Can Obedience To God Earn Salvation?

[Ernest T. Bass]

You want an excuse for being a sinner and to blame God? : I don't understand.

I never said I wanted an excuse. I did say from Rom 1:20ff man will be without excuse yet Calvinistic predestination gives man an excuse so Calvinistic predestination must be wrong. Calvinistic predestination puts blame and fault on God and by erroneously doing so it gives man excuse where man is not lost due to his own shortcomings but man is lost due to God failing to choose him and man would be right and justified in blaming God.

How do you know you are not chosen by God? Your a Christian right? You have faith right? You place your faith in Christ right? then you are chosen. That was determined before you did it. it's a matter of time and space that you exist in.

One is not a Christian because of some arbitrary, unconditional choice God made before the world began against the will of man. Again that puts blame and fault on God. A person is a Christian and can know he is a Christian when he ofhis own will choses to obey the gospel in believing, Jn 3:16; repenting, Lk 13:3,5; confessing, Mt 10:32,33 and being baptized, Mk 16;16.

Thjerefore if I do not obey the gospel then that is my fault, my culpability and not God's.

There are plenty of people who don't love God. Who will not love God. They where born in that state and will die in that state. The fault of it is the fall of man. That they are not chosen is indicative of the time and space in which they exist. God knows who they are, just as he knows you or me.

People choose not to love God, they were not born predetermined not to love God. The scenario you create is that God created me not to love Him then God will eernally punish me for not loving him. Do you have children? Have you ever made them disobey you agaisn thier will just so you can have the joy of punishing them?

Eze 33:11 "Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? "

This means that God never before the world began predetermined some to be lost agaisnt their will.

This is not about you or me, it's about God. There is no "blame" here and all are without excuse, meaning there is none. No one can say that God is to blame because that is an excuse.

God made it about you and me for God never made arbitrary choices agaisnt man's will as to where each man will be in eternity.

Rom 2:6-11

Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

For there is no respect of persons with God.

Man's eternal destiny is determined by whether he obeyed God or not and is NOT detemined by some capricious, unconditional or unknown reasons for it is plainly spelled out here. Paul said God "Who will render to every man according to his deeds" and not render according to some arbitrary, unconditional choice God made against the will of man. God renders according to if one obeys the truth or obeys unrighteousness.

 

[watchman333]

It is ridiculous to try to hand cuff Christ in His salvation for us. He will save whomsoever He will and whomsoever our Father gives Him. It is unwise for us to speculate on why He does what He does on earth. After nearly 40 years of Judaism, none of which were kind to Christ, our Beloved Lord Jesus saved me, in one night! Now, should we follow the Scriptures, and obey Christ? Of course!

 

[Danus]

It is ridiculous to try to hand cuff Christ in His salvation for us. He will save whomsoever He will and whomsoever our Father gives Him. It is unwise for us to speculate on why He does what He does on earth. After nearly 40 years of Judaism, none of which were kind to Christ, our Beloved Lord Jesus saved me, in one night! Now, should we follow the Scriptures, and obey Christ? Of course!

I don't normally do this, but a hardy Aman! How can we not?

 

[heymikey80]

You continue to make the mistake that when Paul said "worketh not" he was including all works when he was not.

To the contrary, you continue to make the mistake assuming that I'm making the mistake.

In the context Paul is contrasting the "worker" who does works of merit trying to earn salvation tothe one who "worketh not". So the one who "worketh not, but believeth" is the one who does not do works of merit trying to earn salvation but has an obedient belief as Abraham.

And you're making the mistake that Paul is allowing you to smuggle back in "obedient works" as a prerequisite for salvation. But once again, Paul is saying not even those works are a prerequisite for salvation.

Pointedly, Paul is excluding works as a prerequisite for salvation. Paul is not excluding works completely, but Paul is excluding works as prerequisite.

Their role can only come from elsewhere.

If Paul were excluding all works then he would be excluding belief for belief is a work, as Abraham's belief was an obedient one, Heb 11:8. In Rom 6, Rom 10 Paul puts obedience BEFORE salvation not after.

As I've pointed out a number of times, in Greek obedience in this sense is not works. So obedient faith is not works. Paul has excluded works as gaining any wage for salvation. And Paul states it flatly: the righteous one is he who "does not work but believes". Paul also states flatly, any work returns a wage.

