Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Catholic Crusader]

Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Catholic Crusader!

You wrote: "Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)." (end quote).

My reply: "Disqualified from WHAT?" The ministry? A Good trouble-free life? Disqualified from being a shining example of what true obedience to God will produce?:
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Acts 21:4 And finding disciples, we tarried there seven days: who said to Paul, through the Spirit, that he should not go up to Jerusalem.

Acts 21:8-14 And the next day departing, we came to Caesarea. And entering into the house of Philip the evangelist, who was one of the seven, we abode with him.
9 And he had four daughters, virgins, who did prophesy.

10 And as we tarried there for some days, there came from Judea a certain prophet, named Agabus.
11 Who, when he was come to us, took Paul's girdle: and binding his own feet and hands, he said: Thus saith the Holy Ghost: The man whose girdle this is, the Jews shall bind in this manner in Jerusalem and shall deliver him into the hands of the Gentiles.

12 Which when we had heard, both we and they that were of that place desired him that he would not go up to Jerusalem.

13 Then Paul answered and said: What do you mean, weeping and afflicting my heart? For I am ready not only to be bound, but to die also in Jerusalem, for the name of the Lord Jesus.

14 And when we could not persuade him, we ceased, saying: The will of the Lord be done

(underlines, bolding and color emphases are my own
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So in spite of numerous contrary instructions from the Lord, Paul INSISTED on going to Jerusalem to preach Christ to those who had crucified Him. Some of those "beloved" Jewish brethren had even vowed not to eat or drink until they had killed Paul! Basically the Lord had told Paul to concentrate PRIMARILY on ministering to the Gentiles (non-Jews).

Anyway, when Paul got to Jerusalem, he tried to preach Christ to the Jews present there and this caused a bloody riot, which I'm safe in saying was NOT the Lord's will. Then again, neither was Paul's willingness to "die at Jerusalem," thus possibly destroying the Lord's precious gift of ministry invested in him:
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Paul giving his testimony to the Jews at Jerusalem:

Acts 22:21-24 "And he (Jesus) said to me: Go, for unto the Gentiles afar off will I send thee."

22 And they (the Jews) heard him until this word and then lifted up their voice, saying: Away with such an one from the earth. For it is not fit that he should live.

23 And as they cried out and threw off their garments and cast dust into the air,

24 The (Roman) tribune commanded him to be brought into the castle, and that he should be scourged and tortured: to know for what cause they did so cry out against him.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
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Fortunately, the Lord was way ahead of Paul and had some Roman soldiers close at hand who snatched Paul away from his "beloved" Jewish brethren, thus preventing them from tearing Paul in numerous small pieces and also insuring that we today would have the inestimable gift of ALL of his letters.

I have the greatest respect and love for our precious Apostle Paul. However I do keep in mind that he was NOT Jesus. And I also remember that he did have some of his own plans for converting the Jews of his day to Christ. Unfortunately, "mixing" our own plans with the Lord's usually doesn't work out very well. And in this case it landed Paul up under "house arrest" in Rome, FAR from his "beloved" Jewish brethren.

Surprisingly, even though Paul described the Lord's plan in Romans 10 for provoking the Jews to envy by blessing the Gentiles with salvation and a close family relationship with Himself, Paul seemed to prefer his own painful plan for converting the Jews of his day. Go figure!

So, in spite of Paul zealously following much of his own plan to convert the Jews, he was still qualified to remain God's minister to us Gentiles. And he has done a magnificent job of it for the past 1900 years through his writings.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[francisdesales]

Hi Catholic Crusader!

You wrote: Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27)." (end quote).

My reply: "Disqualified from WHAT?" The ministry? A Good trouble-free life? Disqualified from being a shining example of what true obedience to God will produce?:

How about reading the context in 1 Corinthians 9:23 to 1 Corinthians 10:12?

