Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Arphaxad]

Hi Bubba!

I think you're getting that balanced perspective I mentioned. Here's a definition of "Gehenna" you might appreciate: "The spiritual "trash dump" of self-condemnation, where the fire of truth is not quenched and the self-destructive "worm of guilt" dieth not. Here's a song written by Roger Miller showing what it's like to be in "Gehenna":
====================================================================
"Dang Me" by Roger Miller:

Well here I sit, gettin' ideas
Ain't nothing but a fool would live like this
Out all night and runnin' wild
Woman sittin' home with a month old child

CHORUS:
Dang me, dang me
They oughta take a rope and hang me
High from the highest tree
Woman would you weep for me.

Just sittin' around drinkin' with the rest of the guys
Six rounds bought, and I bought five
Spent the groceries and half the rent
Like fourteen dollars and twenty seven cents.

Dang me, dang me
They oughta take a rope and hang me
High from the highest tree
Woman would you weep for me.

They say roses are red and violets are purple
Sugar is sweet and so is maple surple
Well I'm the seventh out of seven sons
My pappy was a pistol
I'm a son of a gun.

Dang me, dang me
They oughta take a rope and hang me
High from the highest tree
Woman would you weep for me.
=================================================================================

Literally "Gehenna" is a trash dump just outside of Jerusalem. Spiritually it's a self-made "Hell" we put ourselves in by doing, for whatever reason, things we hate. "Gehenna" is a "place" where people place little or no value or self-esteem on themselves at all, a place of self-hatred.

God's mercy is the answer for "Gehenna" also.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[francisdesales]

I've got an interesting question:

Can ANY of us TRULY consider ourselves 'Christians' BEFORE it's OVER. Before this life is ENDED, can ANY of us TRULY KNOW that we ARE what we PROFESS to BE?

Why? So you can say God owes you something?

We do the best we can, Mike. This attempt to "be a perfect Christian or else" is a sad parody of what Christ wants of us - a relationship.

Humans do not have perfect relationships. Thus, we should not demand a perfect relationship on this side of death with God, either.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

after re-reading my question I can SEE the purpose of your response. But I didn't mean it to offer disparity. I was simply offering a means of contemplation concerning the topic.

IF one CAN 'loose their salvation', how would one KNOW 'exactly HOW' they ARE to BE judged UNTIL their life is COMPLETE.

Since I am unable to judge the heart of ANOTHER, in the same respect, it would be VERY difficult to 'judge one's OWN heart'. For UNLESS one is able to STAY in the Spirit THROUGHOUT their ENTIRE LIVES, there IS always the possibilty of the flesh BEING the influencer of one's UNDERSTANDING. For we have been TOLD that Satan 'like a ravenous lion, just WAITS to catch us 'off guard' so that he may be ABLE to subvert the TRUTH into a lie. To devour us through deceit.

I know what many would offer in reply to this, but the examples are MANY that what I offer HAS validity. For not only does the Word offer such warning, but the examples are myriad in the very time and place in which we LIVE. That there are 'cults' among us and those that have subverted the truth and teach it openly to followers with itching ears just BEGGING to hear MORE PLAINLY offers that WE ARE able to BE 'influenced' IF we are NOT in The Spirit ALWAYS. Is that even POSSIBLE? That we can LIVE among those of this world and BE 'in The Spirit' EVERY MOMENT OF OUR LIVES?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Let me offer THESE few words in defense of my previous posts:

2Cor.11

[3] But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
[4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
[13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
[14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
[15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

And these are BUT a few lines of MANY that offered in the same understanding. And that BEING that THESE WORDS were written to US. To those that would CHOOSE to read them. Not to strangers, but to those that Paul loved. Offering HIS fear and warning that Satan IS able to devour those that are not FIRMLY grounded in Word and Spirit. NO, NOT 'the world', but those that PROFESS to BE 'Christian'.

Now, it is offered above that there WILL be those that have 'transformed THEMSELVES' into 'false apostles'. And it is further offered that THESE are ABLE to transform THEMSELVES into a SEMBLANCE of MINISTERS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Now WHY the warning if there is NOT the possibility of US being FOOLED by such as THESE? WHY would Paul HAVE fear of such if such is NOT POSSIBLE?

Just 'food for thought' folks. this issue of LOOSING Salvation isn't really that difficult to determine if one ACCEPTS what has been offered instead of attempting to 'create' their OWN understanding.

And ANYONE that would DENY the power of Satan, in my opinion, MUST be MORE influenced by HIM that through The Spirit. For that is ONE of his 'greatest' TRICKS: His ability to 'trick' MANY into a false belief that HE DOESN'T exist.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

fran,

after re-reading my question I can SEE the purpose of your response. But I didn't mean it to offer disparity. I was simply offering a means of contemplation concerning the topic.