Paul's conclusion can only be singular: the wages for any work are not for salvation.

As Paul elsewhere states that works are the end purpose of salvation (Ep 2:10), it's pretty clear what Paul means: works follow salvation, not vice versa.

Jesus said iin Jn 6:27 to work for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. I accept those words, others reject them.

I do not think those words mean what you think they do.

The people asked Jesus " What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? "

Jesus NEVER responded by telling them NOT to do any works.

But Jesus' response was, "The work of God is to believe in who He sent" As belief is not good works to Jesus' audience, it's embarrassingly clear that Jesus thinks they're asking the wrong question.

Obviously if the only work of God is believing Jesus, then we're back to asking why you're adding obedience! Because, paraphrasing you, Jesus NEVER responded to this question with "OBEDIENT faith".

So -- your method of argument makes your own assertion fall.

The fact is Jesus just told them to WORK FOR EVERLASTING life which is what prompted them to ask what shall WE DO.

But Jesus DIDN'T tell them to WORK FOR EVERLASTING LIFE!! Reread what Jesus said!

"Work for the meat that endures to everlasting life."

Jesus didn't say to work for everlasting life! Jesus said to work for something or someone that lasts to everlasting life. That is, you can't be benefitted by perishable works.

But ... Paul said that too.

Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— 13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. 14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. 1 Cor 3:12-14

All Jesus is saying is to work for something that lasts everlastingly.

And that's all Paul is saying.

And what issue would I have with that? None, unless it's misinterpreted to mean we're working for everlasting life.

 

[savedbygrace57]

The Obedience of Jesus Christ, even His Obedience unto death Phil 2:8
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Now, His ObeObediencerned Salvation for everyone He died in the stead of Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Being made Righteous is Salvation ! Look what it says about the Righteous here Matt 13:43

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Christ earned them that by His Obedience !

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

It is ridiculous to try to hand cuff Christ in His salvation for us. He will save whomsoever He will and whomsoever our Father gives Him. It is unwise for us to speculate on why He does what He does on earth. After nearly 40 years of Judaism, none of which were kind to Christ, our Beloved Lord Jesus saved me, in one night! Now, should we follow the Scriptures, and obey Christ? Of course!

Christ does not save anyone randomly, unconditionally or for some unknown reason.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Christ has made obedience to Him a prerequisite...no one can be saved without first obeying Christ.

Jn 6:45 God drawn by His word when men taught, hear and learn God's word men then come to Christ. Men of their own will must chose to obey in coming to Christ.

 

[Danus]

Christ does not save anyone randomly, unconditionally or for some unknown reason.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Christ has made obedience to Him a prerequisite...no one can be saved without first obeying Christ.

Jn 6:45 God drawn by His word when men taught, hear and learn God's word men then come to Christ. Men of their own will must chose to obey in coming to Christ.

Yes, the saved obey Christ. The unsaved do not. That's the point. Those who will obey are the saved.

This is kind of a "which comes first" argument at this point.

 

[smaller]

Christ does not save anyone randomly, unconditionally or for some unknown reason.

Determinist positions say yes. Perhaps not 'random' though in God's Eye. Those who do believe do so from His Direct Involvement and drawing, enabling them to see.

And even 'after sight' there are varying degrees of light that are distributed by God in Christ as well. This is clearly evidenced in the plethora of degrees of understandings that is prevalent within Christiandom in general.

Heb 5:9 Christ is the author of salvation unto all them that obey Him.

Christ has made obedience to Him a prerequisite...no one can be saved without first obeying Christ.

The text is interesting in it's construct, because, believers all tend to see what they themselves want or are led to see.

This does not eliminate a superabundance of matters available to be seen. Again as evidenced in the plethora of 'different sights' that are rife within Christiandom in general. And this again will point directly back to various degrees of light distributed by God in Christ within the text itself.

Many matters are factually there to see. Whether they are seen or not is really the only question. And if there and not seen, what is there to look at but the limits of the reader themselves?

And even this will logically point back to the Creator Himself. Were we all designed and granted and made to see identically, then that is how we would all see, but that is obviously not the case.

