Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Hopeful]

Fruit trees don't always have fruit, and have bad fruit along with the good.

The fruit, however, is always of the fig's seed.
It cannot bring forth olives.
Your POV is that some seed can bring forth fruit of a different seed.
In this case, it is God's seed you opine can bring forth liars and thieves.

How does that fit into your doctrine of sinless perfection?

If you can't understand Jesus', or John's, or James' similes/parables, it is time to ask the Holy Spirit for help.

You're missing the point of the analogy. He's drawing the stark contrast between true and false prophets, like the difference between wolves and sheep.

Just as I am, with the stark contrast between those walking in the Spirit and those still walking in the flesh.
One is reborn of God and the other is still of Adam's seed.

You don't approach a thorn bush to seek fruit, just as you would not approach a person who has no fruit of the Spirit to receive spiritual truth from God.

Sometimes the approach can save a man's soul.
After a "turn from sin", a man can be reborn when he is "raised with Christ to walk in newness of life". (Rom 6:4)

You recognize a true believer by the fruit that they bear. It's not a sermon about how true believers are perfectly sinless.

If the fruit is of the devil, you can tell he is not reborn of God's seed.

 

[Hopeful]

The ever increasing traits and fruit of the Spirit is what confirms ones calling and election.

For sure.
If there are no traits of the fruit of the Spirit, the status of the person is equally confirmed as of the devil.

These are the plain words of scripture that nullify your sinless perfection doctrine. You un-rightly divide scripture by lifting scripture out of context to nullify Peter's words.

I see no nullification is growth in grace and knowledge.
I don't see Peter defending the fruit of the devil's seed either.

 

[Hopeful]

I am married to a divorced woman and therefore, according to Jesus, I am living in adultery (Matthew 5:32).

Did you know this when you married her?

I would have to say with David that "my sin is ever before me" (Psalms 51:3); because God also hateth putting away (Malachi 3:16) so that is not an option.

Is her real husband still alive?
Did she leave him because of his adultery?

 

[Hopeful]

Stop isolating 1 John from the whole counsel of scripture!

There is no need to isolate 1 John 1:5,7, 2:3-6,10, 3:6-10,24, 4:16-18, 5:3,18; as it goes along with the entire context of Gods word.
Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Thankfully, God has made the way to accomplish that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Then you don't believe Rom 6:6-7, or Gal 5:24, or Rom 7:5, 8:9, or Col 2:11.
All speak to the casting off or destruction of the "flesh".
Walk in the Spirit instead of the flesh.

Obviously, the flesh and it's desires is still alive. The authority of the flesh is what is dead.

This being true, we then by faith believe that the flesh has been rendered powerless to make us fulfill it's desires like it used to be able to do before we received the Holy Spirit in salvation. That faith to resist sin grows in the Christian, becoming more and more able to resist temptation and walk according to the desires of the Spirit instead of according to the desires of the flesh.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

There is no need to isolate 1 John 1:5,7, 2:3-6,10, 3:6-10,24, 4:16-18, 5:3,18; as it goes along with the entire context of Gods word.
Love God with all your might, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Thankfully, God has made the way to accomplish that.

He has made the way to be victorious over sin. We just don't always take it.

 

[justbyfaith]

Did you know this when you married her?

Yes. That is what I get for being in the Calvary Chapel tradition. They teach that we are all sinners, irreparably and that the only way to be saved has to do with acknowledging that.

I didn't count myself as being perpetually a sinner; and I married someone who was divorced so that I would be able to enter in to a perpetual sin in order that I might be able to acknowledge that I am perpetually a sinner and be saved in that acknowledgement.

Is her real husband still alive?
Did she leave him because of his adultery?

She has two former husbands; and yes, both of them are still alive.

The first left her because of her adultery.

And the second one left her because she aborted his baby.

Our relationship began with missionary dating on my part; I don't think she was saved when I met her.

Since we've been married, I believe that she has given her heart to the Lord.