Ok. Understood.

IF one CAN 'loose their salvation', how would one KNOW 'exactly HOW' they ARE to BE judged UNTIL their life is COMPLETE.

That's my point. We DON'T KNOW! We can have "moral assurance" that God will fulfill His promises, but we do not have certain knowledge that ANY of us are going to heaven. The Scriptures often speak of perseverance. No need to persevere if you are guaranteed something, correct? Thus, we CONTINUE to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

Since I am unable to judge the heart of ANOTHER, in the same respect, it would be VERY difficult to 'judge one's OWN heart'.

I wholeheartedly agree - which is why I never claim that I know for sure that I am going to heaven. I will beg for God's mercy upon my death. My hope is that the Lord will allow my imperfect self to eventually enter into union with Him upon my death. But it is hope, not certainty.

I know what many would offer in reply to this, but the examples are MANY that what I offer HAS validity. For not only does the Word offer such warning, but the examples are myriad in the very time and place in which we LIVE.

OK, we are on the same page...

Regards

 

[cyberjosh]

That's my point. We DON'T KNOW! We can have "moral assurance" that God will fulfill His promises, but we do not have certain knowledge that ANY of us are going to heaven.

You probably know by now that I do not disqualify the possibility of one loosing their salvation for absolute apostacy, however since I equally take a balanced approach to the Bible I did want to point out two Scriptures that would seem to imply that we can reach a point when we have that complete assurance (though I don't believe - unfortunately - that every Christian is diligent enough to procure it for themselves). The first is 2 Peter 1:10 which says for us to "make your calling and election sure", and since I am a man of simple yet firm faith I believe that when the Bible gives us a command that God can enable us to keep it by His grace (if we will not recieve it in vain) and that we can reach a point when we can indeed "make our election sure" here & now in this life. Election in God's eyes is always sure, and no true elect person can fall way, but you are correct in that often we do not know if we are among the elect, and thus why I often emphasize fear and trembling before God rather than careless confidence (which often leads to complacency) that we can never loose our salvation (and those that did have genuine confidence would have the fear of the Lord already working in them). But the one who is diligent enough to make it sure can indeed have a sweet confidence in God about their salvation, and Paul seemed to know well before he died that he for sure was among the elect - although he knew he could be disqualified from his minsitry and quite possibly ruin his testimony (which would have been grevious to him personally since he had such a heart for souls and was willing to stay alive just to do it when death seemed more preferable [Phillipians], since ultimately he knew where he was going and that he would be with the Lord when he departed).

The second passage is 1 John 3:19-21 which says, "We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him, in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God". This can basically be summed up in the statment that "salvation isn't a feeling" (and thank God it isn't!) since emotions can change with the wind but we can have firm assurance in Christ where that anchor still holds, even in our times of doubt since "God is greater than our heart".

Those two things I take solace in, for I do not serve a Christ who lords the possibility of apostacy over me (though I will admit it seems most possible - and I hope to never find out) but a Christ who offers fullness of joy and assurance in His salvation, and I for one will press (persevere, endure, make sure) toward the mark toward my savior, and because of that I believe that I already have made my election sure since I pursue God and have seen His salvation and have no desire to turn back. I'm sold for good guys, I'm solid gone - I'm not turning back, and thank my God that's why I have reason to rejoice today! Hallelujah!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

cybershark5886,

I can 'agree' that it may very well BE possible to KNOW many 'things' pertaining to Christ and The Father, I would still offer that 'confidence' is NOT the 'same thing' as KNOWING. For confidence would be BELIEF and belief is NOT knowing. For we are REQUIRED to live by FAITH. If we could live by KNOWING, then I am SURE that this would have been offered in Word.

We have NEVER 'seen God'. We MUST accept this through FAITH. Many would say, "I KNOW'', and I CANNOT say that they are wrong. But faith is the belief in things UNPROVABLE through physical evidence. That some would offer that they HAVE physical evidence is limited to 'their own' concience.

But WE are unable to BE our 'own judges'. That some WILL be judges does not offer that we have REACHED this point YET. And I would offer that if we are unable to judge OTHERS as of YET, then we are HARDLY able to BE judges of 'ourselves'.

I understand completely what you have offered Cyber. And there is NOTHING 'wrong' with FAITH. But the question STiLL begs an answer as to; DO we KNOW that our faith is RIGHTEOUS? CAN we be IN The Spirit at ALL times. And CAN NOT being, IN The Spirit at all times LEAD us into an UNRIGHTEOUS faith.