Jn 6:45 God drawn by His word when men taught, hear and learn God's word men then come to Christ. Men of their own will must chose to obey in coming to Christ.

Choice really has little to do with it as it pertains to the individual.

Freewill advocates just can not seem to come to the reality that scripturally speaking there are at least 3 different wills that operate within the person.

The Will of God
The will of the adversary
The will of the person

Those who see those facts that are readily available to see if one is allowed to see them in the scriptures should logically and reasonably see that the role of the individual is blurred and obscured by the facts of the other operational wills.

The will that thinks itself alone as the free chooser is actually quite blinded.

But this is not to say they don't have 'some' Divine light and that light is sufficient unto their salvation as well.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[AwakenedOne]

100 lifetimes of 100 years each of perfect obedience cannot earn salvation. Salvation is the (NOT) free gift of God.

Why do I say it is not free? It cost Jesus Christ His life to make it available to us. While it is given to us free, it has the ultimate price tag attached. The price was paid by Someone else.

True. Salvation is a free gift and just like any gift it has to be received. Since this is a free gift that Christ paid for with His life through the BRUTAL, BARBARIC death that He suffered for, than how much more should we use this grace of God for doing what Christ commanded us to do? Love others as He has loved us.



"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent(this is the level of grace we receive), each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more.(this is when we use the grace of God to work in us and we share this grace with others through our acts of love, kindness and forgiveness which IS the gospel of Christ.) 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. (same thing. He didn't sit idle but went out and worked as we do with our labor of love)18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.(this is what we do when we take this free gift of grace and hide it in our hearts but never let our light shine to those around. We let our light shine but showing others the love of Christ by serving, loving and helping others.)

19“After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.’

21“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’ (this is the treasure Christ spoke of when He said, lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven. This is our reward for our labor in the flesh, 'the crown of righteousness' as Paul. "But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.")

22“The man with the two talents also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.’

23“His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24“Then the man who had received the one talent came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground.(kept it under a bushel, had faith but no works) See, here is what belongs to you.’

26“His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant!(lazy because he did not labor with works of love) So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28“‘Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance.(all wasted talents and wasted grace will be given to the true Children of God) Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ This is the same as Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Matthew 25 14:28

 

[dadof10]

You beat around the bush to say your are saved, but then say your not. So, no I don't get it. Don't want to get it. There is nothing I need to get.

To the question "do you know for sure you are saved", my only answer was "no". I was asked again if I was satisfied with my answer, to which I responded "yes". There is absolutely no ambiguity in those answers. I think the problem is you DO get it, you just have no answer for it.

So let me state what your saying about your salvation as I do get it. You may or may not be saved, you don't know and you wont know until some time in the future. If you want to hammer salvation into that go ahead.

Why no mention of the MAIN ideas in my theology, that a person CAN LOSE HIS SALVATION and SALVATION IS A PROCESS? Both these ideas ASSUME the FACT of initial salvation, because you have to have SOMETHING TO LOSE. I have said this more than once, yet when you tell me what you "think" I believe, you leave these two foundational principles out. Why? Again, you only bring up a straw dog you can kick instead of what I actually think. This is sad.

So that we are clear abut what I am saying. I am saved, and always will be from the moment I was saved. I am aware of my own salvation. OK?

Please...Don't act indignant and take an accusatory tone, OK? I know what your view is. You said it in the previous thread and this one. I'm not accusing you of being vague, as you unfairly accuse me. I'm accusing you of obfuscation and distraction, OK?

The only thing I am gaining in my salvation is more growth in my faith. That's it.

That's not what Paul means by "will be saved". You can say it all you want to, but it really means nothing until you prove it, which you can't do.

If there is something more I can add for clarification let me know.I understand what you think the gospel says for you as you have described it. I can't speak for why the others seem to understand your view better. I don't know that they do or not.

I'm pretty sure they understand my view as well as you do. They are just interested in discussion instead of distraction.

However, you don't need me to understand your view. My understanding or not of your view should not hinder your view.

LOL..This assumption is quite comical. You purposefully mischaracterizing my view will not lead to any "hindrance", thanks for the concern, though.

 

[smaller]

To the question "do you know for sure you are saved", my only answer was "no". I was asked again if I was satisfied with my answer, to which I responded "yes". There is absolutely no ambiguity in those answers. I think the problem is you DO get it, you just have no answer for it.

