Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think this answers the notion of earning one's way to Heaven, more and more I think faith alone saves.

From Rom 4:4 the only way salvation can be earned would be if one were able to keep God's law perfectly. Then his reward would be of debt and not of grace.

Therefore imperfect obedience does not, cannot earn salvation. Abraham sinned for he did not keep God's law perfectly so his sin would keep him from ever earning salvation. But Abraham was one who obeyed God even though he occasionally sinned. His obedient faith was reckoned righteous and did not earn him his salvation so any argument that a faithful obedience earns salvation is a bad, false argument. Did Abraham''s obedience in offering Isaac earn his salvation? No, so any claim obedience earns salvation is false.

Those verse from Rom 3 you posted do not prove obedience earns salvation.

 

[savedbygrace57]

bass

Christ died for everyone yet everyone will not be saved

Then you are acknowledging that Christ's Death in and of itself does not save anyone ! Which is a Lie, because Peter writes by His Stripes, which means His death, ye were healed, which means saved. 1 Pet 2:24

24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

The word healed means this:

to cure, heal
2) to make whole

a) to free from errors and sins, to bring about (one's) salvation

 

[heymikey80]

You are assuming "worketh not" excludes all works, you have yet to prove otherwise.

Once more, it does not exclude:

1. Works that result from gratitude for grace.
2. Works that don't bring about salvation.

The passage does exclude working for salvation. Even authorities pay for work done for them. Respect for authority does not exclude the work-for-wages system.

The context does not agree with you.

The context flatly agrees with me. In fact Paul's awareness of obedience doesn't lead him to mention it here.

AGAIN, Rom 4:4 the worker is one who tries to make his reward of debt and not of grace.

No. Paul states it: "When a man works" -- not "when a man wants wages".

The only this could be accomplished is if one keeps God's law perfectly then he would not need grace, his reward would be owed him. So the work the worker does are works done to earn salvation.

There we agree. So no works may be harnessed to pull us into God's salvation. Because once one work intrudes, all work must be perfect to meet God's standard.

But reliance on God -- reliance has never had to be perfect. You can rely imperfectly and frightfully on a helicopter, and it'll still hold you aloft. It's because it's the nature of the helicopter that holds you, not your faith in it. So too with God: you can rely imperfectly and frightfully on God, and He will still sustain you.

In verse 5 Abraham was not one who worked to earn his salvation but he had an obedient belief.

His obedience resulted from his faith, not vice versa. Faith in God matters. Works don't.

"Worketh not" here then just excludes works to earn salvation and does not exclude an obedient belief.

Amazingly, I'd even agree with you there. But it's not obedient works that are required. It's relying on God: quintessentially, "faith" or "pistis" (Gk).

By you trying to exclude all works then you are denying, ignoring the works Abraham's belief contained, Heb 11:8.

No. I'm saying they are not contained by faith: Paul says works aren't faith. Works result from faith.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; the gift of God, not a result of works Ep 2:8-9

So your argument fails here. Furthermore by trying to get "worketh not" to exclude all works you create more contradictions you have yet to explain away, such as what paul said in Rom 6:16-18 and Rom 10:9,10 where he put obedient works BEFORE salvation.

No, they're not problems. Both show heart changes. Now how pray, tell, can the heart within you do an external work?

Quite clearly, external work is not in view in the Greek word, "obey" used here. What's in view is the attitude of submission that comes from seeing an authoritative command delivered to you. That's "obey" in the Greek sense. Not your works: your heart attitude. As for Rom 10:9-10, of course God saves mute people who can't cry out to Him. Why? Once again, the mouth is not essential: the heart change is.

You only attempt to explain away these problems you have is by trying to re-define the words "obedience" and "works" with YOUR own definitions. Then you ASSUME that YOUR definition is the only correct one and everyone else is suppose to go by your made up definitions and not by how those words are really defined and used in the contexts of Rom 6 and Rom 10.

I don't have a problem, I know Greek. Maybe it'd be a good idea to learn the language this is translated from, before you allege that I'm redefining what the Apostles said.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

IMO this is silly E..

I didn't have a clue about any of these things when I was saved.. a brother that brought me to meetings and gave me a bible certainly demanded that I be baptized in water.. and I did it out of sheer joy to be obedient to Christ Jesus my Saviour. This all happened far away from home for me while in the service in West Germany.

