Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[Tenchi]

I am certainly not declaring myself to be sinless. I have indwelling sin.

That is not the same as saying that I am bound to commit sin at any time in the future.

Sin can be rendered dead.

"sinless perfection" is a misnomer that is often applied to the doctrine of entire sanctification in order to create a straw man that is easily toppled by 1 John 1:9.

However, "entire sanctification" as a doctrine, does not proclaim that sin is eradicated from us, so that we are without sin; rather, it declares that the element of sin within us is rendered dead so that we aren't controlled by it any longer; and that therefore we can walk in freedom and victory, in righteousness and holiness, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

Well, you replied to a post I made to @Hopeless who does, as far as I can tell, subscribe to a sinless perfection view. I'm glad to know you don't follow his unbiblical thinking.

I take what Paul has written in several instances in his various letters to be true, which is that "sin has no more dominion over me" (Romans 6:14) Why? Because my "old man" (Romans 6:6), the person I am apart from God - fleshly, selfish, prideful and rebellious - has been rendered powerless upon Christ's cross. From my "old man," governed by the Adamic nature, arises all of my sin but, as a born-again person, I have been crucified with Christ that the body of sin might be destroyed that, henceforth I should not serve sin" (Romans 6:6; ; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Colossians 3:1-4, etc.).

Do I believe that I can walk in a progressively fuller experience of this spiritual reality? Absolutely. And I do. But the more I do, and the more clearly God comes into view as a result (Hebrews 12:14b), the more I realize just how much, and how deeply, sin has intruded into every region of my life. Really, what complete (aka - perfect) sanctification is cannot be known, I think, by me, or any human being, who all live so comfortably in, and so fully-saturated by, sin. But we can be far less sinful than the average modern believer thinks, that's for sure!

 

[justbyfaith]

This really should go without saying.

Also, there is that thing called "remission of sins" that can be obtained by fulfilling the condition to a promise...

And it goes without saying that those who have not fulfilled that condition also do not believe in remission of sins.

Because they haven't experienced it in their own lives.

 

[Free]

It should go without saying that believers in Christ are most certainly able to walk consistently, not after the flesh but after the Spirit for an extended period of time; even for the rest of their lives.

Scripture:

Romans 6:14, Romans 8:4, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)...

Luke 1:74-75.

Also, there is that thing called "remission of sins" that can be obtained by fulfilling the condition to a promise...

And it goes without saying that those who have not fulfilled that condition also do not believe in remission of sins.

Because they haven't experienced it in their own lives.

We will sin till we die or Christ returns because it is in our nature to do so. We are being renewed but won't fully be renewed until we are transformed. I prefer to agree with John that anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived and doesn't have the truth (1 John 1:8).

 

[justbyfaith]

We will sin till we die or Christ returns because it is in our nature to do so. We are being renewed but won't fully be renewed until we are transformed. I prefer to agree with John that anyone who claims to be without sin is self-deceived and doesn't have the truth (1 John 1:8).

I have already addressed 1 John 1:8.

 

[Free]

I have already addressed 1 John 1:8.

I haven't seen it. But it is quite plain and clear what he means.

 

[justbyfaith]

I haven't seen it. But it is quite plain and clear what he means.

post #332 (https://christianforums.net/threads...sin-and-remain-a-christian.97836/post-1784272) and #334 (https://christianforums.net/threads...sin-and-remain-a-christian.97836/post-1784277).

 

[Tenchi]

He wrote Romans as a treaty on doctrine to the body of Christ throughout the ages.

I doubt that Paul thought this way in writing his letter to the believers at Rome. He certainly gave no indication that I'm aware of that he considered his letter a "treaty on doctrine to the Body of Christ throughout the ages."

You can be certain that he knew that within his audience were people who were not born again believers, who yet thought that they were; but the fact that they are not is evidenced by the fact that they obey the flesh and do not even pay attention to the Spirit when determining what their behaviour is going to be.

I agree that Paul understood that the Church had false brethren within it. But Romans 6 does not use language that suggests that Paul had such people in view. In fact, the spiritual realities he described in the chapter could not be true of a false convert. So, again, his words were directed at genuine believers who were ignorant of (and so, failing to live in) the spiritual truths he described, which kiboshes the notion of sinless perfection.

