Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Jethro Bodine]

You are confusing "skin and bones" with the "worldly oriented mind" of those born of Adam's seed.

I am not confusing them. The passage is about what mindset a person has, or doesn't have. It's not about if they have flesh bodies or not. We all, believer and unbeliever alike, have the flesh and it's corrupt desires. But because of the Holy Spirit born again people have their minds set on the things of the Spirit, not the flesh, and so when they sin it's not a matter of lifestyle like it was when they were unbelievers and had their minds set on the things of the flesh.

 

[Tenchi]

You need to realize that Paul was narrating his pre-conversion plaints of life while still in the flesh and trying to live according to the Law of Moses.

No, he wasn't. The very words of Paul indicate that, as he wrote his letter to the believers at Rome, he was in a daily battle between the "Law of Sin in his members" and the "Law of his mind" that was devoted to God's Law. There is nothing in his language in Romans 7:14-24 that suggests he was speaking of a past resolved circumstance. And this is why you haven't shown otherwise from the text of Romans 7:14-24.

His Rom 7:23 plaint disappeared in Rom 8:2.
His Rom 7:24 plaint disappeared in Rom 6:6.

Paul's "plaint" didn't disappear but it did find a solution - one that he (and every believer) would have to embrace and live in, by faith, every day. Until his physical death, or Christ's Second Coming, Paul would only be free of the power and penalty of sin, not its presence. As he explained to the believers in the province of Galatia,

Galatians 5:17 (NASB)
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

This is a constant state-of-affairs for every born-again believer, the flesh and the Spirit at odds within them and producing the sort of condition Paul described in Romans 7:14-24. But the solution to this inner struggle is to do as Paul taught in Romans 8 and live always under the control of the Holy Spirit, to "walk by the Spirit," not just "live by the Spirit," which is merely to be born-again (Galatians 5:16, 25).

Romans 8:12-14 (NASB)
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

See? Paul's solution to the war between the flesh and the Holy Spirit is submission to the Spirit (ie. - "being led by the Spirit") by which the transforming power of the Spirit is able to work freely within the believer, putting to death their flesh anew each day. This is another way of describing "walking in the Spirit" (as opposed to just living in him, as most believers do). This is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 6. In the chapter, Paul went on at length describing the life of submission in which every believer is to live by faith:

Romans 6:13-22 (NASB)
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Paul is speaking here to born-again believers who were not living as "slaves of righteousness," as "living sacrifices" to God (Romans 12:1). Obviously, if they had been living as "slaves of righteousness," Paul would not have had to comment on the subject. They weren't, and so, Paul had to urge the born-again believers at Rome to live as those "enslaved to God," as those who, by constant submission to the Holy Spirit, would be "walking in/by him" and thus able to "put to death the deeds of the body," moving, more and more, into a truly sanctified life (Romans 6:19, 22).

But, again, this is a condition in which the born-again believer, by faith, must choose to live in every day. Any other way of walking with God is of the flesh and breeds ultimately only corruption and death of some kind (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8).

It is a bit of a horror to me to see how far from this spiritual living that is so clearly laid out in God's word that you are, Hopeful. I hope and pray God will open your eyes to the truth of real Christian living, of walking in/by the Spirit, which is the only way to really enjoy daily fellowship with God (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3).

 

[Tenchi]

Sin is strife, born again cease strife, why would a born again have any trouble with doing what is of peace, only those who are not born again cannot do one single thing of the kingdom of Heaven and its righteousness.

It always astonishes me how blind you are to the hypocrisy in what you so often write. Every time you criticize the ideas and actions of those posting to these forums, you oppose them, you contend against their views and conduct (and for your own). In other words, you do the very thing you protest! When you decry the debates of the folk on this forum and urge them to take your view of things, you are contributing to the very debate you're complaining about!

It seems to me that what you want is to give your view of God's truth unopposed, to say "Thus says the Lord," without others assessing and perhaps criticizing your perspective. You dress up this desire in spiritual language, trying to argue for your self-interested goal by deriding your debating brethren as unrighteous (and likely not even truly born-again). But what you really achieve in all your hypocritical protests is a profound disinterest in your views. I have no desire to consider seriously anything you say so long as you continue to fuss and fume about others doing the very thing you do.

The discussions encourage sin, they do not end sin, the whole topic, and every designed topic on forums, are the devils work, his ministers have to do something, the many false prophets have to rise to deceive many, and they are the very ones who hate the idea of being slow to speak and of hearing instead.

And yet, you persist in adding to the "devil's work," flooding threads with your contentiousness and criticism, frequently adding deeply-flawed interpretations of Scripture to them, as well. "Physician, heal thyself."

 

[Hopeful]

Just read the passage:

11When Cephas came to Antioch, however, I opposed him to his face, because he stood to be condemned. 12For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

14When I saw that they were not walking in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, “If you, who are a Jew, live like a Gentile and not like a Jew, how can you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?” Galatians 2:11-14

Born again Peter is sinning, and he led Barnabas and the other Jews into the same sin. And Paul called them out on it. Now, go back to your leader and tell him he started a church on a lie. Born again people really do sin. What they do not do is live in sin as a matter of unrepentant and willful, deliberate sin. Unconverted unbelievers do that, not born again people recreated in the inner man, but still very much possessing the flesh and it's corrupt desires. I've honestly thought for a long while now that your problem is you that are too proud to detect your own sin (Psalm 36:2 ). You can't see it because you're in denial fueled by pride.