You should be able to figure out what Paul is speaking of. Rather than jumping to verses hardly related to 1 Cor 9:27, read the context around it. You will find that Paul is NOT talking about only preachers can be disqualified from their ministry. That is a poor eigesis made by the OSAS group in denial...


"I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you (is EVERYONE a preacher? We ALL run the race...). 24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ (again, Paul is not speaking only of preachers and the heirarchy, but EVERYONE in the community). 5But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. (who, just the Levites and Priests?) 6Now these things were our examples (not just for the preachers, OURS), to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. 7Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 12Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall"

EVERYONE BEWARE... YOU CAN FALL. Not just the preachers from their ministry...

Regards

 

[Arphaxad]

Hey CC!

Unfortunately, like most believers, you see only "the eternal" in scripture while remaining oblivious to the temporal. Yes, Jesus had MUCH to say about God's precious gift of our PRESENT life.

Enoch and Elijah recognized the importance of BOTH the eternal AND the temporal. And in that understanding walked with and pleased God, thus completely escaping the grave. :o Now THAT'S SALVATION in the highest degree! FANTASTIC? Both Paul and Jesus tell us that Enoch and Elijah were only the beginning:
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1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (the generation that actually sees all the things Jesus prophesied) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (keep alive) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
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So the "bottom line" is that to correctly understand all that the New Testament writers are saying we need to make a careful distinction between their references to the eternal and the temporal. Both are important.

To REALLY understand the context of all scripture we also need to realize that the Lord has an ultimate plan for Man which He is working diligently to complete. "Why is it taking so long?" you might ask. The answer is simple: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." By that I mean, if the Lord forces His rulership upon us without us being willing, we'll have the same old mess we had with Adam:
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Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (underline and bolding are my own).
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Here's a bit about the Lord's ultimate plan for Man. Unfortunately for the adherents of old stale fruitless religious tradition, the following verses "fly in the face" of all they have been taught for centuries. And yes, these verses have EVERYTHING to do with salvation and it's ultimate goal for Man:
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Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(underlines and bolding are my own).
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By the way, in a previous post of mine on salvation, what part of "new creature" didn't you understand? Or how about "no man (including ourselves) shall pluck them out of my hand?" Or: "all things are become new?" Or: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts?" Or: "Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them?" Or: "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever?"

So you say you want the burden and credit for keeping your own salvation. Ok, here's what you have to do to walk righteously before the Lord: You must keep all 613 of God's holy laws perfectly without ever breaking even one. Any violation of any of God's holy laws will make you guilty of all of them in the sight of God. Good Luck! Do you not understand that the Lord is absolutely perfect and he cannot accept anything less than absolute perfection?:
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Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
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I think the "key" to understanding salvation is to fully realize that it's GOD who's doing the saving and not us! It's so simple how did anyone ever miss that? :o

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Catholic Crusader]

Can you please lay off the giant font? It does not support your argument

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi CC!

No more giant (large) font? Ok, done! I'll just try to increase font size on my own PC. Then my font will be large only for me.

Pax Christi,
"Arph"
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"Dogs call me by name."

 

[Bubba]

John 6:37-40 (English Standard Version)
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

The Word seems to say that God the Father has determined who will come to Jesus and all that come will never be lost. This is a salvation that can not be taken away.
Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

(duplicate)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

John 6:37-40 (English Standard Version)
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."

The Word seems to say that God the Father has determined who will come to Jesus and all that come will never be lost. This is a salvation that can not be taken away.
Bubba

Perhaps you should read that a little more carefully. He says "I will never cast out" and "I should lose nothing of all that he has given me" (emphasis on the I) and I agree. God will ALWAYS keep HIS promise. BUT, that does not address the fact that YOU could cast yourself out. This is where Free Will comes in. God will not force you to remain his adopted son.

