Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Arphaxad]

Hello Rick!

Let's face it, Taking a HUGE free gift of salvation from the Lord without contributing our own efforts or paying something in return is not easy for everybody, ESPECIALLY when that gift of salvation is paid for by the death of another person. Here's a parable to illustrate the point. If we could give it a title I think it should be: "The tale of the wounded ego.":
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Mat 18:23-35 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and "children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe at least ONE of the points of this parable is that coming to "the King" for forgiveness of a HUGE, unpayable debt takes a lot of humility, which not everybody has. Hence, for some, a lot of humiliation, anger and a severely wounded ego is generated in the process. All through the history of Man "the remedy" for a severely wounded ego has been to humiliate another person or persons.

Of course we know this does definitely not accomplish the desired effect, which is what I believe Jesus is pointing out in this parable. The wicked servant who tried to salve his wounded ego by humiliating his fellowservant, ended up far worse off than if he had just thanked the King profusely for the tremendous blessing he had received and passed the same kindness on to others.

So some receive their salvation very humbly and thankfully, like the woman who washed Jesus' feet with her own hair and tears, while others receive it painfully, having to realize that they have not followed in the footsteps of Jesus as they always thought they did. The latter always mention their supposedly difficult but unclear requirements for obtaining and/or keeping salvation.

This lack of clarity provides ample opportunity for them to apply their own vague "salvation requirements" to the lives of others to bring out supposed salvation disqualifications, while at the same time using their same vague "salvation requirements" to exalt and glorify their own supposedly virtuous salvation qualifications.

Thus by totally ignoring God's clearly written simple promises for receiving God's miraculous salvation, the temptation arises to deceive themselves into feeling more righteous and deserving than all the other supposedly "doubtful" believers. Hence also the potential to falsely feel more certain of their own salvation and less beholden to God. But, as in the parable above, it doesn't work! :

if those who have "painfully" received their salvation would ever use GOD'S standard for righteousness they would immediately discover the total uselessness of their "salvation-keeping efforts." But they usually use their own "standard" in deluding themselves to falsely believe they are walking so righteously that their walk is somehow allowing the Lord to preserve their salvation, thus they "helped" a lot and don't owe so much to the Lord after all!

However, I in no way disrespect godly living. It's just that it doesn't affect God's miraculous work of justifying and sanctifying you. If you live godly it benefits YOU, not God:
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1Ti 6:6 But godliness with contentment is great gain.

1Ti 4:8 For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come. (underline and bolding are my own).
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Dear Lord, under your laws of holiness we're ALL "dead ducks." Thanks for saving and spiritually resurrecting us believers alive and holy unto you.

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
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[Arphaxad]

Hi Everybody!

Just a short note on the "fruits" of being a new creature in Christ: "Eagles never naturally wallow in the mud and pigs will surely never fly!"

Best Blessings,
"Arph"
------------

 

[francisdesales]

Catholic Crusader,
Who is it that will "persevere", "remain", "qualify", "overcome" and etc? Those who believe are
the ones who overcome the worlds (1John 5:4-5) temptation, by the Holy Spirit. If the individual does not demonstrate fruit in their lives, they must decide if they are truly saved (2 Cor. 13:5).

Bubba,

I think God will decide whether we are "truly saved". That is the meaning of "judgment". In the end, we rely on God's mercy for salvation, not whether we have accumulated enough good works, demonstrated fruits, etc...

Your thoughts?

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Ithink God will decide whether we are "truly saved". That is the meaning of "judgment". In the end, we rely on God's mercy for salvation, not whether we have accumulated enough good works, demonstrated fruits, etc...

Your thoughts?

Regards

Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."[/quote]
My thoughts are that God knows who are His in this realm and these will have fruit in their lives, according to this verse. In judgment I believe what the Father will see is Christ in me. He is my covering. Yet, I agree that we must totally rely on God's mercy for salvation.
Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

These kinds of threads make me ever so sure that the Bible Alone - Sola Scriptura - is a false doctrine. Everyone coming up with different takes, different intepretations, competing doctrines... ..that is not how Christ meant it to be. That is why He established a teaching Church, with authority.

