Can we honestly defend biblical inerrancy of the original manuscripts?

[jaybo]

as i said do your own research since you don't believe me

I asked you two questions and you answered neither. If there is any basis to your post, what is it?

 

[jaybo]

jaybo,

How do liberal Christians differ from evangelical Christians? Have you read the content of the theology in their writings?

See the difference in theology between John Shelby Spong and Wayne Grudem. Compare Spong's, Why Christianity Must Change or Die with Grudem's, Bible Doctrine.

Have you read anything of the heretical, postmodern, deconstructionist teachings in John Dominic Crossan, The Birth of Christianity? Why don't you compare Crossan's works with that of evangelical ancient historian, Paul Barnett, The Birth of Christianity: The First Twenty Years?

Oz

I read the Bible -- several different translations -- to learn and understand God's truth and wisdom. I learned long ago (in graduate school) that there are and always will be "learned" people who totally disagree with each other.

 

[jaybo]

jaybo,

How do liberal Christians differ from evangelical Christians? Have you read the content of the theology in their writings?

See the difference in theology between John Shelby Spong and Wayne Grudem. Compare Spong's, Why Christianity Must Change or Die with Grudem's, Bible Doctrine.

Have you read anything of the heretical, postmodern, deconstructionist teachings in John Dominic Crossan, The Birth of Christianity? Why don't you compare Crossan's works with that of evangelical ancient historian, Paul Barnett, The Birth of Christianity: The First Twenty Years?

Oz

Acts 26:24, "At this point Festus interrupted Paul’s defense. “You are out of your mind, Paul!” he shouted. “Your great learning is driving you insane.” My how things have changed -- not!

 

[jasonc]

Paul a student of gamaliel,repented and thought his learning was dung.

yet Festus calls him insane for believing the cross ,which is it ?

 

[jaybo]

jaybo,

I use copies of the Australian $5 note regularly and the businesses where I spend the $ accept it as equivalent to the $5 note in the Royal Mint in Canberra. I've never seen that $5 note that is the original but I'm more than happy to accept a copy as representing the infallible $5 note.

So, we can accept inerrant original MSS, even though we only have copies that have been translated. Inerrancy has nothing to do with the world of the first century when the MSS were penned.

The inerrancy of the autographa depends on the nature of the One who gave us the Bible. "All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim 3:16-17).

Since all Scripture is breathed out by the absolutely pure and holy God who never lies, I can be confident the Scriptures that have reached me are inerrant in the originals.

Oz

So let's assume that you have mastered ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. And let's also assume that you have an exhaustive knowledge of the cultures in which the "books" of the Bible were written. And let's assume that you are an educated person, trained in Biblical translation. Does that make you infallible? Does that mean that the other interpretations by people who have equal credentials are wrong?

BTW, it may surprise you that not one of the authors of the Biblical "books" communicated in English, so their writings must be interpreted to our 21st Century Western minds. Your statement that "all Scripture is breathed out by the absolutely pure and holy God who never lies" should actually be "all Scripture was breathed out by the absolutely pure and holy God who never lies".

 

[jaybo]

If you're looking for an excellent Bible that contains not only a wonderful translation into modern English but also an excellent reference about many aspects of Bible translation and interpretation, I highly recommend the NET (New English Translation). There are over 60,000(!) translators' notes about the text, sources, meaning of difficult words and phrases, and much more. Of all the translations that I use, this is my go-to version. Have a (free) look at biblegateway.com

 

[Quantrill]

i was told by some liberal christians that the bible was written by man about his experience with God - making it to them the word of man

Yes, that is their common argument. We who are of God, know the Bible is the Word of God.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Qantrill,

One of the world's leading OT scholars, Dr Gleason L Archer, had lots of questions about certain passages of Scripture. Before he could affirm inerrancy, he had to check out the doubts he had about certain Scriptures. The result has been The Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (Zondervan 1982).

View attachment 10267

Oz

I am familiar with Archer.

I, however, hold to inerrancy period. I don't have to have an answer for every 'questionable' passage. The Bible is the Word of God, and so is inerrant.

Quantrill

 

[OzSpen]

deleted

 

[OzSpen]

I am familiar with Archer.

I, however, hold to inerrancy period. I don't have to have an answer for every 'questionable' passage. The Bible is the Word of God, and so is inerrant.

Quantrill

Quantrill,

So is that a leap of faith?

How do you interpret verses such as 1 Tim 2:14-15 (ESV): "and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

So let's assume that you have mastered ancient Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek. And let's also assume that you have an exhaustive knowledge of the cultures in which the "books" of the Bible were written. And let's assume that you are an educated person, trained in Biblical translation. Does that make you infallible? Does that mean that the other interpretations by people who have equal credentials are wrong?

