C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
No they havent.BobRyan said:
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
Can true Christians lose their salvation ?
- Thread starter jgredline
- Start date
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
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StoveBolts said:
Hey Jeff,
Can I get something in my inbox, too?!!
Hope all is well with you and yours.
Joe
: StoveBolts said:
Hi Stovebolt and Vic,
I did read the PM message from Potluck and yourself, but the debate format may not be appropriate for me. For one, this whole Universal thought is relatively new to me. I have been struggling for years with eternal punishment and a loving God philosophically. When I was challenged a while back over the meaning of 1Timothy 4:10, I started researching the Greek of particular words (Hell, eternal, and etc.) used in our English equivalent, and I found some glaring bias in the translations. The other reason, is that I am not sure I would be a good contender with the likes of some these well informed individuals on this forum.
Bubba
stovebolts
Member
- Nov 4, 2004
- 18,907
- 7,275
Hello Bubba,
For the integrity of this forum, please read the sticky "Concerning Universal Reconcilation... "
We have a designated forum for this topic. Please honor the rules of this site, it's in the best interest for all parties, including yourself.
Peace and Grace,
For the integrity of this forum, please read the sticky "Concerning Universal Reconcilation... "
We have a designated forum for this topic. Please honor the rules of this site, it's in the best interest for all parties, including yourself.
Peace and Grace,
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
StoveBolts said:
Does that mean that Universal Reconcilation is sticky?
Stovebolts,
The sticky is that often in replying to a particular comment, draws one to a area of controversy. I do not know how to answer Francesdesales question any other way. This is my response and will be my last, in regards to this subject. Hopefully, you will have grace extended my way this time.
Bubba
Francisdesales,
You wrote; “Now, IF the Cross of Christ "covers everything", doesn't that destroy the entire concept of judgment in the Scriptures? What exactly would be the point of judging - for damnation or heaven - as Christ points out - if the gates of hell were shut?â€Â
Well, as I stated to Vic and Stovebolts, this is a relatively new thought for me. Nonetheless, from what I have read from the Universal camp (Christian Universalists), that Hell is remedial, yet, one would not want to be present there, (possibly similar to the RCC Purgatory in some ways). Depending on the severity of ones life in regards to sin, determines the chastisement and duration. The “covering of Christâ€Â, is that once the remedial process has been completed, all that was pretence in the individual is now gone and they now have the revelation of the Lamb who was present there during the purification (Lake of Fire in Rev. 14:10).
In respect to the Church prior to Augustine, the UR people have strong support in the historical account of individuals and early creeds, but unfortunately this can not be discussed unless on the Debate forum. One of the philosophical considerations that I tried to expound on in another thread regarding “freewillâ€Â, is that depending on your circumstances that are totally out of your control, determines who you are in regards to race, class, where you are born and your spiritual influence, unless Divine revelation occurs. Thus with the recent disasters in China and Burma, the question of the state of those souls who never heard the gospel of our Lord, is now according to traditional beliefs, in torment for eternity is a difficult concept to receive for me.
Bubba
The sticky is that often in replying to a particular comment, draws one to a area of controversy. I do not know how to answer Francesdesales question any other way. This is my response and will be my last, in regards to this subject. Hopefully, you will have grace extended my way this time.
Bubba
Francisdesales,
You wrote; “Now, IF the Cross of Christ "covers everything", doesn't that destroy the entire concept of judgment in the Scriptures? What exactly would be the point of judging - for damnation or heaven - as Christ points out - if the gates of hell were shut?â€Â
Well, as I stated to Vic and Stovebolts, this is a relatively new thought for me. Nonetheless, from what I have read from the Universal camp (Christian Universalists), that Hell is remedial, yet, one would not want to be present there, (possibly similar to the RCC Purgatory in some ways). Depending on the severity of ones life in regards to sin, determines the chastisement and duration. The “covering of Christâ€Â, is that once the remedial process has been completed, all that was pretence in the individual is now gone and they now have the revelation of the Lamb who was present there during the purification (Lake of Fire in Rev. 14:10).
In respect to the Church prior to Augustine, the UR people have strong support in the historical account of individuals and early creeds, but unfortunately this can not be discussed unless on the Debate forum. One of the philosophical considerations that I tried to expound on in another thread regarding “freewillâ€Â, is that depending on your circumstances that are totally out of your control, determines who you are in regards to race, class, where you are born and your spiritual influence, unless Divine revelation occurs. Thus with the recent disasters in China and Burma, the question of the state of those souls who never heard the gospel of our Lord, is now according to traditional beliefs, in torment for eternity is a difficult concept to receive for me.
Bubba
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
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vic C. said:
Correct. They are yours AND Christ's, not just one or the other. Upon judgment, you'll get "credit" because of Christ.
Ain't that something?
Regards
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
vic C. said:
How does Free Will fit into that? Even though such things are by God's grace, is it not a cooperation with God's grace on out part - an act of the will - to actually DO the works?
francisdesales
Member
- Aug 10, 2006
- 7,793
- 4
Bubba said:
I have some serious doubts on that, since I have read the Fathers and don't recall them discussing "UR" - except to the degree that Christ died for all men. But that means redemption is AVAILABLE to all men, not GIVEN to all men.