So the point is, God will keep His word (as your quote indicates) but YOU may not keep YOUR word. This is why my previous post was right on the money:

.....Christians have a MORAL assurance of salvation. This means: God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]). BUT, we do have an ABSOLUTE assurance of heaven. This means that even though God will keep His word, WE may NOT, just like those kids I was telling you about. Therfore there can be no absolute assurance of salvation, because you don't know the choices you or anyone else may make in the future. Many times tradgedies strike, and some people turn away from God and die in that state of defiance. Stuff happens, as the saying goes.

The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

 

[Guest]

If He allows to you cast yourself out, He has lost you by allowing you to do that.

 

[Guest]

Hey CC!

Unfortunately, like most believers, you see only "the eternal" in scripture while remaining oblivious to the temporal. Yes, Jesus had MUCH to say about God's precious gift of our PRESENT life.

Enoch and Elijah recognized the importance of BOTH the eternal AND the temporal. And in that understanding walked with and pleased God, thus completely escaping the grave. :o Now THAT'S SALVATION in the highest degree! FANTASTIC? Both Paul and Jesus tell us that Enoch and Elijah were only the beginning:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (the generation that actually sees all the things Jesus prophesied) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luk 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken (keep alive) your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So the "bottom line" is that to correctly understand all that the New Testament writers are saying we need to make a careful distinction between their references to the eternal and the temporal. Both are important.

To REALLY understand the context of all scripture we also need to realize that the Lord has an ultimate plan for Man which He is working diligently to complete. "Why is it taking so long?" you might ask. The answer is simple: "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." By that I mean, if the Lord forces His rulership upon us without us being willing, we'll have the same old mess we had with Adam:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psa 110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. (underline and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here's a bit about the Lord's ultimate plan for Man. Unfortunately for the adherents of old stale fruitless religious tradition, the following verses "fly in the face" of all they have been taught for centuries. And yes, these verses have EVERYTHING to do with salvation and it's ultimate goal for Man:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

(underlines and bolding are my own).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way, in a previous post of mine on salvation, what part of "new creature" didn't you understand? Or how about "no man (including ourselves) shall pluck them out of my hand?" Or: "all things are become new?" Or: "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts?" Or: "Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them?" Or: "whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever?"

So you say you want the burden and credit for keeping your own salvation. Ok, here's what you have to do to walk righteously before the Lord: You must keep all 613 of God's holy laws perfectly without ever breaking even one. Any violation of any of God's holy laws will make you guilty of all of them in the sight of God. Good Luck! Do you not understand that the Lord is absolutely perfect and he cannot accept anything less than absolute perfection?:
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the "key" to understanding salvation is to fully realize that it's GOD who's doing the saving and not us! It's so simple how did anyone ever miss that? :o

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
---------------

Awesome posting, Arph.
(Nice sig, too. LOL)

 

[Catholic Crusader]

If He allows to you cast yourself out, He has lost you by allowing you to do that.

No, he is merely respecting your free will.

 

[Guest]

By choosing to respect my free will, He is choosing to lose me.

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello Rick!

Let's face it, Taking a HUGE free gift of salvation from the Lord without contributing our own efforts or paying something in return is not easy for everybody, ESPECIALLY when that gift of salvation is paid for by the death of another person. Here's a parable to illustrate the point. If we could give it a title I think it should be: "The tale of the wounded ego.":
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Mat 18:23-35 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and "children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
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I believe at least ONE of the points of this parable is that coming to "the King" for forgiveness of a HUGE, unpayable debt takes a lot of humility, which not everybody has. Hence, for some, a lot of humiliation, anger and a severely wounded ego is generated in the process. All through the history of Man "the remedy" for a severely wounded ego has been to humiliate another person or persons.

Of course we know this does definitely not accomplish the desired effect, which is what I believe Jesus is pointing out in this parable. The wicked servant who tried to salve his wounded ego by humiliating his fellowservant, ended up far worse off than if he had just thanked the King profusely for the tremendous blessing he had received and passed the same kindness on to others.

