Can true Christians lose their salvation ?

[Imagican]

Not ONLY 'other believers', for Christ HIMSELF offered that we are to LOVE our ENEMIES as well. Those that are 'LOST' as WELL as, those that are saved. Beware of the teachings of the Pharasees and such, for these will WELL teach that the LOVE of God is limited. And that OUR love as well SHOULD be limited to THOSE 'like us'. False teaching in it's MOST deceptive garb. For Satan would LOVE to convince us that we are ONLY to love those LIKE US. Developing and exhibiting a LACK of love to all others.

As a matter of FACT: WHO do you believe NEEDS our LOVE the most? Those that are LOST or those that are SAVED?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Bubba]

From an article from CRI:

"Most Christians have probably had moments of doubt about their salvation. After all, we've all entertained thoughts and have committed acts that we knew were displeasing to God. We've all experienced that sense of remorse and sometimes questioned the reality of our salvation afterwards. Backsliding can no doubt cause such feelings to arise, and should hopefully move us to repentance (1 John 1:9).

However, when it comes to the issue of eternal security, the Bible makes it absolutely clear that those who have been saved will never be lost. Jesus emphatically pointed this out in the Gospel of John when, in reference to believers, He said, "I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand..." (John 10:28). In this passage, Christ explicitly declared that no one who has received eternal life will ever lose it.

Furthermore, in such passages as 2 Corinthians 1:22, and Ephesians 1:13, the apostle Paul indicated that the Holy Spirit acts as the very seal of God's ownership of the believer; He serves as the guarantee of our inheritance to come - namely, eternal life (John 5:24; 1 John 5:13). In describing our inheritance the apostle Peter used some very powerful words - words like "imperishable," "undefiled," and "unfading" (1 Pet. 1:5). With these words He underscored the everlasting assurance believers have with respect to God's gift of salvation.

Now I know what you're asking: "What about the Christians who have completely abandoned their faith?" Well, judging by what we're told in Scripture we can only conclude that they were never saved from the start. You see, while "once saved, always saved" is true from God's perspective, man only looks at the outward appearance and thus cannot always accurately assess who is really saved in the first place. The question therefore is not whether someone lost their salvation, but whether they had ever had it at all. As Romans chapter eight says, "there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (v. 38-29). He is the very source of our salvation.

And remember, eternal life that comes to the believer through faith in Christ is not life for two weeks, two months, or even two years; eternal life is everlasting life. It begins at the moment of conversion and stretches on through the eons of time."

 

[Imagican]

Bubba,

And even with these enticing words that you offer you would FAIL to offer OTHER words that TEACH us to 'work out' our SALVATION. That we are to 'run the race like we MEAN to WIN it'. That those that TURN their BACKS on the TRUTH once they have FOUND it are in WORSE shape AFTER having KNOWN than BEFORE.

Our faith is a faith of BELIEVING, not 'wishing'. And that belief MUST remain in order for it to BE 'true belief'.

While IF saved always saved takes a little bit DEEPER step in the RIGHT direction, it still offers that OUR understanding is paramont to TRUE understanding.

I question the validity that denies that ANY gift can BE refused. For God is NOT a God of FORCE but of CHOICE. For IF He had CHOSEN to force ANYTHING, i can assure EVERYONE that it would have BEEN; Eternal life for ALL His Creation. Yet we KNOW that there will be many that will NEVER accept what He has offered. And there will be those that ACCEPT and then TURN back to that which is ABLE to appease the FLESH. For we have a parable that explains this EXACT principle: A man that has 'cleaned his house, (come to Christ), but then, after, he slips BACK into his previous condition, But not only does he 'slip back', but when the demon that was 'forced out' looks back and sees what a NICE clean PLACE he left, he returns with NUMEROUS other demons so that the man's final condition is worse than where he started from.