No need to comment, just offering you the correct meaning of the Fathers on this topic. The Church continues to teach universal OFFERING, which leads to your next comment...
Bubba said:
Forgive me, Jeff and Vic, I MUST comment on this for the sake of Bubba and other people reading this - the above idea can torment someone and leads to one formulating a "UR" idea...
The Church nor the Scriptures do not teach that those who have never heard of the Gospel are condemned. Only those who REJECT it, as in John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Here, "believe not" refers NOT to "ignorance" but to willingly rejecting, as the Pharisees did. God will judge man based on what he knows - whether it is the "law placed in the heart", as per Romans 2, or whether one is a full-fledged Christian, whom, previously being "illuminated", have now "re-crucified" Christ as per Hebrews.
Hell is for those who reject God, not those who don't know about Him.
I hope that clears up some misperceptions. God is a God of love and only sends those to hell who reject Him.
If you desire to further discuss this, please PM me.
Regards
A
Arphaxad
Guest
Hello Everybody! :D
Could anything be any more clear and simple than these following verses?:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(underlines and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too easy? Very easy? Couldn't be that easy? Well the good news is that as far as the Lord judging and putting to death the person you and I used to be before we followed the Holy Spirit and came to God for salvation, God HAD to make that super easy for Man because there is no possible way Man could ever do it himself! :o
And after the Lord judges and puts that old spiritually dead, faithless, self-glorifying, God-hating, "natural man" within us to death as He did with Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, He "resurrects" us into being new creatures, alive unto God, with the spirit of Christ within us, his own spiritually holy children forever.
The Lord has to make this "resurrection" super easy also because, just as ONLY the Lord could judge and put the old "natural man" within all us believers to death, He ALONE is the only one who can "resurrect" all us believers into new creatures, just as He "resurrected" Saul of Tarsus into Paul the Apostle:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (past tense).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So sure it's easy! We don't have to do any of it except ask! Why don't we have to do any of it except ask? Simple!: We CAN'T do any of it except ask! Sorry, the Lord gets ALL the glory and Man gets NONE!
:
Can everyone just say: "Thanks Lord for your wonderful miraculous salvation. I'll stop "walking on eggs" now."
If you can say this "thank you" to the Lord, you might just hear: "Well done thou good and confident servant."
Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------
Could anything be any more clear and simple than these following verses?:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
1Jo 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
(underlines and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Too easy? Very easy? Couldn't be that easy? Well the good news is that as far as the Lord judging and putting to death the person you and I used to be before we followed the Holy Spirit and came to God for salvation, God HAD to make that super easy for Man because there is no possible way Man could ever do it himself! :o
And after the Lord judges and puts that old spiritually dead, faithless, self-glorifying, God-hating, "natural man" within us to death as He did with Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus, He "resurrects" us into being new creatures, alive unto God, with the spirit of Christ within us, his own spiritually holy children forever.
The Lord has to make this "resurrection" super easy also because, just as ONLY the Lord could judge and put the old "natural man" within all us believers to death, He ALONE is the only one who can "resurrect" all us believers into new creatures, just as He "resurrected" Saul of Tarsus into Paul the Apostle:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. (past tense).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So sure it's easy! We don't have to do any of it except ask! Why don't we have to do any of it except ask? Simple!: We CAN'T do any of it except ask! Sorry, the Lord gets ALL the glory and Man gets NONE!
:Can everyone just say: "Thanks Lord for your wonderful miraculous salvation. I'll stop "walking on eggs" now."
If you can say this "thank you" to the Lord, you might just hear: "Well done thou good and confident servant."
Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------
A
Arphaxad
Guest
Hi again Everyone! :D
Oh, almost forgot Godly living. Where does Godly living "fit" into this "salvation picture?":
Well, godly living has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Lord's miraculous work of salvation done within you at your Holy Spirit-enlightened request.
Godly living is a great idea, but it benefits only yourself and your own life and has no effect either way on the Lord's mighty work of salvation wrought within you:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Job 35:5-8 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds [which] are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or [if] thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?
7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
8 Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou [art]; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man. (underline and bolding are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, PLEEEASE don't make the painful, upsetting mistake of trying to "connect" God's inner spiritual work of salvation, to your good or not-so-good deeds. The Lord is NOT "phased" by you at all! If you live godly and do good, your reward will be great in many ways, none of which will be receiving or keeping God's free gift of salvation. Receiving or keeping God's miraculous FREE gift of salvation can NEVER be a reward or even a consequence of doing good. Because salvation is exactly what it says: SAVING US from our own sin, not rewarding us for doing good! :o
If the Lord in any way "connected" our supposed good deeds and/or godly living with His FREE gift of salvation then you could boast about it to your fellowservants instead of loving them. Not only that, if receiving or keeping salvation was based on our supposed good deeds and/or godly living, we might lose all appreciation of the faithless horrible self-glorifying unthankful condition God has delivered us FROM!