MAN 'o MAN I'm glad I'm a Catholic.

 

[Arphaxad]

Hey CC!

Problem is that, apart from a few basic concepts, most members of ANY denomination have absolutely no idea of the in-depth theology of their church.

My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox folks have the best "grasp" on the in-depth theology of their church.

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
--------------

 

[gila]

Hi,

Can true Christians lose their salvation?

This question seems so simple yet christians argue about it over and over. Jesus tells us to be faithful to Him until the end in the book of Revelation. He also indicaties what we will be blotted out from the book of life.

If we don't strive to be faithful to His teachings until the end, I dont think we will inherit the kingdom of God, according what Jesus says.

 

[Bubba]

These kinds of threads make me ever so sure that the Bible Alone - Sola Scriptura - is a false doctrine. Everyone coming up with different takes, different intepretations, competing doctrines... ..that is not how Christ meant it to be. That is why He established a teaching Church, with authority.

MAN 'o MAN I'm glad I'm a Catholic.

Much of Scripture is paradoxical, where the problem lies, is when we try and dismiss those verses which do not agree with our preconceived notions. God is sovereign, man is responsible, it is not one or the other but both. I do not need a religious organization or a spiritual guru; I need the Scriptures, the Holy Spirit and fellow believers to bounce thoughts off of.
Bubba

 

[francisdesales]

Eph. 2:10 "For we are his workmanship,created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them."

My thoughts are that God knows who are His in this realm and these will have fruit in their lives, according to this verse. In judgment I believe what the Father will see is Christ in me. He is my covering. Yet, I agree that we must totally rely on God's mercy for salvation.

I think we all bear fruit in our lives at one point or another, if we sit back and examine ourselves. There must some point where God says "you have not sufficiently born fruits" - thus, the idea of judgment - since judgment is based upon our deeds, according to Scriptures.

Does not a person who was a grand Christian at one point in their life (but now has become atheist, for example) born fruit at ONE point?

The question becomes "how MUCH of Christ" is seen in a person?

The concept of "Jesus covering me" is an interesting concept, but there is precious little support for that idea. In the end, we will be judged, not Jesus. EVERY person baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ does not REMAIN that way - people fall away, as various Scriptures point out.

I believe it is important to distinguish between Paul's ideal expectation, and the practical reality. He often speaks as if he expects people to be perfect and beyond fall - and then turns around and exhorts people NOT to fall! To me, he is often walking this line between expectation and current reality.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Hey CC!

Problem is that, apart from a few basic concepts, most members of ANY denomination have absolutely no idea of the in-depth theology of their church.

My impression is that the Eastern Orthodox folks have the best "grasp" on the in-depth theology of their church.

Sinning is thinning,
"Arph"
--------------

Hmm.

Probably some truth to that, as I have spoken with a number of Eastern Orthodox gentlemen.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Francisdesales wrote:

The concept of "Jesus covering me" is an interesting concept, but there is precious little support for that idea. In the end, we will be judged, not Jesus. EVERY person baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ does not REMAIN that way - people fall away, as various Scriptures point out.

Christ being our covering may seem nebulous to some, but these verses if answered true would support my premise:
1 Cor. 5::21 “Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.â€Â
True or false?

1 John 2:2 “and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.â€Â
True or false?

1 Timothy 2:3-6 “This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 who would have all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony to be borne in its own timesâ€Â
True or False?

Hebrews 2:9 “But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man.â€Â
True or false?

Bubba

 

[Catholic Crusader]

The concept of "Jesus covering me" is an interesting concept, but there is precious little support for that idea. In the end, we will be judged, not Jesus. EVERY person baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ does not REMAIN that way - people fall away, as various Scriptures point out.