Now many would refute the offering in this parable FOR the SAKE of OSAS. But the truth is that this was offered for UNDERSTANDING. and that understanding is pretty CLEAR.

WHY were we ALL warned SO OFTEN of the perils of ALLOWING Satan to influence us. For the Bible was NOT written for UNBELIEVERS, but BELIEVERS. Those addressed are almost EXCLUSIVELY those that have COME to Christ.

Many would offer that a 'true Christian' cannot surcome to the wiles of the devil for the sake of scripture as you have offered Bubba. But the TRUTH is that IF this were SO, then we would NEVER have been offered the warnings and understanding that it IS the Christian that MUST beware and PUT ON The WHOLE armor of God and wear it incessantly. For those that LOVE God and follow Christ ARE the enemies of DEATH. And Satan DOES concentrate his efforts on those that BELIEVE more than those that DON'T. For those that DON'T have already surcomed to his temptations and he ALREADY OWNS them.

Paul even offers that Satan was there to hender HIS work. Now, if there was EVER one that we can REST assured in BEING a Christian, then Paul would certainly be one of these.

And what a Potent weapon indeed that Satan could USE against the Christian than to TEMPT them into an UNNATURAL BELIEF that what God has offered CANNOT be denied, or LOST. Teaching an unatural 'wishful thinking' that mimics FAITH but in reality is nothing more than SELF security. A belief in that which one CHOOSES to believe rather than that actually offered from above.

Beware of the WAY in which you CHOOSE to be led or taught. Beware of the LESSONS that you choose to offer to others. For we that choose to TEACH WILL bear the MORE stern judgement.

We are to be able to TRUST God. But we must UNDERSTAND that which we TRUST. For there ARE stipulations offered in reference to Salvation. We CANNOT demand it, nor can we REST in it UNLESS we abide in the CONDITIONS set down from above. NO amount of 'wishful thinking' can BRING ABOUT true FAITH. and NO amount of 'false faith' is able to alter the FACT that life is God's to offer and UNDER WHATEVER conditions that HE dictates. And there ARE CERTAINLY conditions. For if those that FOLLOW in truth are BARELY saved, what assurance COULD those that DON'T possess? Only their OWN 'wishful thinking' brought about through inaccurate teaching or understanding.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Bubba]

Mec,

My take on our salvation and sanctification, is that God changes our hearts to desire His ways through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Thus, our ability to take heed to those warnings in Scripture is assured. It is like having a blind man walking up to the edge of a clift and not adhering to the warning signs. We has believers are no longer spiritually blind to the ways of God and in fact the new heart that God has created in us causes us to walk in His ways (Ezek. 36:22-28). In passages like Phil. 2:12-13, working out our salvation with fear and trembling, is to me, coming to a understanding that it is God who is working in and through us for His own pleasure and purposes. That is a humbling realization as is Ephesians 2:10, where we are told that God has determined beforehand the works He would be doing in our lives.
My take in regards to the demons reoccupying the person in a greater measure then before, is that the person was not saved. If the Holy Spirit is present in an individual, you can not have demons possessing that person. If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand (Luke 11:19)? Harassing a believer yes, possessing no. The context of this passage is: Matthew 12:39-45, “He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. 40For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 41The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here. 42The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here.
43"When an evil spirit comes out of a man, it goes through arid places seeking rest and does not find it. 44Then it says, 'I will return to the house I left.' When it arrives, it finds the house unoccupied, swept clean and put in order. 45Then it goes and takes with it seven other spirits more wicked than itself, and they go in and live there. And the final condition of that man is worse than the first. That is how it will be with this wicked generation." Jesus was talking about wicked unbelieving people of this generation listening to His words, were more wicked then past generations.