2For his eyes are too full of conceit to detect or hate his own sin. Psalm 36:2

I don't consider pleasing visitors a sin.
Is it a sin to put the good towels, or china, out when company comes by?

 

[Hopeful]

Hmm. Wonder why Peter didn't take the way of escape from the condemnation of his sin of hypocrisy. Guess he wasn't born again.

Perhaps because catering to visitors isn't a sin.

 

[Hopeful]

I am not confusing them. The passage is about what mindset a person has, or doesn't have. It's not about if they have flesh bodies or not.

I am glad you realize that.

We all, believer and unbeliever alike, have the flesh and it's corrupt desires.

Desires?
Won't the desires of God's fruit be different than the desires of satan's fruit?
What happened to your realization of the difference between skin and bones and worldly oriented minds?

But because of the Holy Spirit born again people have their minds set on the things of the Spirit, not the flesh,

Are you on a teeter-totter?
Now you're back on board.

and so when they sin it's not a matter of lifestyle like it was when they were unbelievers and had their minds set on the things of the flesh.

They don't sin, because they have a new, God oriented, mind.
You are defending sin.

 

[Hopeful]

No, he wasn't. The very words of Paul indicate that, as he wrote his letter to the believers at Rome, he was in a daily battle between the "Law of Sin in his members" and the "Law of his mind" that was devoted to God's Law. There is nothing in his language in Romans 7:14-24 that suggests he was speaking of a past resolved circumstance. And this is why you haven't shown otherwise from the text of Romans 7:14-24.

Nothing but the answers to his Rom 7 plaints were written in Rom 6 and Rom 8.

Paul's "plaint" didn't disappear but it did find a solution - one that he (and every believer) would have to embrace and live in, by faith, every day. Until his physical death, or Christ's Second Coming, Paul would only be free of the power and penalty of sin, not its presence. As he explained to the believers in the province of Galatia,

Galatians 5:17 (NASB)
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

This is a constant state-of-affairs for every born-again believer, the flesh and the Spirit at odds within them and producing the sort of condition Paul described in Romans 7:14-24. But the solution to this inner struggle is to do as Paul taught in Romans 8 and live always under the control of the Holy Spirit, to "walk by the Spirit," not just "live by the Spirit," which is merely to be born-again (Galatians 5:16, 25).

Romans 8:12-14 (NASB)
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh—
13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.
14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

See? Paul's solution to the war between the flesh and the Holy Spirit is submission to the Spirit (ie. - "being led by the Spirit") by which the transforming power of the Spirit is able to work freely within the believer, putting to death their flesh anew each day. This is another way of describing "walking in the Spirit" (as opposed to just living in him, as most believers do). This is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 6. In the chapter, Paul went on at length describing the life of submission in which every believer is to live by faith:

Romans 6:13-22 (NASB)
13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.

Paul is speaking here to born-again believers who were not living as "slaves of righteousness," as "living sacrifices" to God (Romans 12:1). Obviously, if they had been living as "slaves of righteousness," Paul would not have had to comment on the subject. They weren't, and so, Paul had to urge the born-again believers at Rome to live as those "enslaved to God," as those who, by constant submission to the Holy Spirit, would be "walking in/by him" and thus able to "put to death the deeds of the body," moving, more and more, into a truly sanctified life (Romans 6:19, 22).

But, again, this is a condition in which the born-again believer, by faith, must choose to live in every day. Any other way of walking with God is of the flesh and breeds ultimately only corruption and death of some kind (Galatians 6:7-8; Romans 8:5-8).

It is a bit of a horror to me to see how far from this spiritual living that is so clearly laid out in God's word that you are, Hopeful. I hope and pray God will open your eyes to the truth of real Christian living, of walking in/by the Spirit, which is the only way to really enjoy daily fellowship with God (1 Corinthians 1:9; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 John 1:3).

Does having "opened eyes" mean I must return to committing sin?
I pass.

 

[07/07/07]

Born again believers still sin. That does not mean they are not born again. It means they still have flesh bodies from which sin comes from in the born again person.

Please explain what sins the born again can continue to commit? Using the Word of course to explain.

 

[07/07/07]

Hmm. Wonder why Peter didn't take the way of escape from the condemnation of his sin of hypocrisy. Guess he wasn't born again.

I do not see Peter's actions as willful sin, but rather poor discretion in that moment of time. I am sure Peter reflected on this situation afterward to tweak his character in future situations. There's a difference between our faults and willful sin.

 

[Tenchi]

Nothing but the answers to his Rom 7 plaints were written in Rom 6 and Rom 8.

Right. But the answer was not an all-perfected moral state of being, but walking in the Spirit in daily submission and being progressively transformed thereby, growing in Christ-likeness over time.