Anyway, So what reward will my good deeds and godly living produce for me if not to qualify me to receive/keep God's FREE gift of salvation? Good question! Are we too proud and pompous to admit that we'd all like to have a nice, prosperous, healthy, even opulent life? I'm not! Rewards for doing good ain't bad!:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 3:1-4 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
(underlines and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rewards listed above from the book of Proverbs are only a FEW of the many,many blessings listed in the bible as the consequences of godly living.
But PLEEEASE remember God's miraculous inner work of salvation and regeneration in us believers is a whole separate different thing! It's GOD'S work, not ours!
Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-------------
Oh, almost forgot Godly living. Where does Godly living "fit" into this "salvation picture?":
Well, godly living has absolutely NOTHING to do with the Lord's miraculous work of salvation done within you at your Holy Spirit-enlightened request.
Godly living is a great idea, but it benefits only yourself and your own life and has no effect either way on the Lord's mighty work of salvation wrought within you:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Job 35:5-8 Look unto the heavens, and see; and behold the clouds [which] are higher than thou.
6 If thou sinnest, what doest thou against him? or [if] thy transgressions be multiplied, what doest thou unto him?
7 If thou be righteous, what givest thou him? or what receiveth he of thine hand?
8 Thy wickedness may hurt a man as thou [art]; and thy righteousness may profit the son of man. (underline and bolding are my own).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, PLEEEASE don't make the painful, upsetting mistake of trying to "connect" God's inner spiritual work of salvation, to your good or not-so-good deeds. The Lord is NOT "phased" by you at all! If you live godly and do good, your reward will be great in many ways, none of which will be receiving or keeping God's free gift of salvation. Receiving or keeping God's miraculous FREE gift of salvation can NEVER be a reward or even a consequence of doing good. Because salvation is exactly what it says: SAVING US from our own sin, not rewarding us for doing good! :o
If the Lord in any way "connected" our supposed good deeds and/or godly living with His FREE gift of salvation then you could boast about it to your fellowservants instead of loving them. Not only that, if receiving or keeping salvation was based on our supposed good deeds and/or godly living, we might lose all appreciation of the faithless horrible self-glorifying unthankful condition God has delivered us FROM!
Anyway, So what reward will my good deeds and godly living produce for me if not to qualify me to receive/keep God's FREE gift of salvation? Good question! Are we too proud and pompous to admit that we'd all like to have a nice, prosperous, healthy, even opulent life? I'm not! Rewards for doing good ain't bad!:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pro 3:1-4 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments:
2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee.
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
4 So shalt thou find favour and good understanding in the sight of God and man.
(underlines and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The rewards listed above from the book of Proverbs are only a FEW of the many,many blessings listed in the bible as the consequences of godly living.
But PLEEEASE remember God's miraculous inner work of salvation and regeneration in us believers is a whole separate different thing! It's GOD'S work, not ours!
Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-------------
Francisdesales,francisdesales said:
I have never considered the RCC response in regards to the lost not having a chance to say yes to Jesus. It begs the question though; are those in Burma and China better off then those countries where the Gospel is prevalent? My Christian knowledge base until late has been Reform theology (still is in regards to the sovereignty of God). I know that within Reform circles, the idea is that all people deserve eternal punishment, because of the doctrine of Total Depravity and “Original Sinâ€Â. This has been the way to rationalize the belief in eternal punishment, when compared to the complete holiness of God.
Bubba
stovebolts
Member
- Nov 4, 2004
- 18,907
- 7,275
Bubba and francisdesales
I'm sure Vic C would agree,
Any further discussion pertaining to UR needs to be done within the appropriate forum (Debate)
Peace and Grace.
StoveBolts
I'm sure Vic C would agree,
Any further discussion pertaining to UR needs to be done within the appropriate forum (Debate)
Peace and Grace.
StoveBolts
B
BobRyan
Guest
vic C. said:
I would like to hear more about that.
in Christ,
Bob
B
BobRyan
Guest
Catholic Crusader said:
How does Free Will fit into that? Even though such things are by God's grace, is it not a cooperation with God's grace on out part - an act of the will - to actually DO the works?[/quote:35a74]
I say this with some caution -- CC is right on this one.
in Christ,
Bob
C
Catholic Crusader
Guest
BobRyan said:
I say this with some caution -- CC is right on this one.
in Christ,
Bob[/quote:f939e]
BobRyan said:
I say this with some caution -- CC is right on this one.
in Christ,
Bob[/quote:5c8c2]
I think one must first ascertain if we are talking about the act of “Regeneration†prior to salvation with no cooperation, which is a work of God (monergism) or exercising faith and trust in cooperation with God (synergistic) after the salvation experience. The main focus between Rome and Luther was gathered around this point. Is it God who must first make a person alive before faith is realized or does man have to cooperate with God to obtain salvation? Ephesian 2:1-9, seems to point to the Reform view of “regeneration precedes faithâ€Â.
Bubba
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