Grace, Bubba

 

[Bubba]

A good article supporting the security of our salvation. Bubba


“Where Calvinism asserts that ‘it is impossible for those who are truly among the elect to lose their salvation’ (since their final salvation has been predestined and, thus, guaranteed) the original Arminians taught that ‘it is possible to fall from grace and be lost’. A person who once chose to accept Christ can later choose to reject him. If that person then dies before turning back to Christ, they are not saved. So, just as an act of the human will is required to save someone initially, so human free will can negate that salvation at any point in the future. Here, Arminian doctrine seems to make nonsense of Romans 8:39 which says that nothing can ‘separate us from the love of God’. If the Arminians are correct, human free will – which surely counts as a ‘thing’ in creation – does indeed have that power. Thus, any kind of assurance of salvation is undermined.

Luther and the rest of the Reformers believed that one could (and should) enjoy assurance of salvation since salvation is entirely a work of God. Classical Arminianism thought the loss of such assurance a price worth paying in order to be free from the unacceptable implications of double predestination and limited atonement. Modern Arminians, on the other hand, have tried to have their cake and eat it. They seek to offer the ‘eternal security’ of Calvinism to all people (not just the elect) in accordance with the main tenet of Arminianism – that salvation is genuinely available to all.

As Slagle says, while ‘this understanding of the gospel is the kindest’ it is also the ‘most inherently self-contradictory’. Holloway is surely correct when he states ‘we can’t have it both ways… we are either saved by God’s mercy or we procure our salvation or damnation by our own efforts [i.e. by believing]’. If the former, then once a person is saved, they are saved forever, as Calvinism declares. If the latter, then it must be possible for that person to lose their salvation – unless, of course, anyone who has believed in Christ at some point in their life is saved even if they subsequently renounce him. Few, if any, would be prepared to argue this case.â€Â

Wright 1996, 33.
Wright 1996, 33. Rather significantly, it is only people who are ‘who are trying to be justified by law’ that have ‘fallen away from grace’ according to Scripture – Paul in Galatians 5:4. Falling from grace is, thus, a result of self-effort, not something that self-effort prevents.
McGrath 2001, 462.
Slagle 1998, 11.
Holloway 1992, 12-13.

 

[Vic C.]

Bubba, quick question for you, having a understanding of Calvinism:

Do you believe O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are one in the same?

One more question:

Do you believe God elects some and then uses this elect to further spread the Gospel and salvation message? Limited Atonement , as it is usually taught, never did sound right to me.

 

[cyberjosh]

Do you believe O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are one in the same?

*raises hand for permission to answer question*

 

[Bubba]

Bubba, quick question for you, having a understanding of Calvinism:

Do you believe O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are one in the same?

One more question:

Do you believe God elects some and then uses this elect to further spread the Gospel and salvation message? Limited Atonement , as it is usually taught, never did sound right to me.

Vic,
Yes for both questions and I agree that “Limited Atonement†has also been a source of upheaval for me, even when I used be a 5-point Calvinist. No matter how you work it out, Limit Atonement causes one to question; does God really love the human race? In a way the Arminian position also promotes a sense of Limited Atonement, limited to a decision made by man.
Peace, Bubba

 

[Vic C.]

Do you believe O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are one in the same?

*raises hand for permission to answer question*

Sure, though it did pertain to what Bubba believes... but go for it! :-D

 

[Bubba]

Since it is always wise to define your terms, OSAS would coinside with Perseverance of the Saints, if one realizes that the true believer will have fruit.
Bubba
Dr. C. Matthew McMahan writes:
" Perseverance of the saints teaches that once God has renewed the heart of a sinner through the application of the redemption wrought by Christ upon the cross, he will continue to be saved and show forth the fruits of that salvation. The sinner perseveres because of Christ, but he continually shows himself as one who has been changed by Christ. God has saved the individual and will sanctify him until the end when he is ultimately glorified, and in heaven. It does not mean man has a license to sin. Those who think they have a license to sin are not changed and saved by grace. They are still in sin. Those who are saved by grace and changed, desire to show forth the fruits of that salvation. God motions the heart to good work, and continues that good work to the end."