When we are able to answer these questions, then we are able to SEE that what we THINK or believe can be held with confidence. But that confidence may well be ABLE to be influenced into an 'unnatural state' or that which is was NOT MEANT TO BE.

For just LOOK at ALL the different denominations. Look at ALL the different teachings associated with each. Now, question: Can they ALL be RIGHT in each of those 'things' in which they DIFFER? And if NOT, then what EFFECT may those differences HAVE on those that follow them? And what IF some of those differences ARE able to separate those that BELIEVE in them FROM the TRUTH?

I believe you will be able to better understand my comments once these words are read and understood. i KNOW to EACH of us, what we BELIEVE is what we place our FAITH in. But is that ALWAYS, for EACH of us, the TRUTH?

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

You probably know by now that I do not disqualify the possibility of one loosing their salvation for absolute apostacy, however since I equally take a balanced approach to the Bible I did want to point out two Scriptures that would seem to imply that we can reach a point when we have that complete assurance (though I don't believe - unfortunately - that every Christian is diligent enough to procure it for themselves). The first is 2 Peter 1:10 which says for us to "make your calling and election sure",

Josh,

I understand what you are saying. However, at what POINT has one "made one's calling and election sure"? Does a meter in heaven peg out, stating Josh has reached "surety" of election? Does a bell go off somewhere? How do you KNOW you have reached that point where you are "sure"? I don't believe this verse states that. Again, by doing what Peter discusses, we are making our election more "certain", since we trust that by doing these things, we are pleasing to God - and God is righteous and will reward us for our obedience. But again, it has not been a Catholic teaching that we can infallibly know we are saved, except by a singular revelation from God (rare).

In other words, Peter's words are theoretically applied to the Christian. He doesn't give a practical point where we have "crossed the finish line" in this life...

and since I am a man of simple yet firm faith I believe that when the Bible gives us a command that God can enable us to keep it by His grace (if we will not recieve it in vain) and that we can reach a point when we can indeed "make our election sure" here & now in this life.

God never removes free will from us. The Scriptures note that even the righteous can return to wicked ways. Naturally, this is very unusual - but the possibility exists. Otherwise, Peter wouldn't mention it and the "return to the vomit" of our former lives...

Election in God's eyes is always sure, and no true elect person can fall way, but you are correct in that often we do not know if we are among the elect, and thus why I often emphasize fear and trembling before God rather than careless confidence (which often leads to complacency) that we can never loose our salvation (and those that did have genuine confidence would have the fear of the Lord already working in them).

Agree. Spread the word, brother!

But the one who is diligent enough to make it sure can indeed have a sweet confidence in God about their salvation, and Paul seemed to know well before he died that he for sure was among the elect - although he knew he could be disqualified from his minsitry and quite possibly ruin his testimony (which would have been grevious to him personally since he had such a heart for souls and was willing to stay alive just to do it when death seemed more preferable [Phillipians], since ultimately he knew where he was going and that he would be with the Lord when he departed).

I disagree with your exegesis of 1 Cor 9 - the context is not about ministry. However, I agree with the general thesis of your statement - that is why I said we can have "moral" certainty. We are to persevere - and our hope is based upon God's righteousness.

The second passage is 1 John 3:19-21 which says, "We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him, in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God". This can basically be summed up in the statment that "salvation isn't a feeling" (and thank God it isn't!) since emotions can change with the wind but we can have firm assurance in Christ where that anchor still holds, even in our times of doubt since "God is greater than our heart".

I equate this to "moral" assurance, not scientific certainty of salvation.

Those two things I take solace in, for I do not serve a Christ who lords the possibility of apostacy over me (though I will admit it seems most possible - and I hope to never find out) but a Christ who offers fullness of joy and assurance in His salvation, and I for one will press (persevere, endure, make sure) toward the mark toward my savior, and because of that I believe that I already have made my election sure since I pursue God and have seen His salvation and have no desire to turn back. I'm sold for good guys, I'm solid gone - I'm not turning back, and thank my God that's why I have reason to rejoice today! Hallelujah!

No, I don't believe God "lords over us" the possibility of apostacy - but He does give us free will. God desires all men to be saved - and yet, God ALLOWS men to condemn themselves... I am trying to put my thoughts into this mindset, and it must be very difficult for God to watch His beloved creations willingly reject Him. I get a feeling of this when my daughter deliberately disobeys me when I know it is hurting her... Free will is an amazing gift from God - and this gift "costs" God, if I may say that.

I pray you do not turn back, Josh. I sincerely doubt those who DO turn back thought they were going to turn back when they first converted to Christ... That is why we must continue to pray to God for perseverance.

Regards

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Francis!


