Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Vic C.]

CC, I have been rethinking "Free Will" lately. 8-)

I would like to hear more about that.

in Christ,

Bob

Nothing to really talk about Bob. Just reevaluating some old beliefs. Bubba was close.... very close. 8-)

 

[francisdesales]

!

Francisdesales,
I have never considered the RCC response in regards to the lost not having a chance to say yes to Jesus. It begs the question though; are those in Burma and China better off then those countries where the Gospel is prevalent? My Christian knowledge base until late has been Reform theology (still is in regards to the sovereignty of God). I know that within Reform circles, the idea is that all people deserve eternal punishment, because of the doctrine of Total Depravity and “Original Sinâ€Â. This has been the way to rationalize the belief in eternal punishment, when compared to the complete holiness of God.
Bubba

Since we are not talking about "UR", I'll continue... ;-)

First, what is one of the reasons Jesus came?

To bring us into a relationship with God through Jesus...

This relationship, Jesus calls "life". It is HIMSELF that He gives, the way, the truth, and THE LIFE. He mediates this relationship, because NO ONE can "see" the Father - except through the Son.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 5:24

Not after we die - right now!

Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life. John 5:39-40

NOW!

For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world John 6:33

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. John 5:35

Come to Jesus NOW. No need to wait for Him to slake our thirst for God...

I am that bread of life John 6:48

to get quickly to the point...

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

And again...

And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life 1 John 5:11-12

Eternal life is not some bus ticket, nor something that we will experience only in heaven, it is a relationship that begins EVEN NOW! God is eternal and God is life. Eternal life is experiencing our Lord and Savior, even TODAY, though more fully in heaven. IT IS A RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD! One that frees us from the slavery of sin. Remember, sin separates us from our relationship with God. Christ came to change that, to enable men to call upon God and begin to share in the divine nature, eternal life, even now. The Beatitudes express the results of this eternal life that begins in the here and now.

Is Jesus ONLY available to Christians? Not necessarily...

And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him 1 John 4:16

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Romans 2:12-14

But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Romans 2:29

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Heb 11:6

It is certainly not inconceivable that the pagan will seek after God, moved by the "law" within their hearts written there by God Himself. While they may not have been illuminated as we have, they, too, have the potential to be called by God. Perhaps they do not KNOW Jesus of Nazareth, but they know that God is love, follow their conscience, love their neighbor, etc., and are INDEED following the Law of Christ. They are not rejecting Him as such.

Naturally, we want to evangelize these people, to allow them to live life to the fullest even NOW, but God does not slam the door of heaven on the ignorant that the Church cannot reach out to...

Regards

 

[Bubba]

The moment an individual believes:

Regenerated - given new life; “having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth. “(1 Pet 1:23)

Converted - turned around; “Repent ye therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that so there may come seasons of refreshing from the presence of the Lord†(Acts 3:19)

Redeemed - purchased or bought back; †knowing that ye were redeemed, not with corruptible things, with silver or gold, from your vain manner of life handed down from your fathers; 19but with precious blood, as of a lamb without spot, even the blood of Christ†(1 Pet 1:18-19)

Reconciled - made at peace; “to wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not reckoning unto them their trespasses, and having committed unto us the word of reconciliation.†(2 Cor 5:19)

Sanctified - set apart for God; “unto the church of God which is at Corinth, even them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, their Lord and ours†(1 Cor. 1:2)

Adopted - placed in God’s family as a son; “For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father†(Rom 8:15).

Justified - declared righteous by God; “We reckon therefore that a man is justified by faith apart from the works of the law†(Rom 3:28). “Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.†(2 Cor. 5:21).

Sealed- kept by God’s power; “in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,-- in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise†(Eph. 1:13) and “Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or anguish, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?...37Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall e able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord†(Romans 8:35-39).

Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The moment an individual believes......

James 2:19 - "Even the demons believe, and tremble"

 

[Arphaxad]

Hello Francisdesales!

Your most recent post in this topic started with: "To bring us into a relationship with God through Jesus..." (end quote).

Re: That entire post, I Just wanted to say: GREAT POST! Very enlightened and thoughtful!

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (but not exclusively) of those that believe. (underline and parentheses are my own).

Best Blessings,
Arph

 

[Bubba]

The moment an individual believes......

James 2:19 - "Even the demons believe, and tremble"

Ephesians 1:4-14, “For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillmentâ€â€to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ. 11In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of his glory. 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possessionâ€â€to the praise of his glory.â€Â

CC,
Yes, the Demons believe and tremble; we believe because He has lavished us with His love and brought us into relationship as His sons and daughters.
Grace, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Hello Francisdesales!