And he also, in Romans 6, in speaking to believers, speaks of the fact that they are slaves of righteousness (Romans 6:18, Romans 6:20) and that they were (past tense) slaves of sin.

Right.

 

[Free]

post #332 (https://christianforums.net/threads...sin-and-remain-a-christian.97836/post-1784272) and #334 (https://christianforums.net/threads...sin-and-remain-a-christian.97836/post-1784277).

I really don't understand the difference in what you're saying.

"I am certainly not declaring myself to be sinless. I have indwelling sin.

That is not the same as saying that I am bound to commit sin at any time in the future."

It seems you are making a distinction that John is not making. His statements are pretty straightforward:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

No believer is without sin and cannot live without sinning. That is what John is addressing. That is why he writes what he does in verses 9 and 2:1:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we have an advocate with the Father.

 

[justbyfaith]

I doubt that Paul thought this way in writing his letter to the believers at Rome. He certainly gave no indication that I'm aware of that he considered his letter a "treaty on doctrine to the Body of Christ throughout the ages."

The Holy Spirit is ultimately the author of Romans.

And I am certain that in inspiring the book, He had it in mind that it would be a "treaty on doctrine to the body of Christ throughout the ages; for that is exactly what it has turned out to be.

I agree that Paul understood that the Church had false brethren within it. But Romans 6 does not use language that suggests that Paul had such people in view. In fact, the spiritual realities he described in the chapter could not be true of a false convert. So, again, his words were directed at genuine believers who were ignorant of (and so, failing to live in) the spiritual truths he described, which kiboshes the notion of sinless perfection.

Paul very likely spoke of "entire sanctification" as being a "second benefit" in 1 Corinthians 1:15 (I use this as an evidentiary text and not as a proof text).

Therefore, he would have been proclaiming that, while not all believers have this benefit, that it is a benefit that is possible to obtain (the benefit spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, and 1 John 3:9)

Right.

Glad you agree.

 

[Tenchi]

This, of course, is not speaking of practical sin, but of indwelling sin (see Romans 7:18).

Is this a distinction the apostle John made? Not that I'm aware of.

Otherwise it is in contradiction with what is in the immediate context of the book, in 1 John 3:4-9.

Remarks two chapters removed are not what I'd call "immediate context." Anyway, better translations of 1 John 3:4-9 than the KJV offers correctly indicate a progressive, on-going practice of sin characterizing the unregenerate person:

1 John 3:4-9 (NASB)
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Since John wrote here of an on-going practice of sin, I don't see a conflict with his earlier statements at the end of 1 John 1.

The element of indwelling sin can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over your behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (nlt)).

As I see it, sin is the by-product, the fruit, of the "old man" not being reckoned crucified with Christ. Sin does not exist as a discrete causal entity wielding power in peoples' lives.

 

[justbyfaith]

I really don't understand the difference in what you're saying.

"I am certainly not declaring myself to be sinless. I have indwelling sin.

That is not the same as saying that I am bound to commit sin at any time in the future."

It seems you are making a distinction that John is not making. His statements are pretty straightforward:

1Jn 1:8 If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (ESV)

No believer is without sin and cannot live without sinning. That is what John is addressing. That is why he writes what he does in verses 9 and 2:1:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)

He knows that living sinless in this life just isn't possible and that is why we have an advocate with the Father.

Concerning practical sins, of course John, later in the book (1 John 3:4-9; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17) addresses the fact that those who are born of God do not and cannot sin.

This may in fact be hyperbole on John's part...exaggeration to make a point.

What point?

That, when we are born again, we have made a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, hell, and satan, towards righteousness, life, heaven, and God. So we are walking in a new direction.

As it is written,

Pro 4:18, But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.

 

[Tenchi]

The Holy Spirit is ultimately the author of Romans.

And I am certain that in inspiring the book, He had it in mind that it would be a "treaty on doctrine to the body of Christ throughout the ages; for that is exactly what it has turned out to be.

I made no comment on what God intended to do through Paul's writings, only on what Paul had clearly in mind as he wrote Romans 6.

 

[justbyfaith]

Remarks two chapters removed are not what I'd call "immediate context." Anyway, better translations of 1 John 3:4-9 correctly indicate a progressive, on-going practice of sin characterizing the unregenerate person:

1 John 3:4-9 (NASB)
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.
7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.
9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Since John wrote here of an on-going practice of sin, I don't see a conflict with his earlier statements at the end of 1 John 1.