Christ being our covering may seem nebulous to some.....

I posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant here:

What do you think about looking at in terms of God looking at us through Christ? So that when God sees us through Christ; we appear innocent and holy. That's how this protestant thinks of it. Could you describe the familistic terms a bit more?

You may not realize it, but you are mirroring Martin Luther's thoughts. Its actually a cultural thing. In Germany, farmers stacked piles of dung. They were proud of there piles of dung, and stacked it high to show their wealth. When the snow would cover their dung, it looked pristine - dung underneath, but white as snow on the outside. Luther saw this, and saw the covering of Christ the same: We are still fallen underneath, but God only sees the white covering of Christ over us.

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.......

 

[francisdesales]

Christ being our covering may seem nebulous to some, but these verses if answered true would support my premise:
1 Cor. 5::21 “Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.â€Â
True or false?

1 John 2:2 “and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.â€Â
True or false?

Rather than cover each Scripture, I'll cover them all at once, since they are similar and based upon a mistaken interpretation...

What did Christ's death actually do that allowed the Father to provide salvation to humans? Did Christ take to Himself ALL sin and guilt of mankind and suffer the specific punishments for that sin and guilt? Protestants would have us believe "yes". However, the answer is "no"...

The punishment for sin is physical death - and ultimately, eternal damnation. Obviously, Christ did not undergo eternal damnation, and that is available to mankind STILL. If Christ suffered the results of ALL sin, He would be in Hell right now for our sake... Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ suffered the eternal punishment of hell for sin. If Christ had paid the eternal consequence for everyone's sin, God would have no recourse to punish ANYONE because the sin would have been adjudicated by Christ's presence in Hell.

Thus, we must contend that Christ did NOT take upon Himself the ENTIRE punishment required of man for sin. Scriptures teach only that Christ became a "propitiation", a "sin offering", a "sacrifice" for sins (Eph 5:2; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:28, your 1 John quote above). Notice, again, as 1 John 2:2 says, FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Now, do you believe hell has closed its doors to all mankind?

Here is the explanation, my brother. Because Christ was guiltless and sin-free, He could offer Himself as a means of "persuading" or "interceding" to God to relent of His wrath against the sins of mankind. God is a passionate God, who becomes angry when man destroys His creation. Sin does just that. It is a personal offense against God. That is a major theme of the Old Testament. God is not some unemotional and impassionate Being who doesn't really care for His creation. He needs to be personally appeased in order to offer forgiveness. The only thing that can offer this appeasement is a perfect sacrifice, a sinless representative of mankind - Jesus Christ. A great satisfaction is necessary because God is great and Holy. Isaiah 53 states this very well:

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Is 53:10-12

Christ obtains favor from God so that He can approach and ask for MERCY and FORGIVENESS for the sake of sinful men. God is not REQUIRED to offer forgiveness, but Christ's pleading and appeals to the Father's love and longsuffering brings mercy for us. Thus, Christ intercedes even NOW for us as we CONTINUE to offend the Father. We see this appeasement motiff throughout the Old Testament, and Christ fulfills it with His propitiation. But again, as we refer to 1 John 2:1, we see Christ did so for the ENTIRE WORLD. And yet, the entire world is not saved...

Thus, we must understand that there is another "force' that determines the individual's salvation. While the propitiation is global, it is only applied to individuals who repent of their personal sins and SHOW THEMSELVES TO BE FAITHFUL TO GOD, A FAITHFULNESS GOD JUDGES FROM HIS GRACE. Man must respond to God!!!

One of the favorite sections of the Bible for Protestants points out this truth...

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:23-25

In the words of Jesus Himself (who never said He would "cover us" with His righteousness)

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Our righteousness is based upon faith, a free gift given to us. But Christ "covering us" does injustice to the Scriptures, since it does not take into account the response that God demands from us.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

The concept of "Jesus covering me" is an interesting concept, but there is precious little support for that idea. In the end, we will be judged, not Jesus. EVERY person baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ does not REMAIN that way - people fall away, as various Scriptures point out.