Your most recent post in this topic started with: "To bring us into a relationship with God through Jesus..." (end quote).

Re: That entire post, I Just wanted to say: GREAT POST! Very enlightened and thoughtful!

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (but not exclusively) of those that believe. (underline and parentheses are my own).

Best Blessings,
Arph

Arph,
1Timothy 4:10 is an amazing verse and coupled with 1John 2:2, all sorts of possibilities arise.
Bubba

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Bubba!

You're bringing out some very good accurate points in your posts! But I'm getting more and more disappointed with some of these "modern translations." :
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1 Cor. 5::21 “Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.â€Â
True or false? False (should be: "be made").

1 John 2:2 “and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.â€Â
True or false? True.

(Here's the King James):
2Cr 5:21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

(Here's the Latin Vulgate [RCC]):
2Cr 5:21 Him, who knew no sin, he hath made sin for us: that we might be made the justice of God in him. (underlines, parentheses, bolding and color emphases are my own).
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So, even though some might consider it a small difference: "Become the righteousness of God" is quite a big difference from "be made the righteousness of God." To me: "become the righteousness of God" sounds like US possibly making OURSELVES righteous, while: "be made the righteousness of God" sounds like GOD making us righteous. To me that's a HUGE difference! GOD makes us righteous, not ourselves. If we could make or keep ourselves righteous, then we wouldn't need Christ! - True!

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Arphaxad]

Hi again Bubba!

Here are some verses that show the "always was" time frame for the available salvation and new birth of all men:
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Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him (the imaginary Beast), whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Col 1:26-27 [Even] the mystery (the New Birth) which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what [is] the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

(underlines, parentheses and bolding are my own).
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So even all the believers in the Old Testament were born again with the spirit of Christ in them. They just didn't know the name of "Jesus" yet because it was still concealed. Enoch and Elijah and righteous Abel were REAL good examples of born-again Old Testament saints with "Christ in them."

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------

 

[Bubba]

So even all the believers in the Old Testament were born again with the spirit of Christ in them. They just didn't know the name of "Jesus" yet because it was still concealed. Enoch and Elijah and righteous Abel were REAL good examples of born-again Old Testament saints with "Christ in them."

Best Blessings,
"Arph"

-----------[/size][/quote]

Hi Arph,
It has always been a heart thing in regards to God's true followers, " Romans 2:28-29)For he is not a Jew who is [so] outwardly, neither [is] circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
29but a Jew [is] he who is [so] inwardly, and circumcision [is] of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God. (Youngs literal translation). Then there is Ezek. 36:22-28 that will totally blow your mind away as our Father creates more sons and daughters as heirs of the Kingdom built without hands.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi again, again Bubba!

Thanks for mentioning Ezekiel 36! I hadn't ever read it that carefully. I believe it says a whole lot about the Lord's plan for our present day. Here are a couple verses from Ezekiel 36 that also show more about what salvation actually is, an inner work, not just a change of external status.

I sure don't know how believers think they can undo God's work in their spirit. I guess they think they can get "unborn again." Some things in this life are "one-time permanent," like a baby being born, or a believer being born again by God:
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Eze 36:26-27 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].
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I guess I might have an advantage over some in understanding just how powerful the Lord's work is. The reason is because I've seen it in His merciful physical healing of people many times. The best example I can think of at the moment is an older neighbor lady who lived three houses down from us in the Detroit area for nineteen years. This dear lady had suffered from incurable Bell's Palsy for 15 years, causing one side of her face to droop VERY noticeably. Doctors said her condition was permanent and incurable.

One day my wife prayed over her for God's mercy, and within a few days the facial droop completely disappeared. And to the best of our knowledge has never returned. After the Lord healed her, we lived in that home about another 5 years and saw her frequently. And at least during that 5 years her face remained perfect. After that we moved away and unfortunately lost contact with her.

So I submit that the Lord is big enough to get the job done. But please remember, the Lord will never force salvation on us, we do have to ask, or at least not fight the Lord's offer. A physical healing from the Lord will obviously last only as long as a person lives. But when the Lord does the work of salvation in our spirit, it's done forever:
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Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth [it], that [men] should fear before him.
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Best Blessings,
"Arph"
-----------

 

[francisdesales]

Hello Francisdesales!

