about it if you want. I'll listen. I just want to make it clear that that's not the case for me. My post are not to convince anyone. They are designed to only connect with others who are, or will be saved, and defend my position in terms of making it clear to anyone needing or wanting clarification.

Someone may want to know more about that. There could be someone out there who will be saved, or is saved, has been born again, converted to a new nature, or understands what that means but might want or need to share that walk or some help along the path. I'm only interested in them. The cool part is, I don't have to convince them, or sell them on an idea, they already know enough to get it. For others there are time when I will kick the dust off my feet and walk away. Not going to spend time trying to convince anyone who is not convinced or will be about the grace of God.

That's why I created that thread "Do you know for sure you are saved" I wanted to see who was who on here. That's why I like answering those who say they are atheist or agnostics. I like the honesty they bring to this forum and I can relate to them far better than I can relate to some who seem to be working hard to follow Christ and want others to work at it like them.

I've done nothing for my salvation. All I ever did was ask God to reveal himself to me because I did not believe in Him. And He did. I know the hour it happened, I know where I was, what the weather outside was like. I know that day like others know the day Kennedy was shot or the plans flew into the towers. That's how much of an EVENT it was for me. Changed my life. I don't need validation from others about what God has done, but I want to tell about it.

 

[BornAgain]

Two versions of salvation

Everybody seeks "salvation" in some form or another. Salvation could be considered personal triumph over those things that curse us: obstacles, weaknesses, challenges, threats. To be "saved" is to be rescued from those For many people, this means "rescuing themselves" by their own wits.

To Christians salvation means something unattainable by human effort. 2 Pet. 1:4: Through the atonement and grace of Jesus, and not through "self-improvement" or self-reliant "works." It means surrendering our will to God, and receiving through Him a renewed heart and mind and the hope of eternal life. Being rescued from our fallen condition and becoming "reconciled" to God, capable of doing those things that truly please God.

The biblical definition of conversion

Jesus told Peter, "When thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren" Luke 22:32. He also taught his disciples, "Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven" Matt. 18:3.

In the Bible, the idea of conversion is best described by the term "born again." We read the following discussion of this doctrine in John, chapter 3: 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The point is here not to ignore the need for water baptism, a doctrine emphasized throughout the New Testament as essential to salvation.

Indeed, in His words to Nicodemus, Jesus declares, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (John 3:5) — a passage generally understood to require water baptism, as well as spiritual rebirth.

Our dilemma

To understand why we need such "salvation," we need to accept the fact that we are "fallen," through sin and in need of "reconciliation with God" Rom. 5:8-12, 2 Cor. 5:17-21. The need for a Savior through whose sacrifice we might overcome our fallen condition and become a new creature. A person whose heart and mind are changed. .

[FONT=arial,helvetica]Attaining conversion

As Paul wrote in Romans 6, be "free from sin, and become servants to God," "walking in a newness of life," imperfect but acceptable to God because our hearts have been changed — the question arises: how can we attain such abundance of life, for real, not in a way that is pretended, imagined, or temporary, and thus be a light and strength to others? Matt. 5:13-16, Luke 22:32.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus cautioned all of us with these words:Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it" Matt. 7:13-14.

Jesus is not saying that He is withholding any person His invitation to come to Him and be saved — but He is emphasizing that true conversion does not come lightly. As the scriptures clearly teach, the price of salvation is whole-hearted submission to God, nothing held back, as James taught.

Romans 10:3, we read, "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Matt. 22 :37
The commandment to love God with all our heart, mind, and soul requires not only putting Him first in our lives, but yielding our entire will to Him.

And as Jesus taught in Matt. 18:3, the measure of such yielding is the degree to which we "become as little children" in our faith and our submissiveness to God.

[/FONT]

 

[dadof10]

Now we are back to you being assured of your salvation. I think that's great. It's not been clear from you. On the one hand you seem to want to argue the assurance of salvation, but on the other hand....and you take a long road, but that's fine, you seem assured of your salvation, as those with faith should be.

At this point I'm not even sure what you are discussing. You have described that you are saved, you are assured and that your faith is in Jesus Christ, not in your self. I have no argument with that theology.

How is it that RRowell can understand what I mean only reading one of my posts above, but you can't? How is it that HeyMikey can understand that one of the doctrines being discussed here is "a process, during which ultimate salvation is not assured", but you can't see that I hold this view, even after being told point blank that I do? Why are you having such a hard time grasping my view when to the question "do you know for sure you are saved?" my answer was "no"?

Look Danus, I realize your answers to the verses I posted were lame, and obviously you see that too, so you are trying obfuscation and distraction instead of discussion. Usually when people use this tactic, and are called on it, they stop because it calls into question their credibility. You, however are still going (which, BTW, is why I quit posting on your other thread), so I can't help but think your credibility means little to you.

It is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS from the verses Paul doesn't believe there is an "assurance of salvation", either for him or anyone else. To make the claim that when Paul says we "are being saved" he "describes growth from salvation" instead of a process, is ridiculous, and to simply state it without comment, like you did in the previous thread (then distract), is truly frustrating. I hope you will, from this point on, attempt to engage more and distract less.