No ambiguity? You 'might' be saved then. Or you might not.

That is the definition of ambiguity in a nutshell.

To such views I like to say, show me how you might not be saved.

Make a convincing argument that you might not be.

Sometimes believers realize what they are trying to do to 'themselves' in that process.

s

 

[rrowell]

No ambiguity? You 'might' be saved then. Or you might not.

That is the definition of ambiguity in a nutshell.

To such views I like to say, show me how you might not be saved.

Make a convincing argument that you might not be.

Sometimes believers realize what they are trying to do to 'themselves' in that process.

s

Oh I get it, you KNOW your saved, because your one of the "once saved always saved" :waving

 

[smaller]

Oh I get it, you KNOW your saved, because your one of the "once saved always saved" :waving

Nah, I just get a kick out of 'freewillers' who sincerely try to convince me that they might not be saved because that is what their position is.

It's entertainment value for me.

:yes

 

[smaller]

It's also a common denominator of nearly all who think they can lose their salvation that they are quite convinced that they themselves are saved at the particular moment in time that they are convinced that someone else might not be.

Logic dictates that if a person holds they might not be saved, they must also hold that they themselves might not be saved at any particular moment in time themselves.

But the adherents for some strange reason are always convinced that when they are posting their position of 'might not be saved' that supposed fact never ever applies to them as they are convinced that at that particular moment they themselves are factually secure in their own salvation.

At least momentarily.

So momentarily saved is what they factually hold. From moment to moment.

Funny how that works isn't it?

They are always convinced that it can happen to some other believer. But seldom to themselves. It does not seem to occur to them they by their own positions may not in fact be saved, and in fact by virtue of their position they can have no more than momentary salvation.

s

 

[BornAgain]

Nah, I just get a kick out of 'freewillers' who sincerely try to convince me that they might not be saved because that is what their position is.

It's entertainment value for me.

:yes

Hab 2:5-6 KJV-King James Version

5 Yea also, because he transgresseth by wine, he is a proud man, neither keepeth at home, who enlargeth his desire as hell, and is as death, and cannot be satisfied, but gathereth unto him all nations, and heapeth unto him all people:

6 Shall not all these take up a parable against him, and a taunting proverb against him, and say, Woe to him that increaseth that which is not his! how long? and to him that ladeth himself with thick clay!
Hab 2:5-6 (KJV)

As a mighty man transgresseth through wine, he is proud, and remaineth not at rest." "For he, though he be a despiser, and powerful, and proud, yet shall he not have rest."

Proud, haughty, and ambitious; inebriated with his successes, and determined on more extensive conquests; and, like the grave, can never have enough: yet, after the subjugation of many peoples and nations, he shall be brought down, and become so despicable that he shall be a proverb of reproach, and be taunted and scorned by all those whom he had before enslaved.

And cannot be satisfied—When he has obtained all that is within his reach, he wishes for more; and becomes miserable, because any limits are opposed to his insatiable ambition. It is said of Alexander:—
Unus Pellaeo juveni non sufficit orbis;
Aestuat infelix angusto limite mundi.
Juv. Sat. 10:168.
One world sufficed not Alexander's mind;
Coop'd up, he seem'd on earth and seas confined.
And the poet justly ridicules him, because at last the sarcophagus was found too large for his body!
Habakkuk 2:6

Shall not all these take up a parable against him—His ambition, derangement, and the final destruction of his mighty empire. "He who towered so high, behold how low he is fallen!" "He made himself a god; behold, he herds with the beasts of the field!" "The disturber of the peace of the world is now a handful of dust!"

 

[BornAgain]

Sorry to ruin the integrity of your thread Ernest T. Bass, there was an unexpeted intruder who changed the value and meaning of the original thread.

 

[smaller]

There is perhaps an unintended consequence attached to condemning another believer's salvation.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

A simple fact is when you practice condemnation (promote another believers potential loss of salvation) you are in fact both the carrier and the receiver of same yourself.

As you measure, you are in fact only measuring to yourself in the process.

Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Divine Logic will dictate to some that the most beneficial measure to other believers is in fact the most beneficial to ones self.