So some receive their salvation very humbly and thankfully, like the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her own hair and tears, while others receive it painfully, having to realize that they have not followed in the footsteps of Jesus as they always thought they did. The latter always mention their supposedly difficult but unclear requirements for obtaining and/or keeping salvation.

This lack of clarity provides ample opportunity for them to apply their own vague "salvation requirements" to the lives of others to bring out supposed salvation disqualifications, while at the same time using their same vague "salvation requirements" to exalt and glorify their own supposedly virtuous salvation qualifications.

Thus by totally ignoring God's clearly written simple promises for receiving God's miraculous salvation, the temptation arises to deceive themselves into feeling more righteous and deserving than all the other supposedly "doubtful" believers. Hence also the potential to falsely feel more certain of their own salvation and less beholden to God. But, as in the parable above, it doesn't work! :

If those who have "painfully" received their salvation would ever use GOD'S standard for righteousness they would immediately discover the total uselessness of their "salvation-keeping efforts." But they usually use their own "standard" in deluding themselves to falsely believe they are walking so righteously that their walk is somehow allowing the Lord to preserve their salvation, thus they "helped" a lot and don't owe so much to the Lord after all!


However, I in no way disrespect godly living. It's just that it doesn't affect God's miraculous work of justifying and sanctifying you. If you live godly it benefits YOU, not God:
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1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. (underline and bolding are my own).
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Dear Lord, under your laws of holiness we're ALL "dead ducks." Thanks for saving and spiritually resurrecting us believers alive and holy unto you.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Bubba]

Perhaps you should read that a little more carefully. He says "I will never cast out" and "I should lose nothing of all that he has given me", and I agree. God will ALWAYS keep HIS promise. BUT, that does not address the fact that YOU could cast yourself out. This is where Free Will comes in. God will not force you to remain his adopted son.

The Word says whoever the Father causes to come to Jesus "I will never cast out". The reason we come is that the Holy Spirit is efficacious (gets the desired results)when He changes our hearts. Only then do we decide to follow Jesus. Since we are now a new creation, it is a done deal. We do not and can not change what God has made us become.
Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

By choosing to respect my free will, He is choosing to lose me.

It is your choice, just as going to hell is a persons choice. God does not send people to hell, people send themselves there. Same goes for this.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

...The Word says...

"The Word says", "The Word says"... ...I got to tell you, that gets a little annoying after a while. What you mean is "Your interpretation of The Word says...".

I know what the Bible says, and it ain't saying what you're trying to make it say. You are only quoting verses that support one view, and ignoring verses that say otherswise. That type of reading leads to an imbalanced understanding and false doctrine.

As I said before:

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

 

[Bubba]

It is your choice, just as going to hell is a persons choice. God does not send people to hell, people send themselves there. Same goes for this.

Have ever really considered 1Corinthians 2:14, where the natural man can not receive the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him. A heart transplant must happen first (Eph. 2:1-9).
Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

Okay. You go with that. I'm done.

 

[Bubba]

Recall this Scripture: "If we have died with him [in baptism; see Rom. 6:3-4] we shall also live with him; if we persevere we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 2:11-12). So, if we do NOT persevere, we shall NOT reign with him. In other words, Christians can forfeit heaven. Jesus tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31-46). Ergo, if you do not endure to the end, well........

The Bible makes it clear that Christians have a moral assurance of salvation (God will be true to his word and will grant salvation to those who have faith in Christ and are obedient to him [1 John 3:19-24]), but the Bible does NOT teach that Christians have a guarantee of heaven. There can be no absolute assurance of salvation. The Bible says, "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

Note that this includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). In saying this he points out that even he cannot be infallibly sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

[/quote]

Catholic Crusader,
Who is it that will "persevere", "remain", "qualify", "overcome" and etc? Those who believe are
the ones who overcome the worlds (1John 5:4-5) temptation, by the Holy Spirit. If the individual does not demonstrate fruit in their lives, they must decide if they are truly saved (2 Cor. 13:5).

Bubba