Just a quick note to mention some frequently overlooked accurate definitions by which we might all increase our understanding of the truth: In God's sight there are no degrees of righteousness, holiness, truth, certainty, or pregnancy. A person is either TOTALLY RIGHTEOUS or TOTALLY UNRIGHTEOUS. There is no "in-between" to righteousness, holiness, truth, certainty, or pregnancy. It might seem strange to mention pregnancy, but it's a perfect example of something which obviously has no degrees. Neither can a thing be "more certain," or "less certain." A thing can only be "certain" or "uncertain."

The truth of what I'm saying has critical implications for our discussion here, For example: To walk righteously in God's sight, one must keep every one of His 613 holy commandments perfectly without breaking even one EVER! So by that standard, clearly set forth by God in Deuteronomy 28, no one, saved or otherwise, EVER walks righteously before the Lord in themselves. So COMPLETE DEPENDENCY on Christ is our ONLY HOPE!. Sorry, no glory to man, saved or otherwise. :-? :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Deu 28:15-19 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe TO DO ALL his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the city, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the field.

17 Cursed [shall be] thy basket and thy store.

18 Cursed [shall be] the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou comest in, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou goest out.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not IN ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead ("dead ducks" under God's holy Law), and your life is hid (in mercy) with Christ in God.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (judging yourselves under God's holy Law).

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace (the complete paying power of Christ's shed blood).

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient (helpful): all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient (beneficial): all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

(underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let's apply these oft-overlooked accurate definitions of righteousness, certainty, holiness and truth to our discussion here and bravely see where they lead. :o I strongly suspect these new definitions will lead to a totally new, and for some, a temporarily shocking but accurate understanding of Salvation.

Those last five verses above about "being dead" under God's holy Law and being alive only under the complete paying power of Christ's shed blood, might take some contemplation to be fully understood. In a "nutshell": "EVERYONE, saved or unsaved, is totally unrighteous in themselves. In ourselves we are DEAD!


Grace, then Peace,
"Arph"
--------------
P.S. There are no degrees of "dead" either. :-?

 

[Bubba]

Hi Francis!


Just a quick note to mention some frequently overlooked accurate definitions by which we might all increase our understanding of the truth: In God's sight there are no degrees of righteousness, holiness, truth, certainty, or pregnancy. A person is either TOTALLY RIGHTEOUS or TOTALLY UNRIGHTEOUS. There is no "in-between" to righteousness, holiness, truth, certainty, or pregnancy. It might seem strange to mention pregnancy, but it's a perfect example of something which obviously has no degrees. Neither can a thing be "more certain," or "less certain." A thing can only be "certain" or "uncertain."

The truth of what I'm saying has critical implications for our discussion here, For example: To walk righteously in God's sight, one must keep every one of His 613 holy commandments perfectly without breaking even one EVER! So by that standard, clearly set forth by God in Deuteronomy 28, no one, saved or otherwise, EVER walks righteously before the Lord in themselves. So COMPLETE DEPENDENCY on Christ is our ONLY HOPE!. Sorry, no glory to man, saved or otherwise. :-? :
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jam 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one [point], he is guilty of all.

Deu 28:15-19 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe TO DO ALL his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the city, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] in the field.

17 Cursed [shall be] thy basket and thy store.

18 Cursed [shall be] the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19 Cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou comest in, and cursed [shalt] thou [be] when thou goest out.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not IN ALL THINGS which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead ("dead ducks" under God's holy Law), and your life is hid (in mercy) with Christ in God.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, (judging yourselves under God's holy Law).

Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace (the complete paying power of Christ's shed blood).

1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

(underlines, parentheses and color emphases are my own).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So let's apply these oft-overlooked accurate definitions of righteousness, certainty, holiness and truth to our discussion here and bravely see where they lead. :o I strongly suspect these new definitions will lead to a totally new, and for some, a temporarily shocking but accurate understanding of Salvation.

Those last five verses above about "being dead" under the Law and being alive under Christ's shed blood, might take some contemplation to be fully understood. In a "nutshell": "EVERYONE, saved or unsaved, is totally unrighteous in themselves. In ourselves we are DEAD!

Grace, then Peace,
"Arph"
--------------

Arph,
A very timely post, we are definitely in need of a Savior, because apart from Him we can do nothing.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Bubba!

RIGHT ON! Not only can we do nothing apart from Him, but apart from Him we can't do anything righteous either! But IN HIM we can do nothing in our spirit that's unrighteous:
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1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his (God's) seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin (in his spirit), because he is born of God.

1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not (in his spirit); but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

(parentheses are my own).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1 John 3:9 in the original Greek says: "ou dunamai hamartano" (is incapable of sin).