Then, a few years later I came home and was involved with another assembly of believers that told me that my water baptism didn't count because it didn't happen in their assembly.. I was ignorant enough to believe them and also willing to obey God no matter what it took..

Now many years later I look back on those things and completely disagree with many things that men have taught me.. it still doesn't mean that I'm correct in all things.. although it certainly reflects the idea that a person doesn't need to know ANY OF THIS STUFF in order to get saved..

The ONE THING I knew is that the Lord Jesus Christ died for my sin on that forsaken cross and when I called upon His name in complete despair and godly sorrow.. He saved me.

In order for one to become a Christian he must believe, Jn 3:16.. Can one become a Christian and not know what to believe or believe things that are false? No. So one must accurately know what to believe in and what it means to believe to become a Christian. One must know he has to repent of his sins before he can become a Christian, Lk 13:3,5. He must know he has to confess to become a Christian, Mt 10:32,33; Rom 10:9,10 and he must know he must be water baptized for remission of sins, Acts 2:38. Therefore one must know the truth, know God's word as to how to become a Christian and any falsehoods as faith only will prevent one from becoming a Christian. No one can believe just whatever they want to to become a Christian, by only a knowledge of the truth can they attain being a Christian. Christianity is not a free-for-all where anyone can become a Christian by thinking whatever they want to.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Once more, it does not exclude:

1. Works that result from gratitude for grace.
2. Works that don't bring about salvation.

The passage does exclude working for salvation. Even authorities pay for work done for them. Respect for authority does not exclude the work-for-wages system.

The context flatly agrees with me. In fact Paul's awareness of obedience doesn't lead him to mention it here.

No. Paul states it: "When a man works" -- not "when a man wants wages".

There we agree. So no works may be harnessed to pull us into God's salvation. Because once one work intrudes, all work must be perfect to meet God's standard.

But reliance on God -- reliance has never had to be perfect. You can rely imperfectly and frightfully on a helicopter, and it'll still hold you aloft. It's because it's the nature of the helicopter that holds you, not your faith in it. So too with God: you can rely imperfectly and frightfully on God, and He will still sustain you.

His obedience resulted from his faith, not vice versa. Faith in God matters. Works don't.

Amazingly, I'd even agree with you there. But it's not obedient works that are required. It's relying on God: quintessentially, "faith" or "pistis" (Gk).

No. I'm saying they are not contained by faith: Paul says works aren't faith. Works result from faith.

And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:5

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; the gift of God, not a result of works Ep 2:8-9


No, they're not problems. Both show heart changes. Now how pray, tell, can the heart within you do an external work?

Quite clearly, external work is not in view in the Greek word, "obey" used here. What's in view is the attitude of submission that comes from seeing an authoritative command delivered to you. That's "obey" in the Greek sense. Not your works: your heart attitude. As for Rom 10:9-10, of course God saves mute people who can't cry out to Him. Why? Once again, the mouth is not essential: the heart change is.

I don't have a problem, I know Greek. Maybe it'd be a good idea to learn the language this is translated from, before you allege that I'm redefining what the Apostles said.

From verse 5 Abraham was one "who worketh not but believeth".

Did Abraham's belief include works, Heb 11:8,17; James 2:21-24?


If your knowledge of the Greek tells you that works really means not doing works, then you do not know Greek as well as you think.

 

[heymikey80]

Christ died for everyone yet everyone will not be saved. His death provided opportunity for man to be saved

Cite where Scripture says Christ died in order to actually save everyone.

I'd agree Christ died for everyone -- but that's for His Kingship, His reign over everyone as His subjects.

I'd agree Christ died to save people -- but that's to actually save people, not to hold out a hat-in-hand in case someone noticed.

, yet only those who obey Christ take advantage of his dying on the cross. Those that do not obey lose out on what Christ did for them.

Those who rely on Christ heed His words as their Savior and Lord.

But those who "walk the walk" aren't saved, not without relying on Him. And those who through the corruptions of their wills, minds, or bodies are unable to do what His words request, they are inevitably saved as well.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) "

Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus: "

These verse do not exclude obedience

They only mention disobedience. The only place where anything like obedient works is mentioned is the purpose of re-creation in Christ (not its cause): good works.

but speak of the Ephesians obedience in submitting to water baptism. One is made alive with Christ when one has "been raised up together" which is a reference to baptism in Col 2:12 and Rom 6:4. These verses speak of being water baptized where one is buried and raised up together with Christ.