I have a question for you.

If you commit a sin, then confess it, and commit it again two weeks later, then you confess it, and then commit it again two weeks later, and this continues down throughout your life, are you not practicing sin?

Secondly, is such a thing your experience?

 

[justbyfaith]

I made no comment on what God intended to do through Paul's writings, only on what Paul had clearly in mind as he wrote Romans 6.

The question you should be asking is, What did the Holy Spirit have in mind when He wrote that chapter?

 

[justbyfaith]

Is this a distinction the apostle John made? Not that I'm aware of.

Yes, it is. In 1 John 1:8 he speaks of saying that you "have" no sin...not of saying that you "do" no sin.

Later on in the book, he teaches clearly that concerning the doing of sin, it is simply not the practice of a born again believer.

Remarks two chapters removed are not what I'd call "immediate context."

same book, same immediate context.

As I see it, sin is the by-product, the fruit, of the "old man" not being reckoned crucified with Christ. Sin does not exist as a discrete causal entity wielding power in peoples' lives.

Take another look at Romans 7:14-25.

 

[Tenchi]

I have a question for you.

If you commit a sin, then confess it, and commit it again two weeks later, then you confess it, and then commit it again two weeks later, and this continues down throughout your life, are you not practicing sin?

Secondly, is such a thing your experience?

Well, I would respond with both Romans 7:14-24 and Paul's remarks at the beginning of Romans 6. He clearly believed that Christians could be "living in sin that grace may abound" and wrestling with the "law of sin in their members" and failing. His criticisms of the believers in Corinth also make this clear, in particular his description of them as "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1). Rather than connect their sinfulness to being unregenerate, Paul links it to their spiritual immaturity.

Have I lived in spiritual ignorance and immaturity and the inevitable sinfulness that results? Yup. But never with ease; never without a sense of disjunction between me and God that I wanted to correct; and certainly never without my Heavenly Father's discipline.

You?

 

[Tenchi]

The question you should be asking is, What did the Holy Spirit have in mind when He wrote that chapter?

Mmmm..no. False dichotomy.

 

[Tenchi]

Take another look at Romans 7:14-25.

No need. I know the passage well. And my remark on it stands.

 

[Free]

Concerning practical sins, of course John, later in the book (1 John 3:4-9; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17) addresses the fact that those who are born of God do not and cannot sin.

This may in fact be hyperbole on John's part...exaggeration to make a point.

It isn’t hyperbole. John has already said that believers sin and anyone who claims to be without is self-deceived, doesn’t have the truth, and makes God a liar and his word isn’t in them. So, who John is speaking of in 1 John 3:4-10 are those who live a willfully sinful lifestyle, those whose lives are characterized by sin.

1Jn 3:4 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.
1Jn 3:5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.
1Jn 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother. (ESV)

What point?

That, when we are born again, we have made a 180-degree turn away from sin, death, hell, and satan, towards righteousness, life, heaven, and God. So we are walking in a new direction.

That is true but it doesn’t mean we won’t or are incapable of sinning.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, I would respond with both Romans 7:14-24 and Paul's remarks at the beginning of Romans 6. He clearly believed that Christians could be "living in sin that grace may abound" and wrestling with the "law of sin in their members" and failing. His criticisms of the believers in Corinth also make this clear, in particular his description of them as "carnal babes in Christ" (1 Corinthians 3:1). Rather than connect their sinfulness to being unregenerate, Paul links it to their spiritual immaturity.

Have I lived in spiritual ignorance and immaturity and the inevitable sinfulness that results? Yup. But never with ease; never without a sense of disjunction between me and God that I wanted to correct; and certainly never without my Heavenly Father's discipline.

You?

I believe that Romans 7:14-25 is Paul and the Holy Ghost using a literary tactic called IDENTIFICATION in order to identify who is carnal in order that he might win the carnal person to Christ (see 1 Corinthians 9:22).

If he were actually carnal when writing the passage, he would not have been a penner of holy scripture (see 2 Peter 1:21).

Those who are carnal are those who profess belief in Christ; however their faith is nominal, shallow, or lukewarm and I would say that they are not saved by it. I can make a case for this scripturally if you'd like.