1 John 3:9 in the Latin Vulgate says: " non potest peccare" which translates to: "has no power or ability to sin."

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-------------

 

[cyberjosh]

This is bit difficult for me to articulate Joe and I'm trying to do it humbly and fairly since Scripture says, "It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them" (Ecclesiastes 7:18) and that is definitely what I'm attempting to do now. So bear with me here. You wrote:

Josh,

I understand what you are saying. However, at what POINT has one "made one's calling and election sure"? Does a meter in heaven peg out, stating Josh has reached "surety" of election? Does a bell go off somewhere? How do you KNOW you have reached that point where you are "sure"? I don't believe this verse states that. Again, by doing what Peter discusses, we are making our election more "certain", since we trust that by doing these things, we are pleasing to God - and God is righteous and will reward us for our obedience.

I understand what you are saying also and your point is valid. I think what I'm trying to say though is that it's not about getting "to the mark" (a "meter") and then saying "Yep I'm here, I've made my election sure" because any of the true elect would inevitably live a life of perseverance and endurance and walk in a fear of God in constantly pressing toward that mark (like Paul said "not that I have already attained it"), and realize that "it's not over till it's over" so to speak since we must "persevere to the end", but the idea I'm trying to convey is that once you've begun on that path and you determine for yourself to walk down it and count all things else rubbish (as did Paul), what else is there to turn to? I try to qualify this and elaborate below.

*And also, as a side note, Paul seemed very confident that when he did depart from this life, that we was going to be at home with the Lord (and while still yet alive Paul said "I have fought the good fight" and he knew he was going to continue on it and not turn back), that's the type of assurance I'm talking about.*

God has worked in so many ways in my life that I've determined to (and I automatically do) immediately fall back on God in times of doubt, troubled times, etc., etc. and each time God makes you a little bit stronger, and each time a little less of the world is appealing to you and a little more of God is shown to you. It reminds me of that old hymn that says "then the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace". Man I'll tell you what, that's what I'm in it for, I desire to see God's glory - and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that right now God is working in me (and every day) to transform me into the image of His Son, and I would posit that as we become more like Jesus, the more immune (less susceptible) we will be to the world's ways. Now am I saying that we will not stumble and fall? No of course not, and I wouldn't even admit that one could apostacize if I didn't think one could go the other direction as well, but I think that for those that are actively pursuing God and whom God has made more & more strong and dependent on Him that it will become all that much more easier for God to "keep our foot from stumbling" as Jude tells us and "complete in us that good work" as Paul tells us.

I think it is indeed an issue of our will, but here is the "what if" that I'm proposing here (we already know the "what if" of 'if' you turn away: apostacy; but now consider...): "what if" you surrender your will to God, by this meaning that you submit it to Him humbly and allow God to work in you? Then, I say, just as we know that God is faithful to keep His promises so also we can know that when God is in control that He will keep us from stumbling (As Jude tells us that He so ably can). Where then is our part in this? To determine for ourselves (test ourselves, and "make sure") to pursue God, and count all other things as rubbish, and when me make a solemn determination (and have been walking in it - so as to have seen the fruit of our resolve - and God has made us stronger in it) there begins to grow a confidence in you, not a confidence of one's own abilities but in the might and power of God working in them.

I've experienced and now reject the rubbish and filth of the world and I've seen beauty in God and the indescribable glory of who He is (even if only a glimpse of it) and it has hooked me (as it did Paul). I've come to some points in my life when I've been given a choice to quit and give it up, but I've always run to God in these times and said (like Peter did to Jesus when other disciples fell away - John 6:66-70), "Where else could I go?" And I believe that when you train yourself (nay, even long for it) to always fall back on God no matter the circumstance I do believe you can have dealt massive blows to any self-confidence and pride in the flesh (having a humble and contrite spirit), and where there is humbleness of heart God moves mightily. My confidence in God has grown time and time again through trials and I'm beginning to see things that I never want to go back to and already count as loss and rubbish for Christ. In light of that I have confidence that this will continue, and that God will work in my heart time and time again regardless of the circumstance, and continue to bring me closer to Him. In this I have no doubt or wavering faith about but true confidence, not in my ability, but in God's. Do you see what I am saying?

Agree. Spread the word, brother!