BTW, if you want a more detailed view of my take on assurance of salvation, simply look in any Catechism or on the Catholic Answers website. You know I'm Catholic, I don't see why this should be so hard.

 

[Danus]

How is it that RRowell can understand what I mean only reading one of my posts above, but you can't? How is it that HeyMikey can understand that one of the doctrines being discussed here is "a process, during which ultimate salvation is not assured", but you can't see that I hold this view, even after being told point blank that I do? Why are you having such a hard time grasping my view when to the question "do you know for sure you are saved?" my answer was "no"?

Look Danus, I realize your answers to the verses I posted were lame, and obviously you see that too, so you are trying obfuscation and distraction instead of discussion. Usually when people use this tactic, and are called on it, they stop because it calls into question their credibility. You, however are still going (which, BTW, is why I quit posting on your other thread), so I can't help but think your credibility means little to you.

It is BLATANTLY OBVIOUS from the verses Paul doesn't believe there is an "assurance of salvation", either for him or anyone else. To make the claim that when Paul says we "are being saved" he "describes growth from salvation" instead of a process, is ridiculous, and to simply state it without comment, like you did in the previous thread (then distract), is truly frustrating. I hope you will, from this point on, attempt to engage more and distract less.

BTW, if you want a more detailed view of my take on assurance of salvation, simply look in any Catechism or on the Catholic Answers website. You know I'm Catholic, I don't see why this should be so hard.

You beat around the bush to say your are saved, but then say your not. So, no I don't get it. Don't want to get it. There is nothing I need to get.

So let me state what your saying about your salvation as I do get it. You may or may not be saved, you don't know and you wont know until some time in the future. If you want to hammer salvation into that go ahead.

So that we are clear abut what I am saying. I am saved, and always will be from the moment I was saved. I am aware of my own salvation. OK?

The only thing I am gaining in my salvation is more growth in my faith. That's it. If there is something more I can add for clarification let me know.I understand what you think the gospel says for you as you have described it. I can't speak for why the others seem to understand your view better. I don't know that they do or not.

However, you don't need me to understand your view. My understanding or not of your view should not hinder your view.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

bass



Yes, but I am highlighting what the second part says, which is this Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Their personal obedience had nothing to do with being made Righteous before God ! Ane their being made Righteous is their Salvation !

But you cannot ignore the first part. The "many" that were made sinners are the same "many" that are made righteous.

If many were made sinners unconditionally then that same many will be made righteous unconditionally and you have Universalism. And from your posts, you seem to think many were made sinners and made righteous unconditonally even though Paul never said that.

Verse 19 does not say "Their personal obedience had nothing to do with being made Righteous before God", that is your theology. You are preaching Universalism with Rom 5:19.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nope. The lost are the lost before they are saved. It gives credit to God for those who are saved and places the blame for the lost with the lost where it always way to begin with.

If the only way I could be saved is if God 'chose' me before the world began, then it is certainly not my fault God failed to choose me...that is 100% God's fault I am not of the chosen. In Rom 1:20ff Paul said men are without excuse and the ideas of Calvinisitic election gives men excuse.

 

[Danus]

If the only way I could be saved is if God 'chose' me before the world began, then it is certainly not my fault God failed to choose me...that is 100% God's fault I am not of the chosen. In Rom 1:20ff Paul said men are without excuse and the ideas of Calvinisitic election gives men excuse.

You want an excuse for being a sinner and to blame God? : I don't understand.

How do you know you are not chosen by God? Your a Christian right? You have faith right? You place your faith in Christ right? then you are chosen. That was determined before you did it. it's a matter of time and space that you exist in.

There are plenty of people who don't love God. Who will not love God. They where born in that state and will die in that state. The fault of it is the fall of man. That they are not chosen is indicative of the time and space in which they exist. God knows who they are, just as he knows you or me.

This is not about you or me, it's about God. There is no "blame" here and all are without excuse, meaning there is none. No one can say that God is to blame because that is an excuse.

 

[Eventide]

How do you know you are not chosen by God?

Because we know that if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it and that if we shall lose it for Christ and the gospel we shall save it..

AND... By your own admission, you don't know WHY God chose you..

And yet that too is told to us and it's as plain as day.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

How poignant that your example is exactly the example that Paul rejects:

Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness Rom 4:4-5



Let's just state the obvious conclusion: your opinion of what Jesus is saying is rejected by Jesus' own Apostles, and in fact opposed as anti-Christian.

You continue to make the mistake that when Paul said "worketh not" he was including all works when he was not. In the context Paul is contrasting the "worker" who does works of merit trying to earn salvation tothe one who "worketh not". So the one who "worketh not, but believeth" is the one who does not do works of merit trying to earn salvation but has an obedient belief as Abraham. If Paul were excluding all works then he would be excluding belief for belief is a work, as Abraham's belief was an obedient one, Heb 11:8. In Rom 6, Rom 10 Paul puts obedience BEFORE salvation not after.


