This is bit difficult for me to articulate Joe and I'm trying to do it humbly and fairly since Scripture says, "
It is good that you grasp one thing and also not let go of the other; for the one who fears God comes forth with both of them"
(Ecclesiastes 7:18) and that is definitely what I'm attempting to do now. So bear with me here. You wrote:
francis said:
Josh,
I understand what you are saying. However, at what POINT has one "made one's calling and election sure"? Does a meter in heaven peg out, stating Josh has reached "surety" of election? Does a bell go off somewhere? How do you KNOW you have reached that point where you are "sure"? I don't believe this verse states that. Again, by doing what Peter discusses, we are making our election more "certain", since we trust that by doing these things, we are pleasing to God - and God is righteous and will reward us for our obedience.
I understand what you are saying also and your point is valid. I think what I'm trying to say though is that it's not about getting "to the mark" (a "meter") and then saying "Yep I'm here, I've made my election sure" because any of the true elect would inevitably live a life of perseverance and endurance and walk in a fear of God in
constantly pressing toward that mark (like Paul said "not that I have already attained it"), and realize that "it's not over till it's over" so to speak since we must "persevere to the end", but the idea I'm trying to convey is that once you've begun on that path and you
determine for yourself to walk down it and count all things else rubbish (as did Paul), what else is there to turn to? I try to qualify this and elaborate below.
*And also, as a side note, Paul seemed very confident that when he did depart from this life, that we was going to be at home with the Lord (and while still yet alive Paul said "I have fought the good fight" and he knew he was going to continue on it and not turn back), that's the type of assurance I'm talking about.*
God has worked in so many ways in my life that I've determined to (and I automatically do) immediately fall back on God in times of doubt, troubled times, etc., etc. and each time God makes you a little bit stronger, and each time a little less of the world is appealing to you and a little more of God is shown to you. It reminds me of that old hymn that says "then the things of earth will grow strangely dim in the light of His glory and grace". Man I'll tell you what, that's what I'm in it for, I desire to see God's glory - and I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt that right now God
is working in me (and every day) to transform me into the image of His Son, and I would posit that as we become more like Jesus, the more immune (less susceptible) we will be to the world's ways. Now am I saying that we will not stumble and fall? No of course not, and I wouldn't even admit that one could apostacize if I didn't think one could go the other direction as well, but I think that for those that are actively pursuing God and whom God has made
more & more strong and dependent on Him that it will become all that much more easier for God to "keep our foot from stumbling" as Jude tells us and "complete in us that good work" as Paul tells us.
I think it is indeed an issue of our will, but here is the "what if" that I'm proposing here (we already know the "what if" of 'if' you turn away:
apostacy; but now consider...): "what if" you surrender your will to God, by this meaning that you submit it to Him humbly and allow God to work in you? Then, I say,
just as we know that God is faithful to keep His promises so also we can know that when God is in control that He
will keep us from stumbling (As Jude tells us that He so ably can).
Where then is our part in this? To
determine for ourselves (test ourselves, and "make sure") to pursue God, and count all other things as rubbish, and when me make a
solemn determination (and have been walking in it - so as to have seen the fruit of our resolve - and God has made us
stronger in it) there begins to grow
a confidence in you, not a confidence of one's own abilities but in
the might and power of God working in them.
I've experienced and now reject the rubbish and filth of the world and I've seen beauty in God and the indescribable glory of who He is (even if only a glimpse of it) and it has hooked me (as it did Paul). I've come to some points in my life when I've been given a choice to quit and give it up, but I've always run to God in these times and said (like Peter did to Jesus when other disciples fell away -
John 6:66-70), "
Where else could I go?" And I believe that when you train yourself (nay, even long for it) to always fall back on God no matter the circumstance I do believe you can have dealt massive blows to any self-confidence and pride in the flesh (having a humble and contrite spirit), and where there is humbleness of heart God moves mightily. My confidence in God has grown time and time again through trials and I'm beginning to see things that I never want to go back to and already count as loss and rubbish for Christ.
In light of that I have confidence that this will continue, and that God will work in my heart time and time again regardless of the circumstance, and continue to bring me closer to Him. In this I have no doubt or wavering faith about but true confidence, not in my ability, but in God's. Do you see what I am saying?
Agree. Spread the word, brother!
Yes, and the fear of the Lord is the key. And what I've said above about determining ahead of time to pursue God and count all other things rubbish, consider if we determine to do all the things to assure our salvation that the Bible tells us of:
1) Test ourselves to see if we are in the faith
2) Make our election sure
3) Take
heed (be watchful) lest we think we stand in instead fall
4) Remain humble and do not harden our heart
5)
Press toward (persevere) the mark
If we walk in these things I don't see how one could go wrong, if we are constantly
testing, constantly
watching, constantly
pressing on. And on top of all this, for one who is a true child of God (and sometimes even when they are not) God will chase you. God didn't give up on Jonah, he chased Him and got His attention. Yes you can reach a point where after God chases you and you reject him
time after time (the ultimate blasphemy of the Holy Spirit - the unforgivable sin) you will apostacize, but for one who has had God's working in them,
matured (maturity I think is significant when spoken of in Scripture - but you of course have to use discretion to know whether you really
are mature in the faith or not), and then on top of that will have God chase you and chastize you for your benefit if you start straying - I then believe it will get such a Christian back on track
real quick when they have no illusions about God and have a true fear of Him. And notice that in the context of Hebrews 6:4-6 that the ones Paul (whom I believe wrote it) was talking to aught to have already been teachers, etc. in other words they weren't constantly pressing, pursuing, seeking, growing, maturing, but were rather still almost as infants and immature. I think there's something about the Christian who is as of yet still immature where the those warnings are of especial urgency, and find it less and less likely that as you walk with God and mature (which entails walking in the fear of the Lord and everything else I've qualified it with) that you will fall away. That's how I see it any way.
Your thoughts?
God Bless,
~Josh
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