Yes, and the fear of the Lord is the key. And what I've said above about determining ahead of time to pursue God and count all other things rubbish, consider if we determine to do all the things to assure our salvation that the Bible tells us of:

1) Test ourselves to see if we are in the faith
2) Make our election sure
3) Take heed (be watchful) lest we think we stand in instead fall
4) Remain humble and do not harden our heart
5) Press toward (persevere) the mark

If we walk in these things I don't see how one could go wrong, if we are constantly testing, constantly watching, constantly pressing on. And on top of all this, for one who is a true child of God (and sometimes even when they are not) God will chase you. God didn't give up on Jonah, he chased Him and got His attention. Yes you can reach a point where after God chases you and you reject him time after time (the ultimate blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - the unforgivable sin) you will apostacize, but for one who has had God's working in them, matured (maturity I think is significant when spoken of in Scripture - but you of course have to use discretion to know whether you really are mature in the faith or not), and then on top of that will have God chase you and chastize you for your benefit if you start straying - I then believe it will get such a Christian back on track real quick when they have no illusions about God and have a true fear of Him. And notice that in the context of Hebrews 6:4-6 that the ones Paul (whom I believe wrote it) was talking to aught to have already been teachers, etc. in other words they weren't constantly pressing, pursuing, seeking, growing, maturing, but were rather still almost as infants and immature. I think there's something about the Christian who is as of yet still immature where the those warnings are of especial urgency, and find it less and less likely that as you walk with God and mature (which entails walking in the fear of the Lord and everything else I've qualified it with) that you will fall away. That's how I see it any way.

Your thoughts?


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[francisdesales]

Just a quick note to mention some frequently overlooked accurate definitions by which we might all increase our understanding of the truth: In God's sight there are no degrees of righteousness, holiness, truth, certainty, or pregnancy. A person is either TOTALLY RIGHTEOUS or TOTALLY UNRIGHTEOUS. There is no "in-between" to righteousness, holiness, truth, certainty, or pregnancy. It might seem strange to mention pregnancy, but it's a perfect example of something which obviously has no degrees. Neither can a thing be "more certain," or "less certain." A thing can only be "certain" or "uncertain."

I don't totally agree with that. While I agree that God will judge us to either heaven or hell - man can have various degrees of holiness. Thus, Scriptures speak of GROWING in holiness, virtue, and so forth.

Regards

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Francis!

Thanks for your response. I can't find anything in the Latin Vulgate or original Greek bibles about "growing in holiness." Here's the Dictionary definition of "Holiness": Adjective:"belonging to or derived from or associated with a divine power."

Could a divine power be only partially holy? :o I don't think so. "Holy" is "an absolute," both biblically and grammatically. The absolute quality of biblical holiness is easily provable from many scriptures. In the OT, if something holy touched something unholy or profane, the unholy/profane thing became instantly and permanently holy:
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Exd 3:5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest [is] holy ground. (Would that be "partially holy ground?" :o )

Exd 29:37 Seven days thou shalt make an atonement for the altar, and sanctify it; and it shall be an altar most holy: whatsoever toucheth the altar shall be holy.

Lev 6:18 All the males among the children of Aaron shall eat of it. [It shall be] a statute for ever in your generations concerning the offerings of the LORD made by fire: every one that toucheth them shall be holy.

(underlines and parentheses are my own).
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There are MANY more scriptures about the absolute quality of holiness throughout the entire bible.
And obviously, any one who even touched something holy became instantly and permanently holy themselves! :o :
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Exd 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: (underline is my own).
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How about holy water? Can it be only "partially holy?" Can there be degrees of holiness in holy water?

Oh, almost forgot, holiness is, and MUST BE, an internal condition rather than an external status. There is no such thing possible as "a holy status" for a sinner. That would be ridiculous. Holiness by definition always pertains to the NATURE of a thing. Thus it must be an inherent condition. Think about it. :-? Would you rather bless yourself with water that was "considered holy" or water that was actually holy?

I don't know if I ever mentioned it, but I am VERY careful never to write any idea or concept for which I don't have solid scriptural support. I always attempt to reveal and coordinate scripture, not invent it! :

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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P.S. Are all we believers "dead ducks" under God's holy Law, living ONLY by the complete paying power of Christ's shed blood? I know I am!

 

[francisdesales]

Thanks for your response. I can't find anything in the Latin Vulgate or original Greek bibles about "growing in holiness." Here's the Dictionary definition of "Holiness": Adjective:"belonging to or derived from or associated with a divine power."

Could a divine power be only partially holy? :o I don't think so. "Holy" is "an absolute," both biblically and grammatically. The absolute quality of biblical holiness is easily provable from many scriptures. In the OT, if something holy touched something unholy or profane, the unholy/profane thing became instantly and permanently holy:

Well, sure, when speaking about God Himself, or any instrument used in sacred liturgy. There is no disagreement there. But when speaking about men, as I said in my last post, the Scriptures speak about varying degrees of holiness or righteousness...

For example...

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

That presumes that people have different degrees of righteousness - if one can exceed another's...

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear: 1 Peter 1:15-17

Again, varying degrees of holiness expressed by our manner of conversation and every man's work.