Your most recent post in this topic started with: "To bring us into a relationship with God through Jesus..." (end quote).

Re: That entire post, I Just wanted to say: GREAT POST! Very enlightened and thoughtful!

1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially (but not exclusively) of those that believe. (underline and parentheses are my own).

Best Blessings,
Arph

Arphaxad,

Thanks for your comments. It is good we agree on such an instrumental part of the Faith once given by the Apostles. More than enough people cannot see this.

Yes, God desires ALL men to be saved. It is too bad that all men do not desire this, as well.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

So, even though some might consider it a small difference: "Become the righteousness of God" is quite a big difference from "be made the righteousness of God." To me: "become the righteousness of God" sounds like US possibly making OURSELVES righteous, while: "be made the righteousness of God" sounds like GOD making us righteous. To me that's a HUGE difference! GOD makes us righteous, not ourselves. If we could make or keep ourselves righteous, then we wouldn't need Christ! - True!

Yes, God makes us righteous. That is something we need to remember. God doesn't "fake it".

We REALLY ARE MADE righteous because of the Spirit's work within us.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

I've got an interesting question:

Can ANY of us TRULY consider ourselves 'Christians' BEFORE it's OVER. Before this life is ENDED, can ANY of us TRULY KNOW that we ARE what we PROFESS to BE?

MEC

 

[Catholic Crusader]

I've got an interesting question:

Can ANY of us TRULY consider ourselves 'Christians' BEFORE it's OVER. Before this life is ENDED, can ANY of us TRULY KNOW that we ARE what we PROFESS to BE?

MEC

I can

 

[gila]

Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

No, but who is the judge who is a true one or not? Jesus, no one else.

 

[Catholic Crusader]

"See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21).

This verse includes an important condition: "provided you remain in his kindness." It is saying that Christians can lose their salvation by throwing it away. He warns, "Whoever thinks he is standing secure should take care not to fall" (1 Cor. 10:11-12). , Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27). Paul here points out that even he cannot be sure of his own present state or of his future salvation.

 

[Imagican]

Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

No, but who is the judge who is a true one or not? Jesus, no one else.

AH, a WISE and understanding answer.

While I have encountered MANY that would PROFESS a KNOWLEDGE of their FATE, the Bible offers a BIT of a 'different' understanding.

IF we ARE to 'run' the race like we MEAN to WIN IT, then ISN'T this a perfect offering that those that LOOSE will receive 'something LESS' than what has been offered? And this BEING the case, would those that end up LOOSING the race not THINK like others in that they WERE INDEED 'saved'?

We ARE to HAVE faith in the promises offered. But we MUST take into consideration that the promises make ARE CONTINGIENT on certain 'truths'. NOT ONE single thought or idea. So, no matter HOW much 'positive thinking' we are able to MUSTER, if that is NOT coupled with the 'conditions' of Salvation, it is NO different than believing one can FLY. Keep 'thinking' that and one day you will find out that it was JUST A DREAM.

For we also have contained within that Word that one day there WILL be MANY that will offer these words to Christ: "Look at all the wonderous things that we've done in YOUR name". And we have HIS words that: "Go away from me, for I know NOT who you are''. Not only an offering that their DEEDS were based on 'false presumptions or intentions, but that Christ DOES NOT EVEN KNOW THEM.

So, here we HAVE a 'perfect example' of those that THOUGHT that they were DOING what it TOOK to GAIN their Salvation. And from the offerings that they made it is OBVIOUS that they THOUGHT that they WERE 'good Chrirstians'. But the truth being revealed is that their HEARTS WERE FAR FROM CHRIST. Believing did NOT offer them what they EXPECTED.

So, we find that 'positive thinking' offers NO assurance of ANYTHING other than a 'personal PEACE' or possibly even a 'false sense of security'. Likened to this simple statement: "fooling themselves''.

So, back to the topic; HOW do we determine WHO the 'Christians' ARE? For to answer this question REQUIRES that we DEFINE 'Christian' to begin with. And NO AMOUNT of 'talk' is able to PRODUCE one SPECK of surity on such an issue.

This is the PURPOSE of the question: Do ANY of us TRULY KNOW 'anything' concerning our FATE? While we can CERTAINLY convince ourselves to BELIEVE, does THIS offer ANY sureity whatsoever concerning TRUTH? CAN we KNOW that we ARE Saved UNTIL 'judgement'? If SO, then what's the PURPOSE of Judgement. For even those that are LOST, when confronted with TRUTH that CANNOT be denied, EVEN THESE would KNOW their STATE immediately upon an UNDERSTANDING of the TRUTH.

