Elaborate please.
You really need to re-read the passage with the concept in mind of whether or not it teaches that sin is an indwelling factor that we can be obedient to or else deny. For it is clearly taught in that scripture.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?
Elaborate please.
You really need to re-read the passage with the concept in mind of whether or not it teaches that sin is an indwelling factor that we can be obedient to or else deny. For it is clearly taught in that scripture.
see here (https://christianforums.net/threads...sin-and-remain-a-christian.97836/post-1784328).
See above link.
If it continues throughout one’s life, then likely there is no true repentance. That isn’t to say that Christians can’t or don’t fall into habitual sin, because they do, but it’s how they respond. The danger is if there is no conviction of sin from the Holy Spirit. One cannot have the Holy Spirit and not even convicted of sin.
The doctrine of "entire sanctification" is good news to those who are making the same statement as Paul in Romans 7:24.
Why then do so many people reject it?
Is it not because they do not have the attitude of being discontented with sin as Paul says ought to be the attitude of the believer in that verse?
And I think that what you just said above is that if there is true repentance, habitual sin is not going to continue in a person's life.
My question to you is, do you believe that a person can be saved without repentance?
The Holy Spirit convicts the world (not believers) of sin and righteousness and judgment (John 16:8).
Believers are in the world but not of it (John 17:15-16).
The Holy Spirit is either with a man, or upon a man, or in a man.
If He is with a man, then conviction is prevalent. This speaks of everyone that is of the world.
But He convicts
"of sin, because they do not believe in me." (John 16:9)
Jethro Bodine
Member
You would think so.
I would have never imagined the day when some people in the church would insist they have been perfectly sinless since the moment they believed.
Another thing that needs to be corrected in the church is this statement that "condemnation is of the devil".
What certain "Christians" are referring to here is the conviction of the Holy Spirit, of judgment.
Jhn 16:8, And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9, Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 16:10, Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jhn 16:11, Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
What certain "Christians" are referring to here is the conviction of the Holy Spirit, of judgment.
Jhn 16:8, And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Jhn 16:9, Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Jhn 16:10, Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Jhn 16:11, Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
"perfectly sinless" is a misnomer that you are portraying in order to create a straw man.
"entire sanctification" doesn't teach "sinless perfection".
Get your doctrine right.
Jethro Bodine
Member
No.
It would be strange if the Holy Spirit only convicted the world of sin and not believers, especially since the Holy Spirit is the one who brings Christ's work to bear on us, helps us "put to death the deeds of the body" (Rom 8:13), guides us into truth, dwells in and fills us, sanctifies us, and enables us to walk by the Spirit and produce the fruit of the Spirit. To not prick a believer's conscience when he or she is sinning and leave it up to the believe to figure it out would be strange indeed and not consistent with all the work the Holy Spirit does in the life of believers.
"Entire sanctification, also known as Christian perfectionism or sometimes sinless perfection, is the teaching that a Christian can reach such a state of holiness that he or she ceases to sin in this life."
https://www.gotquestions.org/entire-sanctification.html
Who's right, you or Got Questions?
I'm pretty sure that Jesus is saying, in John 16:9, that the Holy Spirit only has to convict unbelievers; because believers have repented and are seeking by His word to be obedient to the scriptures; they are therefore obedient to the word of the Lord and conviction of sin is not something that the Holy Spirit has to do with them.
Because their hearts are not rebellious as are the hearts of unbelievers.
In Hebrews 10:1-3, it becomes clear that because the blood of goats and bulls doesn't take away sins, the sacrificing of them every year was a reminder of sin. Now we have the sacrifice of Jesus; which does take away sins (1 John 3:5); therefore those who have been purged do not any longer have any consciousness of sins.
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I didn't read the entire article.
But I will say that if it is saying that entire sanctification means that sin is eradicated from the flesh, that they have it wrong. From a quick glimpse at the article I ascertain that they are not saying that.
Yes, entire sanctification is sometimes known as sinless perfection; however it is a misnomer that is applied to the doctrine by its opponents in order to create a straw man argument that is easily defeated by 1 John 1:8.
The actual, biblical, doctrine is not so easily defeated, however.
For it does not declare that sin is eradicated from the body; but that indwelling sin is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) within the flesh so that it no longer has any authority over the behaviour of the Christian saint / holy one (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:`12 (kjv, nlt)).
So, yes, entire sanctification teaches that we can cease from sinning in this life; that sinning is not inevitable (Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)) because we are not obligated to obey the flesh; and that therefore we can walk in victory and freedom, in righteousness and in holiness, not after the flesh but after the Spirit, for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).
The people at Gotquestions.org are even human and can have it wrong sometimes.
They don't have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit.
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See all of my posts in this thread.
There, I explain the reality of entire sanctification, that it is not the same as sinless perfection; while it does speak of the fact that you can walk in victory and freedom over a sinful lifestyle and even be completely victorious before the rapture and before you die.
As, in the case of Ephesians 5:27, when Christ returns, He is coming back for a glorious church that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.
The question one might ask is, will everyone reach that goal in the same moment or will some reach it before others without dying in the process?
I think that some will reach that goal before others and that they will be examples to the world of what it means to be a born again Christian.
Too many unbelievers reject Christ because of hypocrisy in the church; and that hypocrisy is due largely to the idea in the hearts of believers that they cannot be perfect and therefore are not accountable to being perfect.
Heb 10:1, For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3, But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 1:3, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 10:12, But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:2, For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3, But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
Heb 10:4, For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Heb 1:3, Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
1Jo 3:5, And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
Heb 10:12, But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Heb 10:14, For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
I would even go as far as to say here, that they are teachers that are heaped by people with itching ears to tell them what they want to hear (2 Timothy 4:3); at least in this specific case of teaching by them.
Tenchi
Member
1 John 1:8-10 (NASB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.
John made what he meant in verse 8 quite clear in what he wrote in verses 9 and 10. He did not mean a principle of sin, but sins committed that required confession. Making this doubly clear, he went on to write about the falsity of saying, not that one was possessed of a sin-principle, but of saying one had not committed sinful acts ("sinned" is a verb, not a noun).
Not in a spiritually-healthy believer, no, it's not. But as Paul's letters reveal, even the Early Church was filled with truly born-again people who were spiritually immature, ignorant of Christian doctrine, and afflicted with false teachers. As a consequence, in his letters, he had to do a great deal of teaching, and criticizing, and even discipline of his fellow brothers and sisters in the Lord.
Tenchi
Member
Okay. I don't.
Struggling with sin and sometimes failing to overcome it is not being carnal; it is an unavoidable part of spiritual growth. To see what carnality actually looks like consider: 1 Corinthians 3:1-4, Galatians 5:19-21, 2 Peter 2 or Jude 1:1-16. Paul's description of his struggle with sin, with his flesh, is nothing like what these passages outline. Anyway, sinlessness is not necessary to communicating divine truth (or any truth, for that matter). "Jesus is the Way, the Truth and Life" is true even if it is Hitler saying so.
1 Corinthians 1:27-29 (NASB)
27 but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,
28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,
29 so that no man may boast before God.
Yes, I know what Jesus was saying, which is why I didn’t appeal to it but rather to the working of the Holy Spirit in the e life of believers. The Holy Spirit convicts believers of sin, which is how we become aware of it so that we can confess it and be forgiven and purified.
I don’t see what this has to do with our discussion.
Exactly.