He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. Rev 22:11

Here is a call to become even more righteous, more just.

There are a number of other such calls to "make one's election sure" by furthering one's virtue.

Oh, almost forgot, holiness is and MUST BE an internal condition rather than an external status. There is no such thing possible as "a holy status" for a sinner. That would be ridiculous. Holiness by definition always pertains to the NATURE of a thing. Thus it must be an inherent condition. Think about it. :-? Would you rather bless yourself with water that was "considered holy" or water that was actually holy?

Which is why we believe that God internally transforms us, not merely makes us forensically just.

Regards

 

[Catholic Crusader]

......Which is why we believe that God internally transforms us, not merely makes us forensically just.

Regards

This post from another thread seems relevant to what you said francis:

What do you think about looking at in terms of God looking at us through Christ? So that when God sees us through Christ; we appear innocent and holy. That's how this protestant thinks of it. Could you describe the familistic terms a bit more?

You may not realize it, but you are mirroring Martin Luther's thoughts. Its actually a cultural thing. In Germany, farmers stacked piles of dung. They were proud of there piles of dung, and stacked it high to show their wealth. When the snow would cover their dung, it looked pristine - dung underneath, but white as snow on the outside. Luther saw this, and saw the covering of Christ the same: We are still fallen underneath, but God only sees the white covering of Christ over us.

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more......

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello Again Francis!

You wrote: "Which is why we believe that God internally transforms us, not merely makes us forensically just."

My reply: A hearty "AMEN" to that!

Oh, by the way, you quoted Jesus: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20"

Please notice the brackets around "the righteousness" (of the scribes and Pharisees). The brackets indicate words that were not present in the original manuscript but were added by the translators according to their own understanding (or lack thereof).

The original reads: "For I say unto you, that except your relationship with God far exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Here's the link to the original Greek version of Matthew 5:20: http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/ ... ion=KJV#20

To see the translation of any word in this verse, just click on the number just to the left of that word.

Here's the dictionary definition of "righteous": 1: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin 2 a: morally right or justifiable

Can something be "partially righteous?" Again, I don't think so. Biblically, the ONLY righteousness that even exists is God's righteousness:
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Isa 64:6 But we (of ourselves) are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (parentheses are my own).
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So why is it so important that these definitions of "righteous," "holy," "true," and "certain" be absolute? Reason is because anything less than absolute in these definitions would leave room for Man to take some of the credit for his own salvation and regeneration. (which Man loves to do in many subtle ways).

If you check out one of my earlier posts in this topic explaining the parable of the wicked servant, who, after humbly begging his king for mercy, and being forgiven a huge debt by that King, went out and persecuted one of his fellowservants in order to build up his own wounded ego, you will see the principle that many believers accept their salvation with great pain to their pride.

And then, feeling Christ only had to "die a little bit" for them, spend much time and effort thereafter trying to establish their participation in helping the Lord with the job. Hence no necessity to feel so beholden to Jesus. But thank God, at least they do accept their salvation! That's why God's Word tells us to: "Grow in grace." Personally, I would add: "Grow in humility" and then "grow in compassion." The three really go together.

Pax Christi,
"Arph

 

[francisdesales]

Oh, by the way, you quoted Jesus: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20"

Please notice the brackets around "the righteousness" (of the scribes and Pharisees). The brackets indicate words that were not present in the original manuscript but were added by the translators according to their own understanding (or lack thereof).

The original read: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 The scribes and Pharisees had no righteousness of their own at all.

Here's the dictionary definition of "righteous": 1: acting in accord with divine or moral law : free from guilt or sin 2 a: morally right or justifiable

Can something be "partially righteous?" Again, I don't think so. Biblically, the ONLY righteousness that even exists is God's righteousness

You are ignoring the reason why I quote Matthew 5. It shows that men have various levels of righteousness in God's eyes. Christ is not speaking about God's righteousness or His righteousness!

ALL men were not the "apple of God's eye". Another example of this is the parable of the talents. Men are given various gifts to serve God. Such men are rewarded proportionately. There was no absolute "amount" given as a reward. While I agree that God is completely righteous, man's own response determines how MUCH God's righteousness and grace works within us individually. We CAN grieve the Holy Spirit - or not. Thus, our response to God is not the same - and thus, we grow in holiness at different levels. Thus, we are sanctified, just, at different levels in comparison with each other. We each grow in virtue at different levels.

Isa 64:6 But we (of ourselves) are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Who here has said anything about our OWN righteousness without God? God gives us gifts, and we accept them or not. Thus, we have different levels of holiness - which all comes from God. But we ALL do not ACCEPT the gifts equally. This explains our various walks in Christ that are not identical.