Fear and trembling my friends. And there can BE NO fear and trembling in the minds of those that are ABLE to 'convince themselves' that they have ALREADY obrained that which is offered.

MEC

 

[Arphaxad]

Hi Catholic Crusader!

You quoted: "See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness, otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22-23; Matt. 18:21-35, 1 Cor. 15:1-2, 2 Pet. 2:20-21)." (end quote).

So exactly what does "cut off" actually mean? Salvation has BOTH eternal AND temporal benefits. Most believers have absolutely no idea of the difference between the two. Example: "cut off" could mean "cut off from the peace salvation is supposed to bring." Or: "Cut off from your confidence in God." Or: "cut off from all the temporal blessings of salvation." So which is it?:
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Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (underline is my own).
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Here a are just a few of the temporal blessings of salvation:
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Psa 1:1-3 Blessed [is] the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight [is] in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Psa 3:5-8I laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD sustained me.
6 I will not be afraid of ten thousands of people, that have set [themselves] against me round about.
7 Arise, O LORD; save me, O my God: for thou hast smitten all mine enemies [upon] the cheek bone; thou hast broken the teeth of the ungodly.
8 Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.


Psa 4:7-8 Thou hast put gladness in my heart, more than in the time [that] their corn and their wine increased.
8 I will both lay me down in peace, and sleep: for thou, LORD, only makest me dwell in safety.


Psa 5:12 For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as [with] a shield.

Pro 8:12-21 I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
13 The fear of the LORD [is] to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
14 Counsel [is] mine, and sound wisdom: I [am] understanding; I have strength.
15 By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles, [even] all the judges of the earth.
17 I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

18 Riches and honour [are] with me; [yea], durable riches and righteousness.

19 My fruit [is] better than gold, yea, than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

20 I lead in the way of righteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:
21 That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I will fill their treasures.

(underlines are my own).
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Why do you assume that everything in the bible is only referring to the eternal, when there is obviously so MUCH promised about the Lord's TEMPORAL blessings to those who trust in the Lord and walk in His way? I could easily fill 15 more pages with all the temporal blessings the Lord promises to those who trust in His mercy. Psalms and Proverbs would be just the beginning!

I strongly believe Christians desperately need a balanced perspective on the precious life the Lord has given them in the "here and now" as well as on that which is to come! We Christians are supposed to be the envy of the entire world, especially of the Jewish people. So let's get started! We can't do it by telling them about something that hasn't happened yet. Talk is cheap! :o :
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Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they (the Jews) stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them (the Jews) to jealousy.

Rom 11:13-14 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation (envy) [them which are] my flesh (the Jews), and might save some of them. (underlines and parentheses are my own).
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Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Bubba]

Arph,
I am “catching your driftâ€Â, often with judgment passages we are thinking of the distance future, but more often then not it is the “here and now†or the immediate future that the verse is talking about. I believe many of the Gehenna verses that Jesus spoke of were in regards to the emanate fall of Jerusalem where many of “this generation†would experience. Hebrews 12:4-8, speaks of judgment in the here and now as God’s chastisement to the elect.

“Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin: 5and ye have forgotten the exhortation which reasoneth with you as with sons,
My son, regard not lightly the chastening of the Lord,
Nor faint when thou art reproved of him;
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth,
And scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7It is for chastening that ye endure; God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father chasteneth not? 8But if ye are without chastening, whereof all have been made partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.â€Â

Who is to say that judgment is not “a cutting off†for a time? Yet, with this verse from Micah and a quote from Chrysostom we know that what ever refinement through judgment that we must endure, it only for a season.

Micah 7:18-19:
“Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth over the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in lovingkindness. 19He will again have compassion upon us; he will tread our iniquities under foot; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.â€Â


"Mercy is dear to God, and intercedes for the sinner, and breaks his chains, and dissipates the darkness, and quenches the fire of hell, and destroys the worm, and rescues from the gnashing of teeth. To her the gates of heaven are opened. She is the queen of virtues, and makes man like to God, for it is written, 'Be ye merciful, as your Father which is in heaven is merciful.' She has silver wings, like the dove, and feathers of gold, and soars aloft, and is clothed with the divine glory, and stands by the throne of God; when we are in danger of being condemned she rises up and pleads for us, and covers us with her defence, and folds us in her wings. God loves mercy more than sacrifice." St. Chrysostom
Grace Bubba