Christ being our covering may seem nebulous to some.....

I posted this in another thread, but it seems relevant here:

[quote="Catholic Crusader":7cfc1]

What do you think about looking at in terms of God looking at us through Christ? So that when God sees us through Christ; we appear innocent and holy. That's how this protestant thinks of it. Could you describe the familistic terms a bit more?

You may not realize it, but you are mirroring Martin Luther's thoughts. Its actually a cultural thing. In Germany, farmers stacked piles of dung. They were proud of there piles of dung, and stacked it high to show their wealth. When the snow would cover their dung, it looked pristine - dung underneath, but white as snow on the outside. Luther saw this, and saw the covering of Christ the same: We are still fallen underneath, but God only sees the white covering of Christ over us.

We do not agree. We believe that, through baptism, we are actually transformed. We are not just covered in Christ, but are rather made new creatures, in a state of grace, in a right relationship with God. This view has a ripple effect through many of our teachings, like mortal sin seperating us from God, and this matter of Justification, and more.......

[/quote:7cfc1]

Yes, we are a new creature in Christ when the Holy Spirit takes up residence in ones life. Yet, as Luther said in regards to Romans chapter 6, we are nonetheless, “simultaneously saints as well as sinnersâ€Â, in judgment we are no different as our deeds are examined. As Luther also said, “our very best deeds are sullied with sinsâ€Â, that why we need a Savior as our covering in the presence of complete Holiness and Purity.
Bubba

 

[Bubba]

Christ being our covering may seem nebulous to some, but these verses if answered true would support my premise:
1 Cor. 5::21 “Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.â€Â
True or false?

1 John 2:2 “and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.â€Â
True or false?

Rather than cover each Scripture, I'll cover them all at once, since they are similar and based upon a mistaken interpretation...

What did Christ's death actually do that allowed the Father to provide salvation to humans? Did Christ take to Himself ALL sin and guilt of mankind and suffer the specific punishments for that sin and guilt? Protestants would have us believe "yes". However, the answer is "no"...

The punishment for sin is physical death - and ultimately, eternal damnation. Obviously, Christ did not undergo eternal damnation, and that is available to mankind STILL. If Christ suffered the results of ALL sin, He would be in Hell right now for our sake... Nowhere does the Bible say that Christ suffered the eternal punishment of hell for sin. If Christ had paid the eternal consequence for everyone's sin, God would have no recourse to punish ANYONE because the sin would have been adjudicated by Christ's presence in Hell.

Thus, we must contend that Christ did NOT take upon Himself the ENTIRE punishment required of man for sin. Scriptures teach only that Christ became a "propitiation", a "sin offering", a "sacrifice" for sins (Eph 5:2; Heb 7:27; Heb 9:28, your 1 John quote above). Notice, again, as 1 John 2:2 says, FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Now, do you believe hell has closed its doors to all mankind?

Here is the explanation, my brother. Because Christ was guiltless and sin-free, He could offer Himself as a means of "persuading" or "interceding" to God to relent of His wrath against the sins of mankind. God is a passionate God, who becomes angry when man destroys His creation. Sin does just that. It is a personal offense against God. That is a major theme of the Old Testament. God is not some unemotional and impassionate Being who doesn't really care for His creation. He needs to be personally appeased in order to offer forgiveness. The only thing that can offer this appeasement is a perfect sacrifice, a sinless representative of mankind - Jesus Christ. A great satisfaction is necessary because God is great and Holy. Isaiah 53 states this very well:

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him [a portion] with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Is 53:10-12

Christ obtains favor from God so that He can approach and ask for MERCY and FORGIVENESS for the sake of sinful men. God is not REQUIRED to offer forgiveness, but Christ's pleading and appeals to the Father's love and longsuffering brings mercy for us. Thus, Christ intercedes even NOW for us as we CONTINUE to offend the Father. We see this appeasement motiff throughout the Old Testament, and Christ fulfills it with His propitiation. But again, as we refer to 1 John 2:1, we see Christ did so for the ENTIRE WORLD. And yet, the entire world is not saved...