Jesus said iin Jn 6:27 to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. I accept those words, others reject them.

The people at the time were looking for something they could do to indebt God to them, yes. And you think Jesus agreed?

The people asked Jesus " What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "

Jesus NEVER responded by telling them NOT to do any works. The fact is Jesus just told them to WORK FOR EVERLASTING life which is what prompted them to ask what shall WE DO.

Jesus: work for evelasting life.
Heymickey80: do not work for evelasting life.

It is very obvious to me your theology does not line up with what Jesus said, it is competely the opposite.

Take a hard look at what Jesus is saying: you have to work to gain what will give you everlasting life. This has not a silent syllable to do with working to gain a wage of eternal life. This has everything to do with making an effort to receive the food that your Father gives to you, not pays to you. As the exposition goes on, Jesus says what this food is. The food is Himself.

Jesus did NOT say "you have to work to gain what will give you everlasting life"

A "what" does not give everlasting life. Jesus said He gives it, so it is free yet He put the condition of working (belief) upon receiving this free gift. Again, Jesus told them to WORK FOR EVERLASTING LIFE. Issued settled that works are necessary to gain the free gift of everlasting life.


---In Jn 6:27-29 where did Jesus tell them not to do any works at all?----

It's not work for wages, and it's not "good works", and it's not "works as belief" (note Paul's rejection of that in 4:4-5), and it amazes me that this continues on. Paul said it, pointblank: "to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" Rom 4:5

You have not proven that when Paul said in Rom 4:5 "worketh not' that that includes all types of works. The context says it includes works of merit and not obedience. Your idea contradicts Paul in Rom 6:16-18 and Rom 10:9,10 and else where when he puts obedience BEFORE salvation.

You do not seem to understand that free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting those conditions do not earn the free gift.

Now this understanding is wholly consistent with:

1. being consistent with the exact statements of Jesus
2. what Jesus teaches elsewhere (e.g., "no one is good but God alone"; "two men went to temple to pray")
3. the historical context that Jesus has to reach out to as well as subvert as being wrong: work for salvation
4. the teachings of the Apostles, an extension of what Jesus taught while spending direct personal time with them

Jesus said work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life.

I do not think you realize you're arguing with Jesus on this and not Ernest T.

But your understanding, it has the disadvantages of:

1. inferring about Jesus' own statements in the context which aren't born out, 25 verses later
2. inconsistent with what Jesus teaches elsewhere (e.g., "no one is good but God alone"; "two men went to temple to pray")
3. inconsistent with the historical context of work for salvation: resulting in quintessential Christian Pharisaism
4. contradicting the teachings of the Apostles, whom Jesus taught while spending direct personal time with them

Jesus said in verse 27 to work for everlasting life and did not 25 verses later contradict Himself by saying not to work for everlasting life.

 

[Danus]

Because we know that if we shall seek to save our life we shall lose it and that if we shall lose it for Christ and the gospel we shall save it..

AND... By your own admission, you don't know WHY God chose you..

And yet that too is told to us and it's as plain as day.

Let me clarify; I don't know why God would have chosen me, meaning I can't think of a reason he would have picked. If it was up to me, I'd not choose me as being worthy of God choosing me.

However, I accept that he chooses anyone for his own good pleasure to do so as he sees fit.

There are three verses I can think of that you are referencing. All say the same thing pretty much. I think there are even more.

Matthew 16:25
Luke 17:33
Mathew 10:39

This in and of itself doe not bolster an argument against being chosen by God. So I'm not sure why your referencing it. My theology supports these verses.

Let's look at Luke 17:33 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

this is to say that those who are living in their own will, will ultimately loose their life. Those who loose their own will for their life, will ultimately preserve their life, as in life ever lasting.

This does not confirm the idea that loosing ones life for God is a choice they make by their own volition, nor does it confirm the understanding that God chooses. It simply describes the difference between the saved and the unsaved.

 

[Eventide]

Let me clarify; I don't know why God would have chosen me, meaning I can't think of a reason he would have picked. If it was up to me, I'd not choose me as being worthy of God choosing me.

You're asking someone if they know that they're chosen by God and yet you don't know why yourself ?

However, I accept that he chooses anyone for his own good pleasure to do so as he sees fit.

He tells us why we were chosen from the beginning.. through sanctification of the SPIRIT and BELIEVING the truth.

There are three verses I can think of that you are referencing. All say the same thing pretty much. I think there are even more.

Matthew 16:25
Luke 17:33
Mathew 10:39

This in and of itself doe not bolster an argument against being chosen by God. So I'm not sure why your referencing it. My theology supports these verses.

Let's look at Luke 17:33 33 Whoever tries to keep their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life will preserve it.

this is to say that those who are living in their own will, will ultimately loose their life. Those who loose their own will for their life, will ultimately preserve their life, as in life ever lasting.

This does not confirm the idea that loosing ones life for God is a choice they make by their own volition, nor does it confirm the understanding that God chooses. It simply describes the difference between the saved and the unsaved.

Do you know and understand that all in the first Adam are under the same condemnation, or do you believe that you're exempt from that ?