And I am also her real husband.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you think this thread upholding sinning, shows faith in Christ, it shows how to die in our sins. ( no belief in Christ.)

The scriptures explain why born again Christians sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Galatians 2:11-14
Them not really being born again is an impossible argument to make. So I'm guessing you'll make it so they were not really sinning.

Thanks for the clarification.
Is it a sin to put away the beers when a JW or Mormon shows up, and you invite them in for a talk?
Is it a sin to serve roast beef instead of ham when a Jewish neighbor comes by for dinner?
Is it a sin to quit talking about sexual topics when the kids run into the room?
Don't we all make special provisions for visitors?
Why then, is it a sin for Peter to please the visiting Jews when they arrived by separating himself from the Gentiles?
Peter's "fault" was that he missed an opportunity to make it clear to the visitors that the Gentiles were as good as they were in the eyes of God.
I sure wish more had been written about it.
Hopefully, the Jews ended up eating with the Gentiles as equal brothers instead of as some artificial superiors.
With Paul at the door, that probably did happen.

 

[Hopeful]

Yes. That is what I get for being in the Calvary Chapel tradition. They teach that we are all sinners, irreparably and that the only way to be saved has to do with acknowledging that.

They sound like the "church" that ignores what Jesus died to accomplish.
I hope you no longer support them.

I didn't count myself as being perpetually a sinner; and I married someone who was divorced so that I would be able to enter in to a perpetual sin in order that I might be able to acknowledge that I am perpetually a sinner and be saved in that acknowledgement.

I wonder how they got repentance from sin, conversion, and obedience to God out of that load of garbage.

She has two former husbands; and yes, both of them are still alive.
The first left her because of her adultery.
And the second one left her because she aborted his baby.
Our relationship began with missionary dating on my part; I don't think she was saved when I met her.

Since we've been married, I believe that she has given her heart to the Lord.

You aren't sure?

And I am also her real husband.

I won't get personal here.

 

[Hopeful]

How would I know unless he stipulated in his letters what his sin was? Though Paul didn't go into detail, he did make it very clear that he struggled with - and fell into - sin.

Romans 7:14-21 (NASB)
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.

Paul didn't frame his explanation here in the past tense, his struggle with sin now over. No, he wrote, "What I am doing," not "what I used to do," or "what I once did." But Paul is writing as a born-again apostle. According to you, he should be utterly without sin. But this isn't at all what he indicated about himself.

16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

Again, Paul did not write in the past tense but uses language that indicated a present and on-going battle with the "Law of Sin in his members." He didn't write "if I used to do the very thing I didn't want to do...," or "For I know that before the Holy Spirit came to live in me, nothing good dwelled in me." Instead, he wrote of a current state-of-affairs where "the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not."

19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.

And here, too, Paul continued to write of his struggle with sin in a current sense: "the good that I want, I do not do," and "I practice (not practiced) the very evil that I do not want." But this is exactly what we should expect of any human person indwelt by the Holy Spirit who is growing progressively more and more like Christ, as the Bible says is the case (see my earlier posts).



Brother, you need to be taught how to properly study God's word.

You need to realize that Paul was narrating his pre-conversion plaints of life while still in the flesh and trying to live according to the Law of Moses.
His Rom 7:23 plaint disappeared in Rom 8:2.
His Rom 7:24 plaint disappeared in Rom 6:6.

 

[Hopeful]

Every believer still has the flesh. What born again believers do not have is a mind set on and controlled by the flesh:

7 the mind of the flesh is hostile to God: It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so.
8Those controlled by the fleshd cannot please God.

9You, however, are controlled not by the flesh, but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. Romans 8:7-9

You are confusing "skin and bones" with the "worldly oriented mind" of those born of Adam's seed.

 

[Hopeful]

Obviously, the flesh and it's desires is still alive. The authority of the flesh is what is dead.