Thus, we must understand that there is another "force' that determines the individual's salvation. While the propitiation is global, it is only applied to individuals who repent of their personal sins and SHOW THEMSELVES TO BE FAITHFUL TO GOD, A FAITHFULNESS GOD JUDGES FROM HIS GRACE. Man must respond to God!!!

One of the favorite sections of the Bible for Protestants points out this truth...

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:23-25

In the words of Jesus Himself (who never said He would "cover us" with His righteousness)

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed [the righteousness] of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20

Our righteousness is based upon faith, a free gift given to us. But Christ "covering us" does injustice to the Scriptures, since it does not take into account the response that God demands from us.

Regards

"God's mercy does not expire when you doâ€Â
All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet.
He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not.
For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?
â€â€Clement of Alexandria


Francisdesales,
You do make a good argument for your position, but be careful and not assume you understand my theology as strictly from a Reformation foundation. These days I do believe that Jesus is a propitiation for sins, and not just for the elect, but for the whole world. I do not believe in eternal punishment, nor did much of the Church prior to St. Augustine, but because of restraints placed at this forum, we can’t freely talk, unless by PM. The cross of our Savior covers more then we ever dreamed, according to my take on Scripture.
Blessings, Bubba

 

[BobRyan]

These kinds of threads make me ever so sure that the Bible Alone - Sola Scriptura - is a false doctrine. Everyone coming up with different takes, different intepretations, competing doctrines... ..that is not how Christ meant it to be. That is why He established a teaching Church, with authority.

MAN 'o MAN I'm glad I'm a Catholic.

Problem with that is that the "protesting Catholics" demonstrated that the RCC had gone into error.

Now we have many denominations -- man magesteriums. If we all just blindly listen to our own Magesterium to tell us what to think -- as you appear to suggest -- there is even less chance of common ground agreement.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Vic C.]

Bubba, that restraint doesn't apply to the Debate Forum. Did you get the staff's PM regarding this?

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Romans 3:23-25

In the words of Jesus Himself (who never said He would "cover us" with His righteousness)

Joe, I think I know you well enough and I believe that you are not calling Paul a liar, but it it does come across that way. Sorry.

Jesus said this, which is in concordance to Paul:

Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

What happened at the Cross was SO profound, that to this day, man is scratching his head, trying to figure out where he fits in God's redemptive plan. Now I don't believe all that Bubba believes, but it is God's redemptive plan, not man's co redemptive plan with God. I believe in the end, despite whether we've sinned post salvation or tried to work for our salvation, it is He who will choose who is saved and who isn't. I do have a suspicion that we all may be quite surprised at the outcome. I'm sure He has something in store for the apostate, but He may see that apostasy in a much different light than we do.

One more thing:

Who believes Hebrews 10 has a lot to say about this issue? I do. I believe it tells us Jesus' death was one shot deal and sufficient for all sin of those who had/have Faith. He was offered up only once as a sacrifice and suffered only once. Once is enough

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;!

 

[stovebolts]

Bubba,

Please check you inbox.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
You do make a good argument for your position, but be careful and not assume you understand my theology as strictly from a Reformation foundation. These days I do believe that Jesus is a propitiation for sins, and not just for the elect, but for the whole world. I do not believe in eternal punishment, nor did much of the Church prior to St. Augustine, but because of restraints placed at this forum, we can’t freely talk, unless by PM. The cross of our Savior covers more then we ever dreamed, according to my take on Scripture.
Blessings, Bubba

First, I apologize for assuming your theology is strictly from a Reformation foundation. I am at a disadvantage when I first begin such conversations, as the Catholic position can be located quite easily, while individual positions are not known by me until you advance them...