So why is it so important that these definitions of "righteous," "holy," "true," and "certain" be absolute? Reason is because anything less than absolute in these definitions would leave room for Man to take some of the credit for his own salvation and regeneration. (which Man loves to do in many subtle ways).

This "either/or" idea totally ignores the concept of "working together" in Scriptures. God does not save us without us or our cooperation.

NONE of us can take credit for our salvation. That we all agree on. However, synergy is a re-occuring theme in Scriptures. God awaits our response to us - blessing us more when we respond, "hiding" His face from us when we don't.

And then, feeling Christ only had to "die a little bit" for them, spend much time and effort thereafter trying to establish their participation in helping the Lord with the job.

I don't see things that way. Christ died "all the way" - but that doesn't mean that His sacrifice is applied to me "all the way". Otherwise, all men would be saved without their desire or knowledge or response, since Christ died for ALL men. EVERYONE. No exceptions.

Clearly, all men are not saved. So what happened?

God awaits our response.

Regards

 

[AVBunyan]

Again with all due respect - until you settle the issue of how the sinner is justified before God this issue of "losing it" can never be settled or will never be settled here even if you went another 24 pages.

God bless

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi again Francis!

Profuse apologies! After you quoted my paragraphs on Jesus telling His disciples that "their righteousness must exceed." etc., I went back and edited those paragraphs according to the original Greek scripture. Here's the "final version":
==================================================================================
Oh, by the way, you quoted Jesus: "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20"

Please notice the brackets around "the righteousness" (of the scribes and Pharisees). The brackets indicate words that were not present in the original manuscript but were added by the translators according to their own understanding (or lack thereof).

The original reads: "For I say unto you, that except your relationship with God far exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Here's the link to the original Greek version of Matthew 5:20: http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/ ... ion=KJV#20

To see the translation of any word in this verse, just click on the number just to the left of that word.
==================================================================================

Also, I don't in any way believe in "automatic salvation." Each person must express faith towards God in some positive way, even if they have never heard the name of Jesus. Just as righteous Abel brought a blood sacrifice to the Lord and was accepted. And Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness. And the Jews in Egypt placed the blood of a lamb over the doors of their dwellings and were passed over by the angel of death. Even Adam and Eve accepted coats made from the skins of slain animals from the hand of God.

Anyway, Mea culpa for what I think is a bit of confusion in semantics. My recent posts in this Salvation topic have focused primarily on the work that the Lord does in the spirit of the believer, which may or may not ever come to full physical fruition. God's spiritual work within the believer is the ONLY basis upon which a believer is permanently accepted into the Body of Christ (the family of God). The Lord accepts only His OWN spiritual work within Man.

A believer's own development of the Lord's inner spiritual work into his everyday life is to the benefit of the believer, but is never a basis for salvation, if it were, the believer could take the credit. Rather, it's a blessing of salvation:
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2Cr 7:1 (KJV): Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
(underline is my own).

2 Corinthians 7:1 (Amplified Bible): THEREFORE, SINCE these [great] promises are ours, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from everything that contaminates and defiles body and spirit, and bring our (inner) consecration to completeness in the [reverential] fear of God.

2 Corinthians 7:1 (Holman Christian Standard Bible: Therefore dear friends, since we have such promises, we should wash ourselves clean from every impurity of the flesh and spirit, making our (inner) sanctification complete in the fear of God.

2 Corinthians 7:1 (Latin Vulgate): Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of the flesh and of the spirit, perfecting sanctification in the fear of God.

(underlines and parentheses are my own).
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"Perfecting sanctification" refers to your mention of a believer's response to that precious "seed" sown within the spirit of every believer. Some bear fruit 30, 60, or 100 fold, depending on their response to God's completed inner spiritual work:
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Luk 13:18-19 Then said he, Unto what is the kingdom of God like? and whereunto shall I resemble it?
19 It is like a grain of mustard seed (God's Word), which a man took, and cast into his garden; and it grew, and waxed a great tree; and the fowls of the air lodged in the branches of it.

Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth [it]; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty. (parentheses are my own).
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But the thing to remember here is that bearing fruit has nothing to do with God's inner work of justification and regeneration within the spirit of a believer. Bearing the fruit of the Spirit is the hoped-for result of God's inner work. But even if a believer only bears fruit thirtyfold or even less, God's inner work remains incorruptible forever. The only sad thing is that an unresponsive believer will not enjoy all the many blessings of a believer who responds to the Lord in full measure.

Enoch and Elijah responded to the Lord at the full "hundredfold level" and their reward was a complete escape from the grave! But as Jesus said: "Narrow is the way that leads to life, and few there be that find it."

1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

THINK BIG!!!

Grace, then peace,
"Arph"
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