Then you don't believe Rom 6:6-7, or Gal 5:24, or Rom 7:5, 8:9, or Col 2:11.

This being true, we then by faith believe that the flesh has been rendered powerless to make us fulfill it's desires like it used to be able to do before we received the Holy Spirit in salvation. That faith to resist sin grows in the Christian, becoming more and more able to resist temptation and walk according to the desires of the Spirit instead of according to the desires of the flesh.

Thankfully, God's grace and protection grows along with our faith.
What may have been kept from us in our first year of conversion may be present later, after we have the grace and knowledge to refrain from more and more temptations. (1 Cor 10:13)

 

[justbyfaith]

You aren't sure?

Her relationship with the Lord is her own.

I see fruit there that wasn't there before.

She and the Lord know whether she is truly born again;

Just as in my own case, I believe that only I and the Lord know that I am born again.

Others can look in on our lives and make judgments based on our fruit;

But only the Lord and those who are saved know whether or not they are saved in the strictest sense...

If anyone is saved, then His Spirit bears witness with their spirit that they are the children of God (Romans 8:16).

If anyone isn't saved, then they don't have absolute assurance; doubt will set in at specific times.

But only you and God knows absolutely for certain whether or not you are saved.

Again I say, we can look in on a person's life and judge them by their fruit.

However, faith is subjective.

Only the individual and the Lord knows whether or not the person has a genuine faith.

Because someone may even have works that are associated with faith and yet not have a genuine faith.

In such a case, someone looking in from the outside may say, "that person is saved" looking at their fruit and the works that are accomplished by them.

However, they and the Lord both know that they do not have a genuine faith.

 

[Hopeful]

He has made the way to be victorious over sin. We just don't always take it.

We do take the way to resist temptation, if we have been reborn of God's seed.
If we have repented of sin.
If we have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[gordon777]

Will you guys not see what you are doing/taking part in, encouraging, just because you are doing it, and wont take a moment to see what is being shared with you all ?


Is the person trying to show peace ( peacemakers Matthew 5:9) have to be despised, to fulfil the scriptures for the people who do what God told they would be taking part in now ? (2 Timothy 3:3-4, traitors, heady, highminded, despisers of those that are good.)

Only by pride comes contention, with the WELL ADVISED IS WISDOM, therefore leave off strife BEFORE IT IS MEDDLED WITH.

It is HONOUR for a man to CEASE STRIFE, but every fool will be MEDDLING.





Proverbs 13:10 Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.

Proverbs 17:14 The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with.

Proverbs 20:3 It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.





We are to walk uprightly and work righteousness, speaking the truth in our heart.

Not be the wicked who work a deceitful work, but to them who sow righteousness is a sure reward.

In very nation, they who fear the Lord and work righteousness are accepted with Him.




Psalm 15:2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and speaketh the truth in his heart.


Proverbs 11:18 The wicked worketh a deceitful work: but to him that soweth righteousness shall be a sure reward.


Acts 10:35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.





NOTHING is to be done THROUGH STRIFE or VAINGLORY, but in LOWLINESS OF MIND, esteem the other better than yourself.

We are begotten with the WORD OF TRUTH, to let EVERY MAN, be SWIFT TO HEAR, SLOW TO SPEAK, SLOW TO WRATH.

The WRATH OF MAN DOES NOT WORK THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.

Lay aside all filthiness and superfluity ( UNNECESSARY) NAUGHTINESS, to FRECEIVE WITH MEEKNESS, the engrafted word able to save our souls. Be doers, not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. ( souls.)




Philippians 2:3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.


James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.
21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.





The tongue is a world of INIQUITY, it DEFILES THE WHOLE BODY AND SETS ON FIRE NATURE AND IS SET ON FIRE OF HELL.

The wise man endued with wisdom, ( ONLY BY PRIDE COMES CONTENTION, WITH THE WELL ADVISED IS WISDOM.) shows out of a good conversation ( without contention/strife/debate, disputes.) his works with MEEKNESS OF WISDOM.