There's no indication Paul is talking about baptism. He didn't have an aversion to the word. Paul is talking about real resurrection before the God of the Universe, the place Christ now occupies as King (Ep 1:19-2:7).

 

[heymikey80]

From verse 5 Abraham was one "who worketh not but believeth".

Did Abraham's belief include works, Heb 11:8,17; James 2:21-24?


If your knowledge of the Greek tells you that works really means not doing works, then you do not know Greek as well as you think.

If your knowledge of English didn't catch I'd already answered with the first sentence I wrote, then I doubt you know English as well as you think.

Once more, it does not exclude:

1. Works that result from gratitude for grace.
2. Works that don't bring about salvation.

Abraham's belief includes works -- as a result of faith. Both Heb 11 and James 2 actually say this, so I'll leave it to you to sort out the disarray of your argument.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.

By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was in the act of offering up his only son Heb 11:8-9,17

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.†Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. James 2:18

 

[farouk]

Paul to the Philippians in chapter 2 says that 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'. When by grace the Christian believes and obeys the Scriptures, it's all to God's glory and not of human merit.

 

[Eventide]

In order for one to become a Christian he must believe, Jn 3:16.. Can one become a Christian and not know what to believe or believe things that are false? No. So one must accurately know what to believe in and what it means to believe to become a Christian. One must know he has to repent of his sins before he can become a Christian, Lk 13:3,5. He must know he has to confess to become a Christian, Mt 10:32,33; Rom 10:9,10 and he must know he must be water baptized for remission of sins, Acts 2:38. Therefore one must know the truth, know God's word as to how to become a Christian and any falsehoods as faith only will prevent one from becoming a Christian. No one can believe just whatever they want to to become a Christian, by only a knowledge of the truth can they attain being a Christian. Christianity is not a free-for-all where anyone can become a Christian by thinking whatever they want to.

Well, thanks for your opinion on that E..

 

[Eventide]

And I'd be willing to bet that you're led to believe that only those who follow your assembly's beliefs.. are actually saved..

Is that right ?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Cite where Scripture says Christ died in order to actually save everyone.

I'd agree Christ died for everyone -- but that's for His Kingship, His reign over everyone as His subjects.

I'd agree Christ died to save people -- but that's to actually save people, not to hold out a hat-in-hand in case someone noticed.

His death gives everyone today the opportunity to be saved, His death saves no one unconditionally. When Christ died and shed His blood it "flowed backwards" and remitted the sins of those who lived under the OT laws but only those who were obedient God as John's parents, Lk 1:6, Abraham, David, etc. Again, His death saved no one unconditionally but only those that were/are obedient to God's will.

Those who rely on Christ heed His words as their Savior and Lord.

But those who "walk the walk" aren't saved, not without relying on Him. And those who through the corruptions of their wills, minds, or bodies are unable to do what His words request, they are inevitably saved as well.

Rely = obey. The disobedient cannot rely on the Lord to save them but they can rely on God having vengeance upon them for their disobedience, 2 Thess 1:8; Rom 2:8,9.

They only mention disobedience. The only place where anything like obedient works is mentioned is the purpose of re-creation in Christ (not its cause): good works.


There's no indication Paul is talking about baptism. He didn't have an aversion to the word. Paul is talking about real resurrection before the God of the Universe, the place Christ now occupies as King (Ep 1:19-2:7).

The context mentions the disobedience they once walked in. But the context does not say they never obeyed, it mentions thier obedience in having been raised up. The only way out of disobeience is obedience and Christ does not raise up together with Him the disobedient for again God has vengeance upon those who obey not the gospel. That means the Ephesian must have obeyed the gospel and being baptized is the same as obeying the gospel.

From Eph 1:1-9 we are told a few times here the Ephesians were "in Him", "in Christ" Baptism is the only way to be in Christ.

Eph 2:8 the Ephesians were saved by faith:

Eph 2:8------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1pet 3:21---------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

Only one way to be saved so there faith must have included obedience.