 

[cyberjosh]

[quote="Vic. C":4e67f]Do you believe O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are one in the same?

*raises hand for permission to answer question*

Sure, though it did pertain to what Bubba believes... but go for it! :-D[/quote:4e67f]

Thanks.

Well, I do not think O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are the same, and believe that a sharp distinction should be drawn. While someone may still believe that salvation cannot be lost once given, Perseverance of the Saints further identifies and qualifies the conditions about the behavior of those to be identified as saved, and puts a certain goal & mission ahead to be reached and pursued towards right from the outset. However the completely unbiblical doctrine of O.S.A.S. has neither this qualification or condition put on the "saved" person. O.S.A.S. induces a lull of self-comforting apathy and puts the focus of salvation on what it did for you rather than on the reason God gave it to us. With Perseverance of the Saints there is atleast a demonstration and pursuit of "bearing fruits worthy of salvation". I may not agree 100% with Perseverance of the Saints, but by-golly, in light of God's election, it sure qualifies for Perseverance of the Elect and shows that the elect will not fall away after God's gift of salvation - demonstrated by their active pursuit of Christ.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Phillipians 3:12)

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Bubba]

Well, I do not think O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are the same, and believe that a sharp distinction should be drawn. While someone may still believe that salvation cannot be lost once given, Perseverance of the Saints further identifies and qualifies the conditions about the behavior of those to be identified as saved, and puts a certain goal & mission ahead to be reached and pursued towards right from the outset. However the completely unbiblical doctrine of O.S.A.S. has neither this qualification or condition put on the "saved" person. O.S.A.S. induces a lull of self-comforting apathy and puts the focus of salvation on what it did for you rather than on the reason God gave it to us. With Perseverance of the Saints there is atleast a demonstration and pursuit of "bearing fruits worthy of salvation". I may not agree 100% with Perseverance of the Saints, but by-golly, in light of God's election, it sure qualifies for Perseverance of the Elect and shows that the elect will not fall away after God's gift of salvation - demonstrated by their active pursuit of Christ.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Phillipians 3:12)

God Bless,

~Josh

[/quote]

Since it is always wise to define your terms, OSAS would coinside with Perseverance of the Saints, if one realizes that the true believer will have fruit.
Bubba

 

[cyberjosh]

Well, I do not think O.S.A.S. and Perseverance of the Saints are the same, and believe that a sharp distinction should be drawn. While someone may still believe that salvation cannot be lost once given, Perseverance of the Saints further identifies and qualifies the conditions about the behavior of those to be identified as saved, and puts a certain goal & mission ahead to be reached and pursued towards right from the outset. However the completely unbiblical doctrine of O.S.A.S. has neither this qualification or condition put on the "saved" person. O.S.A.S. induces a lull of self-comforting apathy and puts the focus of salvation on what it did for you rather than on the reason God gave it to us. With Perseverance of the Saints there is atleast a demonstration and pursuit of "bearing fruits worthy of salvation". I may not agree 100% with Perseverance of the Saints, but by-golly, in light of God's election, it sure qualifies for Perseverance of the Elect and shows that the elect will not fall away after God's gift of salvation - demonstrated by their active pursuit of Christ.

"Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me." (Phillipians 3:12)

God Bless,

~Josh

Since it is always wise to define your terms, OSAS would coinside with Perseverance of the Saints, if one realizes that the true believer will have fruit.
Bubba

I understand what you are saying, but OSAS is a very unfortunate term, because it is rarely qualified as such. I think only Perseverance of the Saints should he used and OSAS should be discontinued. Saying "Once you are saved you will always be saved", tells me nothing, and often nothing further is said. Perseverance of the Saints puts in its very title "perseverance" rather than "salvation", because salvation is as much present and future as it is in the past for those rescued by God's grace in Christ, and something to be endured and "worked out". I come from a Baptist background, trust me, Perseverance of the Saints was never mentioned. Thus I think OSAS as a term and quite possibly a concept should be discontinued in favor of Perseverance of the Saints. Do you understand what I am saying?