Bitter envying and strife in the hearts, ( the wicked works a deceitful work, he that sows righteousness has the sure reward/walking uprightly, and working righteousness, and speaking the truth in his heart.) GLORY NOT, ( LET NOTHING BE DONE THROUGH STRIFE OR VAINGLORY.) that WISDOM DOES NOT DESCEND FROM ABOVE, ( with the well advised is wisdom, ONLY BY PRIDE COMES CONTENTION.) but is EARTHLY, SENSUAL, DEVILISH, ( These be they who separate themselves, SENSUAL, HAVING NOT THE SPIRIT.) For where ENVYING AND STRIFE IS, THERE IS COINFUSION AND EVERY EVIL WORK., ( God is NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION BUT OF PEACE.)

The wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. ( strife, debate, contention, perverse disputes of men is hypocrisy. Romans 1:29. 1 Timothy 6:3-5.)


The fruit of righteousness ( THE WRATH/STRIFE OF MAN WORKS NOT THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD.) is SOWN IN PEACE OF THEM THAT MAKE PEACE. ( the wicked work a deceitful work, to him that SOWS RIGHTEOUSNESS SHALL BE A SURE REWARD.)




James 3:6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.
17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[gordon777]

Sin is strife, born again cease strife, why would a born again have any trouble with doing what is of peace, only those who are not born again cannot do one single thing of the kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness.

The discussions encourage sin, they do not end sin, the whole topic, and every designed topic on forums, are the devils work, his ministers have to do something, the many false prophets have to rise to deceive many, and they are the very ones who hate the idea of being slow to speak and of hearing instead.

I said continue on, in your circles, and continue on you will do.

 

[gordon777]

Thanks for the clarification.
Is it a sin to put away the beers when a JW or Mormon shows up, and you invite them in for a talk?
Is it a sin to serve roast beef instead of ham when a Jewish neighbor comes by for dinner?
Is it a sin to quit talking about sexual topics when the kids run into the room?
Don't we all make special provisions for visitors?
Why then, is it a sin for Peter to please the visiting Jews when they arrived by separating himself from the Gentiles?
Peter's "fault" was that he missed an opportunity to make it clear to the visitors that the Gentiles were as good as they were in the eyes of God.
I sure wish more had been written about it.
Hopefully, the Jews ended up eating with the Gentiles as equal brothers instead of as some artificial superiors.
With Paul at the door, that probably did happen.

The fault is, any bad example is glory for satan, not for the Lord, the same as strife, contention, debate, dispute, will never glorify the Lord, but glorifies satan very much.

That was the change of the world at that moment, with wolves entering in the flock, and to sum up what Peter says later, is how the wisdom that was given to his beloved brother Paul, is resisted by those who resist the whole scriptures, to their own destruction.

Peter, Paul, all true followers of Jesus Christ, receive the correction immediately, but it is easily seen when anyone else, does not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Why then, is it a sin for Peter to please the visiting Jews when they arrived by separating himself from the Gentiles?

Just read the passage:

11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” Galatians 2:11-14

Born again Peter is sinning, and he led Barnabas and the other Jews into the same sin. And Paul called them out on it. Now, go back to your leader and tell him he started a church on a lie. Born again people really do sin. What they do not do is live in sin as a matter of unrepentant and willful, deliberate sin. Unconverted unbelievers do that, not born again people recreated in the inner man, but still very much possessing the flesh and it's corrupt desires. I've honestly thought for a long while now that your problem is you that are too proud to detect your own sin (Psalm 36:2 ). You can't see it because you're in denial fueled by pride.

2For his eyes are too full of conceit to detect or hate his own sin. Psalm 36:2

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We do take the way to resist temptation, if we have been reborn of God's seed.
If we have repented of sin.
If we have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Hmm. Wonder why Peter didn't take the way of escape from the condemnation of his sin of hypocrisy. Guess he wasn't born again.