Divine Principle 101

All of you momentary salvation adherents are permanently saved in my eyes. The limited truth of the matter as seen by others seeking that to not be the case is quite irrelevant to me in the light of benefit gained in seeing that way myself.

I am not required to bear the burden of eternal dire judgments to another believer. And I understand when I set foot on that ground I am out of my league as in 'not equipped' to limit God in Christ in that methodology.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It ain't a maybe in my eyes.

s

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yes, the saved obey Christ. The unsaved do not. That's the point. Those who will obey are the saved.

This is kind of a "which comes first" argument at this point.

Heb 5:9 does not say one is first saved while in a state of disobedience, then they obey. Obedience is a conditon to being saved, one first obeys then can be saved.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Determinist positions say yes. Perhaps not 'random' though in God's Eye. Those who do believe do so from His Direct Involvement and drawing, enabling them to see.

And even 'after sight' there are varying degrees of light that are distributed by God in Christ as well. This is clearly evidenced in the plethora of degrees of understandings that is prevalent within Christiandom in general.

"Christiandom" does not determine truth, God's word does.

There is a plethora of bible verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation.

The text is interesting in it's construct, because, believers all tend to see what they themselves want or are led to see.

This does not eliminate a superabundance of matters available to be seen. Again as evidenced in the plethora of 'different sights' that are rife within Christiandom in general. And this again will point directly back to various degrees of light distributed by God in Christ within the text itself.

Many matters are factually there to see. Whether they are seen or not is really the only question. And if there and not seen, what is there to look at but the limits of the reader themselves?

And even this will logically point back to the Creator Himself. Were we all designed and granted and made to see identically, then that is how we would all see, but that is obviously not the case.

Again, "Christiandom" does not determine truth. There is a lot of doctrinal error that gets put under the label "Christiandom".

Christ established just one church yet many religious organizations exist. There are many CONTRADICTIONS among these organizations. Jesus said God word is truth and truth does not contradict itself as these organizations do, so that is proof enough for me to see that all these organizations do not possess the truth that is God's word. So as I said this "Christiandom" is full of errors, untruths.

Choice really has little to do with it as it pertains to the individual.

Freewill advocates just can not seem to come to the reality that scripturally speaking there are at least 3 different wills that operate within the person.

The Will of God
The will of the adversary
The will of the person

Those who see those facts that are readily available to see if one is allowed to see them in the scriptures should logically and reasonably see that the role of the individual is blurred and obscured by the facts of the other operational wills.

The will that thinks itself alone as the free chooser is actually quite blinded.

But this is not to say they don't have 'some' Divine light and that light is sufficient unto their salvation as well.

enjoy!

smaller

Choice by man has everything to do with it. If man has no choice in his own eternal destiny then God is the culprit behind those that are lost, God has fault and blame upon Him for the lost. The man with one talent called God a "hard man", he tried to blame God for his action of burying his talent when he of his own choice buried that talent. And what happened to this one talent man who tried to put blame upon God?

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

There is perhaps an unintended consequence attached to condemning another believer's salvation.

Romans 2:1
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

A simple fact is when you practice condemnation (promote another believers potential loss of salvation) you are in fact both the carrier and the receiver of same yourself.

As you measure, you are in fact only measuring to yourself in the process.

Mark 4:24
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.

Divine Logic will dictate to some that the most beneficial measure to other believers is in fact the most beneficial to ones self.

Divine Principle 101

All of you momentary salvation adherents are permanently saved in my eyes. The limited truth of the matter as seen by others seeking that to not be the case is quite irrelevant to me in the light of benefit gained in seeing that way myself.

I am not required to bear the burden of eternal dire judgments to another believer. And I understand when I set foot on that ground I am out of my league as in 'not equipped' to limit God in Christ in that methodology.

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

It ain't a maybe in my eyes.

s

The bible says to judge righteous judgment.

Acts 8:20-22 "But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money. Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee. "

There was no consequence to Peter for judging Simon's salvation for Simon had no unconditional guarantee that he would remain saved and Peter rightly points out Simon's sin and shows Simon he had fallen from a saved position.

Obedience leads to salvation and continued obedience maintains salvation. Obedience does not earn salvation but a condition God put upon His free gift.