Ephesians 4:13-15 (NASB)
13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

1 Peter 2:2 (NASB)
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Colossians 2:19 (NASB)
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

1 Corinthians 14:20 (NASB)
20 Brethren, do not be children in your thinking; yet in evil be infants, but in your thinking be mature.

Hebrews 5:12-14 (NASB)
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

All of these verses/passages speak of a process of growth toward spiritual maturity. But if such growth exists, it is a necessary corollary that there is a spectrum of change the born-again believer traverses from spiritual infancy and its attendant "milk-drinker" carnality (1 Corinthians 3:1-3) to spiritually-mature, Spirit-controlled "meat-eater." Along, then, with what I've already pointed out from the apostle Paul, your sinless-perfection belief is clearly false.

Does having "opened eyes" mean I must return to committing sin?
I pass.

You have never left off committing sin - though, perhaps, you sin less often than you used to and in ways that are less obvious to an onlooker. But sin you do; and you're certain to continue in sin, believing falsely as you do that you are sinless. In fact, in the act of declaring yourself sinless, you call God a liar and make of yourself a liar, as the apostle John explained. Both of these things are, of course, sin.

1 John 1:8-10 (NASB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

 

[justbyfaith]

Along, then, with what I've already pointed out from the apostle Paul, your sinless-perfection belief is clearly false.

Read the same verses in the kjv and you have your answer.

 

[justbyfaith]

8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.

This, of course, is not speaking of practical sin, but of indwelling sin (see Romans 7:18).

Otherwise it is in contradiction with what is in the immediate context of the book, in 1 John 3:4-9.

The element of indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (nlt)).

 

[Tenchi]

Read the same verses in the kjv and you have your answer.

I memorize exclusively in the KJV; I was brought up reading it; I know what it says very well. And nothing in the translation offers anything in genuine rebuttal to what I've explained. But, I realize that there is nothing more than these deflective answers that you can offer, since I've had this same conversation over the years with many sinless-perfection types and encountered in them the same easily-punctured "balloon" of error.

 

[justbyfaith]

In fact, in the act of declaring yourself sinless, you call God a liar and make of yourself a liar,

I am certainly not declaring myself to be sinless. I have indwelling sin.

That is not the same as saying that I am bound to commit sin at any time in the future.

Sin can be rendered dead.

"sinless perfection" is a misnomer that is often applied to the doctrine of entire sanctification in order to create a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:8.

However, "entire sanctification" as a doctrine, does not proclaim that sin is eradicated from us, so that we are without sin; rather, it declares that the element of sin within us is rendered dead so that we aren't controlled by it any longer; and that therefore we can walk in freedom and victory, in righteousness and holiness, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

 

[justbyfaith]

I memorize exclusively in the KJV; I was brought up reading it; I know what it says very well. And nothing in the translation offers anything in genuine rebuttal to what I've explained. But, I realize that there is nothing more than these deflective answers that you can offer, since I've had this same conversation over the years with many sinless-perfection types and encountered in them the same easily-punctured "balloon" of error.

Except that the kjv translates as "perfect" what your translation translates as "mature".

That is enough of a difference to make one think.

 

[justbyfaith]

Please explain what sins the born again can continue to commit? Using the Word of course to explain.

Failing to wear tzitzit and tallit; or to blow the chofar on the new moon.

Of course, that is the letter of the law (see Galatians 6:13).

The spirit of the law is spoken of in Romans 7:6, Romans 8:4.

 

[justbyfaith]

Gal 5:17, For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This can be interpreted by going to Romans 7:14-25, if you want a defeatist attitude.

I would say that it can also be interpreted by going to 1 John 3:9.

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Paul is speaking here to born-again believers who were not living as "slaves of righteousness," as "living sacrifices" to God (Romans 12:1). Obviously, if they had been living as "slaves of righteousness," Paul would not have had to comment on the subject. They weren't, and so, Paul had to urge the born-again believers at Rome to live as those "enslaved to God," as those who, by constant submission to the Holy Spirit, would be "walking in/by him" and thus able to "put to death the deeds of the body," moving, more and more, into a truly sanctified life

Paul, in writing the book to the Romans, knew that all roads led to Rome and that therefore all roads would lead from Rome.

He wrote Romans as a treaty on doctrine to the body of Christ throughout the ages.

You can be certain that he knew that within his audience were people who were not born again believers, who yet thought that they were; but the fact that they are not is evidenced by the fact that they obey the flesh and do not even pay attention to the Spirit when determining what their behaviour is going to be.

And he also, in Romans 6, in speaking to believers, speaks of the fact that they are slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18, Romans 6:20) and that they were (past tense) slaves of sin.

 

[Free]

Born again believers still sin. That does not mean they are not born again. It means they still have flesh bodies from which sin comes from in the born again person.

This really should go without saying.

 

[justbyfaith]

This really should go without saying.

It should go without saying that believers in Christ are most certainly able to walk consistently, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of their lives.

Scripture:

Romans 6:14, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)...

Luke 1:74-75.