~Josh

 

[Imagican]

The argument that IF one is ABLE to 'go back' they were NEVER 'saved' to begin with does NOT bear fruit.

For Paul and others warned that there were 'those have gone OUT FROM AMONG US' to spread damnable heresies.....................

This in itself bears scrutiny. For there is OUTRIGHT statement of FACT that those in reference WERE those that had 'Gone out from AMONG THEM'. The statement is NOT that there were those that had UNRIGHTEOUSLY infiltrated their churches. But there there had BEEN those that had LITERALLY 'gone out from AMONG THEM'.

David KNEW God yet murdered and committed adultery. Judas was ONE of the APOSTLES.

Acts 5

[1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
[6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
[7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
[8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
[10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
[11] And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Now, WHY would this man or woman have given ANYTHING to the apostles had it NOT been for BEING 'born again'? If they were NOT a 'part of the church', how would they even have KNOWN to GIVE TO the church?

And NOTE as well: "And great fear came upon ALL the CHURCH, and upon as many as heard these things.

Fear? Upon THE CHURCH? Fear of WHAT. For if OSAS was a FACT instead of falacy, then these would have NOT A THING to FEAR. And FEAR itself would have been an IMPOSSIBILITY to those that were OSAS. For how could one that is SAVED fear the implications of the story told above?

Nope, NO bearing of fruit offered in OSAS. Only a reassurance of that which is UNABLE to be 'assured' except through a CONTINUATION of the conditions offered up as suitable FOR Salvation. OSAS is nothing other than the WILL of man attempting to usurp the authority of God. An UNATURAL belief in something that has NEVER been offered through Word or Spirit. An ATTEMPT to 'brainwash oneself' into a BELIEF that has NOT been offered from above but through the carnal minds and hearts of those that CREATED it.

The proof is there in black and white. The LIGHT that we are able to share would negate the very essence of OSAS. For in the LIGHT there is knowledge and in knowledge LOVE and OSAS from MY perspective ONLY offers SELF LOVE. A FALSE re-assurance for those choosing to LIVE IN sin that it DOESN'T really matter. That ONCE they have COME to Christ, then it's ALL a 'down hill ride' from there.

Yet EVERYTHING that we have been offered TELLS us to perservere. To OVERCOME. To RUN the race like we mean to WIN it. To searve in fear and trembling. To wear the WHOLE armor of God. To 'TRUST', to LOVE, to BELIEVE. But NOT believe in doctrines brought in by those that would make merchandise of any willing to listen and follow.

The evidence of a 'continued' desire and a continued FAITH in the TRUTH is paramont to ANY such doctrines that offer such a FALSE sense of security.

Can a 'true Christian lose their Salvation'? I don't BELIEVE that there is ANY such THING as a 'true Christian' UNTIL one DIES in their FAITH. We are told to LIVE every DAY as if it were the LAST. To BE prepared. WHY? So that upon that day of our PHYSICAL death we are READY. So that NOTHING is able to KEEP us FROM the reward. If we could NOT loose it, then it could BE no reward. As in THIS world, we continually see those that for the sake of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, when they are caught for 'cheating' they are STRIPPED of their reward. It is TAKEN from them and they are left with NOTHING other than their OWN shame and bitterness.

Beware of doctrines of men that would ROB you of the 'gift' that has been offered. Teaching things UNSEEMLY and UNATURAL. TRUST in the Word and The Spirit INSTEAD of men and there will be LITTLE chance of falling to THEIR desires.

Blessings, my brothers and I can see that there has been MUCH effort to support the TRUTH offered by many here. And blessings to those that are willing and able to 'spread the GOOD news' through truth and Spirit.

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Since it is always wise to define your terms, OSAS would coinside with Perseverance of the Saints, if one realizes that the true believer will have fruit.