BTW, it may surprise you that not one of the authors of the Biblical "books" communicated in English, so their writings must be interpreted to our 21st Century Western minds. Your statement that "all Scripture is breathed out by the absolutely pure and holy God who never lies" should actually be "all Scripture was breathed out by the absolutely pure and holy God who never lies".

jaybo,

Does it surprise you today that not one preacher you hear has a theopneustos (breathed out by God "inspiration")?

What should ordinary believers do when listening to such preachers/teachers? Acts 17:11 (NET) is very clear: "These Jews were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so."

You and I don't need to know Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek, Latin or Arabic. If we have questions about the Word preached, we need to be open to examining the Scriptures and talking it over with the preacher.l

Oz

 

[Quantrill]

Quantrill,

So is that a leap of faith?

How do you interpret verses such as 1 Tim 2:14-15 (ESV): "and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control."

Oz

It is not a 'leap' of faith. But yes, it is faith. It is the same faith that tells me Jesus is Lord and Saviour.

I don't understand how I interpret (1Tim. 2:14-15) would matter.

Quantrill

 

[OzSpen]

It is not a 'leap' of faith. But yes, it is faith. It is the same faith that tells me Jesus is Lord and Saviour.

I don't understand how I interpret (1Tim. 2:14-15) would matter.

Quantrill

Q,

Who is this Jesus you put your faith in as Lord and Saviour?

Do you understand how a woman can be saved through childbearing (1 Tim 2:14-15)? It may not be important to you, but for me it has a great deal to do with salvation for women. I need to know the content of what it states through accurate exegesis of the text.

It may not be important to you, but knowing what it means had a great deal of importance to me in understanding Scripture accurately.

Oz

 

[Quantrill]

Q,

Who is this Jesus you put your faith in as Lord and Saviour?

Do you understand how a woman can be saved through childbearing (1 Tim 2:14-15)? It may not be important to you, but for me it has a great deal to do with salvation for women. I need to know the content of what it states through accurate exegesis of the text.

It may not be important to you, but knowing what it means had a great deal of importance to me in understanding Scripture accurately.

Oz

I'm all for understanding Scripture accurately. But that plays no role in my view of the Bible as the Word of God. That which I understand in the Bible is the Word of God. That which I don't understand in the Bible is the Word of God.

I come to the Bible as the written Word of God. I then seek understanding in it.

Quantrill

 

[jaybo]

Yes, that is their common argument. We who are of God, know the Bible is the Word of God.

Quantrill

This is an excellent example of prejudice when you say things like "we who are of God". I am a liberal Christian, so when you write " some liberal christians" (without capitalizing Christians), to whom are you referring?

Suppose I said that conservative Christians have missed the truth of Christ? What would be your reaction to this similar kind of prejudice?

Do these verses apply to you? Matthew 7:1-3, “Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?"

 

[Truthfrees]

Yes, that is their common argument. We who are of God, know the Bible is the Word of God.

Quantrill

amen

 

[Truthfrees]

I asked you two questions and you answered neither. If there is any basis to your post, what is it?

i looked at your posting history - most all your posts are unfriendly towards members here - i am not interested in discussing anything with you - there are a lot of good people here to have a friendly discussion with - find someone else to discuss with and treat them like a friend and maybe you will have a better time here

 

[jaybo]

i looked at your posting history - most all your posts are unfriendly towards members here - i am not interested in discussing anything with you - there are a lot of good people here to have a friendly discussion with - find someone else to discuss with and treat them like a friend and maybe you will have a better time here

You said, "i am not interested in discussing anything with you" yet you post the above message. I am not looking for "a better time" by agreeing with you. I am looking for an honest dialogue about Christianity. I'm sorry that you can't handle that.

 

[jaybo]

Yes, that is their common argument. We who are of God, know the Bible is the Word of God.

Quantrill

Who actually, physically, wrote the "books" of the Bible? They were written by men, not God.

 

[jaybo]

i was told by some liberal christians that the bible was written by man about his experience with God - making it to them the word of man

Who are these "liberal christians"? (Not capitalized by you) When and where did they tell you this?

You know who were the Conservatives of Jesus' day? The Pharisees , Sadducees, the Sanhedrin etc. They knew what the Scriptures said and debated the "liberal" Jesus. And we know who won those arguments!

It may be trendy these days among Conservatives to bash Liberals, just like it was 2000+ years ago. It reinforces to one another the right to judge others even though Jesus said not to judge your neighbors but to love them.

From where I "sit" as a Liberal all I hear and read from Conservatives is attacks on others. Why is that?

BTW, I realize that we are deviating from the subject of the OP. As for me, I want to get back to discussing Biblical inerrancy and away from politics (church and domestic)