So if I understand you correct, you do not believe in eternal punishment for sin - drawing on support from "the Church prior to St. Augustine"? While Origen did put forward such a teaching, that was not accepted by the universal Church. He was in the minority.

Rather than make an extensive post that shows the various Fathers' stance, here is a two paragraph quote on the existence of hell from the Catholic Encyclopedia...

The existence of hell is proved first of all from the Bible. Wherever Christ and the Apostles speak of hell they presuppose the knowledge of its existence (Matthew 5:29; 8:12; 10:28; 13:42; 25:41, 46; 2 Thessalonians 1:8; Revelation 21:8, etc.). A very complete development of the Scriptural argument, especially in regard to the Old Testament, may be found in Atzberger's "Die christliche Eschatologie in den Stadien ihrer Offenbarung im Alten und Neuen Testament", Freiburg, 1890. Also the Fathers, from the very earliest times, are unanimous in teaching that the wicked will be punished after death. And in proof of their doctrine they appeal both to Scripture and to reason (cf. Ignatius, "Ad Eph.", v, 16; "Martyrium s. Polycarpi", ii, n, 3; xi, n.2; Justin, "Apol.", II, n. 8 in P.G., VI, 458; Athenagoras, "De resurr. mort.", c. xix, in P.G., VI, 1011; Irenaeus, "Adv. haer.", V, xxvii, n. 2 in P.G. VII, 1196; Tertullian, "Adv. Marc.", I, c. xxvi, in P.L., IV, 277). For citations from this patristic teaching see Atzberger, "Gesh. der christl. Eschatologie innerhalb der vornicanischen Zeit" (Freiburg, 1896); Petavius, "De Angelis", III, iv sqq.

The Church professes her faith in the Athanasian Creed: "They that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire" (Denzinger, "Enchiridion", 10th ed., 1908, n.40). The Church has repeatedly defined this truth, e.g. in the profession of faith made in the Second Council of Lyons (Denx., n. 464) and in the Decree of Union in the Council of Florence (Denz., N. 693): "the souls of those who depart in mortal sin, or only in original sin, go down immediately into hell, to be visited, however, with unequal punishments" (poenis disparibus).
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07207a.htm

The Fathers and the Creed do not agree with the concept that the "Church prior to St. Augustine did not believe in the existence of hell".

Now, IF the Cross of Christ "covers everything", doesn't that destroy the entire concept of judgment in the Scriptures? What exactly would be the point of judging - for damnation or heaven - as Christ points out - if the gates of hell were shut?

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Joe, I think I know you well enough and I believe that you are not calling Paul a liar, but it it does come across that way. Sorry.

You are correct, I am not calling Paul a liar!!!

Perhaps - but I don't know for sure - the problem lies in interpretation of defining whose works are whose and how the Scriptures speaks of works...

Please consider the following...

When we are a new creation, our works are indeed ours AND Christ's, since He abides within us. Our works now have meaning because of Christ, and yet, they ARE our works. Thus, when Christ speaks about OUR righteousness must exceed the Pharisees, He is NOT refering to our works WITHOUT Christ, since He also said we can do nothing good WITHOUT Him!

When the Bible speaks against works, they refer to those works that are man's WITHOUT God's graces, man trying to EARN something by his own abilities. Man cannot hold God accountable for something man does WITHOUT God, since man can do no good without God. But WITH God, Vic, ALL things are possible, to include being righteous in God's eyes because God is working within me the will and desire to do good...

One more thing:

Who believes Hebrews 10 has a lot to say about this issue? I do. I believe it tells us Jesus' death was one shot deal and sufficient for all sin of those who had/have Faith. He was offered up only once as a sacrifice and suffered only once. Once is enough

Heb 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Heb 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;!

No doubt. That is WHY Christ's intercession for us in the PRESENT have any value. Rather than re-sacrifice, Christ's one-time offering is presented to the Father and the Father forgives us today of our sins...

Regards