How often will the "true believer" have fruit? Everyday of his life? When does one say "he doesn't have fruit" and is "disqualified? Look at those you know. Those who have fallen away and do not bear fruit - are we in the position to know they are not of the Saints who will persevere? And on the other hand - how about those ministers who appear to be a "saint" and may in the future commit adultery and leave, even becoming an atheist???

This subjective judgment gets us nowhere on determing who is a "true believer". Luke 15 has an interesting story about someone who displayed very little "fruit" until the end when he repents. Did the older brother's judgment make a difference? Or even the younger brother's view of himself? Frankly, this idea that we judge who is a Christian by their "works" and applying it to eternal salvation is not for us to undertake because WE do not KNOW the manner by which God will judge us upon our deaths, nor do we know our own futures.

The idea of "Perseverance of Saints" is really a pointless doctrine, because NONE of us KNOW we individually are the saints predestined for heaven. The doctrine technically applies to the Church as a society. Whether WE are to enter into eternal rest with God upon our deaths is something we will know only upon our deaths, looking back over our lives as we stand before Christ. It will be pointed out how He graced us along the way, remaining with us even when we did NOT bear good fruits (and perhaps our more "rigourous and self-righteous brothers" considered us "unsaved"). Only God judges - we can only surmise. In the end, we rely on God's mercy, no matter what we think about our calling and our walk.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

The argument that IF one is ABLE to 'go back' they were NEVER 'saved' to begin with does NOT bear fruit.

For Paul and others warned that there were 'those have gone OUT FROM AMONG US' to spread damnable heresies.....................

This in itself bears scrutiny. For there is OUTRIGHT statement of FACT that those in reference WERE those that had 'Gone out from AMONG THEM'. The statement is NOT that there were those that had UNRIGHTEOUSLY infiltrated their churches. But there there had BEEN those that had LITERALLY 'gone out from AMONG THEM'.

David KNEW God yet murdered and committed adultery. Judas was ONE of the APOSTLES.

Acts 5

[1] But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
[2] And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
[3] But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
[4] Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.
[5] And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
[6] And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.
[7] And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.
[8] And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.
[9] Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.
[10] Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
[11] And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Now, WHY would this man or woman have given ANYTHING to the apostles had it NOT been for BEING 'born again'? If they were NOT a 'part of the church', how would they even have KNOWN to GIVE TO the church?

And NOTE as well: "And great fear came upon ALL the CHURCH, and upon as many as heard these things.

Fear? Upon THE CHURCH? Fear of WHAT. For if OSAS was a FACT instead of falacy, then these would have NOT A THING to FEAR. And FEAR itself would have been an IMPOSSIBILITY to those that were OSAS. For how could one that is SAVED fear the implications of the story told above?

Nope, NO bearing of fruit offered in OSAS. Only a reassurance of that which is UNABLE to be 'assured' except through a CONTINUATION of the conditions offered up as suitable FOR Salvation. OSAS is nothing other than the WILL of man attempting to usurp the authority of God. An UNATURAL belief in something that has NEVER been offered through Word or Spirit. An ATTEMPT to 'brainwash oneself' into a BELIEF that has NOT been offered from above but through the carnal minds and hearts of those that CREATED it.

The proof is there in black and white. The LIGHT that we are able to share would negate the very essence of OSAS. For in the LIGHT there is knowledge and in knowledge LOVE and OSAS from MY perspective ONLY offers SELF LOVE. A FALSE re-assurance for those choosing to LIVE IN sin that it DOESN'T really matter. That ONCE they have COME to Christ, then it's ALL a 'down hill ride' from there.

Yet EVERYTHING that we have been offered TELLS us to perservere. To OVERCOME. To RUN the race like we mean to WIN it. To searve in fear and trembling. To wear the WHOLE armor of God. To 'TRUST', to LOVE, to BELIEVE. But NOT believe in doctrines brought in by those that would make merchandise of any willing to listen and follow.