Col 2:12 and Rom 6:4 both speak of bieng raised up with Christ and are referring to water baptism as EPh 2:6. No verse says faith only raises one up with Christ.

 

[smaller]

We (man) have a choice to serve or not:

1 Kings 18:21 (KJV)
21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the LORD be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

God gave people a choice to follow him or not, to follow him is to be obedient, Elijah didn't say "well there's nothing you can do about it"

As stated prior and multiple times. The blazing flaw in choice advocacy is that there is only one operating will in people.

This is not the case whatsoever.

Gods Will is Above All Things
The will of the adversary operates in people and always moves to resist Gods Will, Work and Word
and the will of the person

The above is an accurate mix of this dynamic.

Yet choice advocates only see their own will, alone, making choices. And perpetually imperfect choices at that.

There is a vastly more interesting 'choice' available to those who want to observe matters of choice.

How about a choice to be truthful about the mix of wills?

You see freewillers can not even muster the sight to see the fact of the other wills in play within their own will, and can generally not be truthful to that fact. Their choice then is cloaked within an internal lie.

Freewill advocacy is nothing more than a blinded choice to ignore the other operating wills that are not their own and that operate within them.

Is such a choice free? Uh, no. Nothing more than a blind move against the obvious. Nothing free about that whatsoever.

All the while that Paul sought to do good, he openly admitted in Romans 7:21 that evil was in fact present with him at the same time.

At least the man was honest.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul to the Philippians in chapter 2 says that 'it is God that worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure'. When by grace the Christian believes and obeys the Scriptures, it's all to God's glory and not of human merit.

God works in those who obey Him, God has vengeance upon those who do not obey, 2 Thess 1:8.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Well, thanks for your opinion on that E..

You're welcome, but Jn 3:16; Lk 13;3,5; Mt 10:32,33 amd Acts 2;38 are not part of my opinion. Please don't confuse me with poster 'smaller' who came here presenting his opinion as fact and never gave a book, chapter, verse to back up any thing he posted.

 

[smaller]

No one can be saved with part truth part falsehoods.

Thank you for your opinions.

That's part of the problem of partial sight isn't it?

Contrary statements can be put up to counter false views such as the above and the person holding that partiality still can't see it.

This is how Paul factually saw:

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul not saved seeing in part?

Fat chance.

Blind advocacy to faulted views are almost entirely worthless and not true.

Such views are purposefully blinded by God's interaction with the workings of the adversary in the heart of the person.

They can't see the facts of their own condition even when it's set before their eyes, black on white.

And all the while they think they are totally right and seeing in full and have nothing but a full deck and a full enchilada on everything there is.

This is an accurate picture of a believer in Truth:

Revelation 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

And I'd be willing to bet that you're led to believe that only those who follow your assembly's beliefs.. are actually saved..

Is that right ?

Yes, I believe the church I attend is that one church Christ established. Obviously I would not attend there if I thought it was not. I encourage people to follow the bible and not any assembly....the bible determines what is the truth, not the assembly.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

That's part of the problem of partial sight isn't it.

Contrary statements can be put up to counter false views such as the above and the person holding that partiality still can't see it.

This is how Paul factually saw:

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Paul not saved seeing in part?

Fat chance.

Blind advocacy to faulted views are almost entirely worthless and not true.

Such views are purposefully blinded by God's interaction with the workings of the adversary in the heart of the person.

They can't see the facts of their own condition even when it's set before their eyes, black on white.

And all the while they think they are totally right and seeing in full.

This is an accurate picture of a believer in Truth:

Revelation 3:17
Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:

s

Paul wrote 1 Cor 13 when the bible at that time had not been fully revealed by God to men of inspiration as Paul. Paul says "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

The word perfect as used in the KJV means whole or complete, so when all of God's word would be revealed which occured by the end of the first ccentury with the book of Revelation then the in part, piece by piece revelation done by miraculous signs ceased.


Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free.


According to you no one can know the truth, no one can ever be free.

Eph 3:4 "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) "

God's word can be understood and God's word is not full of contradictions of man but truth, truth that can be understood and known.

 

[heymikey80]

His death gives everyone today the opportunity to be saved, His death saves no one unconditionally. When Christ died and shed His blood it "flowed backwards" and remitted the sins of those who lived under the OT laws but only those who were obedient God as John's parents, Lk 1:6, Abraham, David, etc. Again, His death saved no one unconditionally but only those that were/are obedient to God's will.