The evidence of a 'continued' desire and a continued FAITH in the TRUTH is paramont to ANY such doctrines that offer such a FALSE sense of security.

Can a 'true Christian lose their Salvation'? I don't BELIEVE that there is ANY such THING as a 'true Christian' UNTIL one DIES in their FAITH. We are told to LIVE every DAY as if it were the LAST. To BE prepared. WHY? So that upon that day of our PHYSICAL death we are READY. So that NOTHING is able to KEEP us FROM the reward. If we could NOT loose it, then it could BE no reward. As in THIS world, we continually see those that for the sake of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, when they are caught for 'cheating' they are STRIPPED of their reward. It is TAKEN from them and they are left with NOTHING other than their OWN shame and bitterness.

Beware of doctrines of men that would ROB you of the 'gift' that has been offered. Teaching things UNSEEMLY and UNATURAL. TRUST in the Word and The Spirit INSTEAD of men and there will be LITTLE chance of falling to THEIR desires.

Blessings, my brothers and I can see that there has been MUCH effort to support the TRUTH offered by many here. And blessings to those that are willing and able to 'spread the GOOD news' through truth and Spirit.

MEC

We may have lots of disagreements, but you are spot-on here. Lots of good stuff to consider.

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Since it is always wise to define your terms, OSAS would coinside with Perseverance of the Saints, if one realizes that the true believer will have fruit.

How often will the "true believer" have fruit? Everyday of his life? When does one say "he doesn't have fruit" and is "disqualified? Look at those you know. Those who have fallen away and do not bear fruit - are we in the position to know they are not of the Saints who will persevere? And on the other hand - how about those ministers who appear to be a "saint" and may in the future commit adultery and leave, even becoming an atheist???

This subjective judgment gets us nowhere on determing who is a "true believer". Luke 15 has an interesting story about someone who displayed very little "fruit" until the end when he repents. Did the older brother's judgment make a difference? Or even the younger brother's view of himself? Frankly, this idea that we judge who is a Christian by their "works" and applying it to eternal salvation is not for us to undertake because WE do not KNOW the manner by which God will judge us upon our deaths, nor do we know our own futures.

The idea of "Perseverance of Saints" is really a pointless doctrine, because NONE of us KNOW we individually are the saints predestined for heaven. The doctrine technically applies to the Church as a society. Whether WE are to enter into eternal rest with God upon our deaths is something we will know only upon our deaths, looking back over our lives as we stand before Christ. It will be pointed out how He graced us along the way, remaining with us even when we did NOT bear good fruits (and perhaps our more "rigourous and self-righteous brothers" considered us "unsaved"). Only God judges - we can only surmise. In the end, we rely on God's mercy, no matter what we think about our calling and our walk.

Regards

Francisdesales,
You have a lot of uncertainty in what you wrote. As you know I believe God uses all circumstances for His glory as the Prodigal demonstrates. It is comforting to me, to know that God is working through me for His glory and what He started in me, He will bring to completion.

Phil.1:6, “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.â€Â
Grace, Bubba

 

[Imagican]

Phil.1:6, “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.â€Â

While it is NOT a 'bad' thing to have confidence in that which is 'righteous', CONFIDENCE by NO MEANS offers that what one BELIEVES will indeed be brought into fruition simply for the SAKE of 'belief'.

Let me clarify:

That Paul had CONFIDENCE that what was started would CONTINUE has NO bearing on whether it WOULD or NOT.

And even with this concept in mind, what was 'begun' could very well LEAD to the destruction in the 'end'. For WE will be the 'condemners of OURSELVES'. That we will be judged is without doubt, but that our judgement will BE on OUR hearts just PROVES that it will be OUR concience that LEADS to the righteous judgement of God.