So: Jesus saves ... no one, actually?

Rely = obey.

That's a mistake. They're two different words, and they mean different things both in English and in Greek.

Oh, and just so you know: "rely" in greek is "pisteuo" -- "believe" / "have faith".

You're saying "belief" and "obedience" are the same thing. Why talk about "obedient faith" when faith is obedience to you?

When a theology starts talking about two different things as the same thing, and then in another breath as different -- I have to start wondering if the theology is consistent. I'd encourage anyone to wonder the same.

The disobedient cannot rely on the Lord to save them but they can rely on God having vengeance upon them for their disobedience, 2 Thess 1:8; Rom 2:8,9.

So ... those who were formerly disobedient are fuel for Hell?

The context mentions the disobedience they once walked in. But the context does not say they never obeyed, it mentions thier obedience in having been raised up. The only way out of disobeience is obedience and Christ does not raise up together with Him the disobedient for again God has vengeance upon those who obey not the gospel.

Your view holds no place for forgiveness. There is no salvation in a gospel of works.

That means the Ephesian must have obeyed the gospel and being baptized is the same as obeying the gospel.

The lack of recognition here in Ep 2 that baptism isn't in view, that obedience isn't in view, that works aren't in view for bringing about salvation leads me to conclude that your position is emptied of its standing.

From Eph 1:1-9 we are told a few times here the Ephesians were "in Him", "in Christ" Baptism is the only way to be in Christ.

Eph 2:8 the Ephesians were saved by faith:

Eph 2:8------------------faith>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
1pet 3:21---------------baptism>>>>>>>>>>saves

There Peter himself said it wasn't washing with water, but the response of a good conscience before God.

This obsession with washing the flesh even beyond its absence in Apostolic mention leads me to conclude another aspect of this theology is wrong: preoccupation with baptism beyond what the Apostles expressed.

Here's what Paul the Evangelist thought of baptism:
"I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name." 1 Cor 1:14-15

Baptism just isn't that essential to evangelism.

Only one way to be saved so there faith must have included obedience.

No, your entire thread is now inconsistent because you've asserted faith is obedience.

Col 2:12 and Rom 6:4 both speak of bieng raised up with Christ and are referring to water baptism as EPh 2:6. No verse says faith only raises one up with Christ.

Actually I just cited the verse which says GOD ONLY raises one up with Christ!!

I didn't toss faith into the mix. But now I will. It's the response of a new born child of God, as Ep 2 says.

 

[smaller]

Paul wrote 1 Cor 13 when the bible at that time had not been fully revealed by God to men of inspiration as Paul. Paul says "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

Oh, you don't like that part sight of Paul? You would propose to do what then? Discount Paul's statements of fact because it doesn't suit your obvious gaffe in understandings? Eliminate 1 Cor. 13 on that contrived basis?

Let's just face the truth that Paul saw in part and was saved anyway.

Hey, you know what I really love about Paul? He was honest and truthful about the facts of his own condition. A very rare quality today. Very hard to find such believers.

Here is again what Paul had to say about the conditions of our planting:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body

Do the Words of Jesus regarding being poor, wretched, pitiful, blind and naked connect to the above? Uh, yeah. These conditions remain a fact for every believer in a natural flesh body, soon to turn to dust.

According to you no one can know the truth, no one can ever be free.

And one might see that being truthful is freedom even if it is partially sighted.

There is no cause to lie past the obvious.

God's word can be understood and God's word is not full of contradictions of man but truth, truth that can be understood and known.

A believer who says they see everything perfectly is a marked fibber who is being gamed by the adversary and are a warning to others to stay away from such.

There is an immense working of spiritual forms of megalomania that comes upon many who pick up Gods Words and think they know it all and have it all yet can't even see where they are.

If you don't know you don't know, you don't know.

s

 

[Eventide]

Yes, I believe the church I attend is that one church Christ established. Obviously I would not attend there if I thought it was not. I encourage people to follow the bible and not any assembly....the bible determines what is the truth, not the assembly.

Then IMO E, you do not understand what the church of God actually is.

Because it's certainly not exclusive to your assembly of believers..

This is religious fanaticism at it best.