Now, what may well have BEGUN as 'a GOOD work' does NOT offer that it's completion will REMAIN a 'good work'. That is an awful lot of interpretation offered there that simply DOESN'T exist except in YOUR perception. For I do NOT 'see' what you have offered this statement to SAY.

A big problem when we CHOOSE to see what is offered inscriputure with NOTHING to 'back it up' other than the words themselves is that we LIMIT what we SEE by our OWN meager understanding.

And that I have confidence in God to COMPLETE everything that He has begun does NOT offer that it will ALL work out positively for EVERYONE that has ever KNOWN God. For what IS God's will often has LITTLE to do with US as 'individuals'. For HIS will WILL be done REGARDLESS of US, but THROUGH us for God has ALREADY seen 'what' we will choose to follow and that will LEAD in A particular direction REGARDLESS of our efforts at realization.

While IF this scripture that you offer COULD be used to PROVE a 'point', the POINT that you offer is to IGNORE everything else that we have been offered that speaks contradictorily from what YOU have offered as it's MEANING. You have CHOSEN to 'ignore' all OTHER possible implications in FAVOR of YOUR interpretation. That does NOT limit it to what YOU believe except in YOUR HEART and mind.

Read what I have offered and SEE if I have offered ANYTHING other than what is stated. I have ALL confidence in this statement made by Paul. And I TOO am BOUND by such confidence. But that does NOT offer that MY confidence is ABLE to alter the 'plan'. That MY confidence in MY will is able to OVERCOME or usurp that of Our Father.

Blessings Bubba

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,
You have a lot of uncertainty in what you wrote. As you know I believe God uses all circumstances for His glory as the Prodigal demonstrates. It is comforting to me, to know that God is working through me for His glory and what He started in me, He will bring to completion.

The Prodigal Son didn't KNOW his father would accept him. He had a fear that he would be just another slave at his father's feet. This is the humble attitude God desires of us, not the self-confident attitude that breeds complacency in the ways of the Lord.

Phil.1:6, “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.â€Â

And yet, Paul could write that he worked out his salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12-13)- and that he would run the race to the end for fear of being disqualified (1 Cor 9:27) As I said before, accept BOTH sides of the coin, Bubba.

My brother, I HOPE in salvation to eternal glory, depending upon the righteousness of God to reward those who obey Him. I have a humble confidence that my God will carry it to completion IF I continue to work out my salvation and run the race - with His grace that He gives. Paul speaks of hope, something that implies that all is NOT absolutely certain.

That is a big difference with thinking I am already finished the race and it just remains for God to "call me home".

Regards

 

[Bubba]

Colossians 1:13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son"
From a commentary by Barry Laminack:
“The word “translated†means to transpose, transfer, remove from one place to another; of change of situation or place.
The word “translated†also suggests drawing to one’s self, to rescue, to deliver. This drawing is not an alluring as most falsely teach, but means to cause to move in a particular direction by, or as if by, a pulling force. Think about it, if you are going to rescue someone from a falling object are you going to allure them from the danger, or are you going to grab them and pull them away with all your might? Likewise, at regeneration, God reaches down into the depths of darkness and lifts the person up and places him into the kingdom of Christ.â€Â
As you can readily understand from this verse, once a person is regenerated and believes on the Lord Jesus, he or she is transferred into the kingdom of God. It is a done deal and nothing on earth or in the heavenly realm can change this miraculous happening (Romans 8:38-39). Now that we are new creatures in the Lord, we will do those works He has already planned to work through us (Eph. 2:10 and Phil.2:13). The proof of this reconciliation with the Father is that we will continue in the faith (Col.1:23), and will persevere to the end (through the power of the Holy Spirit). If this is not the case, we never did really belong to Jesus and will suffer the consequences for our disobedience. The amazing aspect, is that our Lord as nonetheless reconciled all things unto Himself and after a period of correction in this life or the next that new creature will appear (Col.1:19-20).
Grace, Bubba