Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[justbyfaith]

Peter was sinning, plain and simple.

That is actually disputable.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Is it a sin to put away the special dishes until visitors show up?
It shows your love for the normal family is hypocritical because they don't seem to be worthy of the good dishes.
Please answer the question.
Is it hypocritical and a sin to do favors for visitors that you don't do for the regulars in your life?

Read the passage. He was sinfully withdrawing from the gentiles out of fear of the Jews. What he did had nothing to do with doing a favor for the Jews. He was afraid of being persecuted. And by doing so he was setting a sinful example for, both, the Jews, and the gentiles! And Paul called him out on it. Just as you need to be called out for deceitfully handling the passage to defend your erroneous doctrine of sinless perfection.

 

[justbyfaith]

Read the passage. He was sinfully withdrawing from the gentiles out of fear of the Jews. What he did had nothing to do with doing a favor for the Jews. He was afraid of being persecuted. And by doing so he was setting a sinful example for, both, the Jews, and the gentiles! And Paul called him out on it. Just as you need to be called out for deceitfully handling the passage to defend your erroneous doctrine of sinless perfection.

It says that he feared them, which is not exactly the same thing as being afraid of them. It could mean that he was considering their scruples and catering to them. Which is in line with biblical obedience on the part of Peter (Romans 14, 1 Corinthians 8).

Also, while Hopeful may be dealing out a doctrine of sinless perfection (which I can substantiate biblically while I do not tow the line of preaching it), I am dealing out the doctrine of "entire sanctification".

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not see Peter's actions as willful sin, but rather poor discretion in that moment of time. I am sure Peter reflected on this situation afterward to tweak his character in future situations. There's a difference between our faults and willful sin.

I'm sure he didn't do it on purpose either. He was scared. Christians don't willingly choose to live in sin. They fall into it because of fear, and ignorance, and things like that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

"perfectly sinless" is a misnomer that you are portraying in order to create a straw man.

Nooo...one form or another of sinless perfection is being pushed here. Hopeful has the most radical and outrageous doctrine of sinless perfection. He says all genuinely born again people will cease to sin from the moment they believe and will never sin again or else they are not really a believer. Yours is just a variation on a theme.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I am dealing out the doctrine of "entire sanctification".

Yes, I understand that. So, there's no reason to make it so Peter was not sinning in Galatians 2:11-14.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Also, while @Hopeful may be dealing out a doctrine of sinless perfection (which I can substantiate biblically while I do not tow the line of preaching it)

You need to be aware that he believes that the true believer will stop sinning forever the moment they believe, and if they don't it shows they're not really a believer. Are you saying you can substantiate that, Biblically? Even if you thought you could before, surely you can see through the example of Peter that simply is not a valid doctrine. That's a doctrine of the Pharisees.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

See all of my posts in this thread.

There, I explain the reality of entire sanctification, that it is not the same as sinless perfection; while it does speak of the fact that you can walk in victory and freedom over a sinful lifestyle and even be completely victorious before the rapture and before you die.

I do not rule out the possibility that after much training and correction by God that a believer can mature to a place of not sinning anymore.

What I categorically reject is the belief that true Christians never sin from the moment they believe. That is a joke.

 

[justbyfaith]

What I categorically reject is the belief that true Christians never sin from the moment they believe.

true Christians do not have to sin and do not want to sin (and therefore, they cannot sin) from the moment that they repent and receive the Holy Ghost.

Not because they couldn't go down that path if they wanted to; but because they do not want to and do not have to go down that path.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

As, in the case of Ephesians 5:27, when Christ returns, He is coming back for a glorious church that is without spot or wrinkle or any such thing.

All believers are without spot or wrinkle because of the continuous application of Christ's ministry and sacrifice that the believer is trusting in.

The only thing that can make a Christian have "spot or wrinkle" is for them to shrink back into unbelief and a lifestyle of willing, deliberate, careless sin.

The question one might ask is, will everyone reach that goal in the same moment or will some reach it before others without dying in the process?

It should be obvious from the evidence that most believers will not live long enough to complete God's training process. But it doesn't matter because all the sins they have committed as believers do not exist on the books of heaven because they got wiped away the moment they committed them by the blood of Christ they believe and trust in.

I think that some will reach that goal before others and that they will be examples to the world of what it means to be a born again Christian.

I've never met one. On line or off line.
I'm confident they are very, very rare and most likely very elderly and are not readily seen and observed.

Too many unbelievers reject Christ because of hypocrisy in the church; and that hypocrisy is due largely to the idea in the hearts of believers that they cannot be perfect and therefore are not accountable to being perfect.

I do not believe for a minute that my or anyone else's behavior or influence can keep a person from being saved that would otherwise have been saved. God will not let someone not have the chance to believe that he knows will believe if just given the chance.

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you saying you can substantiate that, Biblically?

yes; and I have done so in this thread.

here (https://christianforums.net/threads...sin-and-remain-a-christian.97836/post-1784683).

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes, I understand that. So, there's no reason to make it so Peter was not sinning in Galatians 2:11-14.

Nevertheless, it is clear to me that he wasn't.

 

[justbyfaith]

Nooo...one form or another of sinless perfection is being pushed here. Hopeful has the most radical and outrageous doctrine of sinless perfection. He says all genuinely born again people will cease to sin from the moment they believe and will never sin again or else they are not really a believer. Yours is just a variation on a theme.

"sinless" perfection does not describe the doctrine of entire sanctification that I believe in.

The doctrine does not purport that sin is eradicated from us; so that we are without sin, i.e. sinless.

It states that the element of sin, indwelling us, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)).

 

[justbyfaith]

All believers are without spot or wrinkle because of the continuous application of Christ's ministry and sacrifice that the believer is trusting in.

The only thing that can make a Christian have "spot or wrinkle" is for them to shrink back into unbelief and a lifestyle of willing, deliberate, careless sin.

So, you are saying that every believer is sanctified wholly in the practical sense?

I've never met one. On line or off line.
I'm confident they are very, very rare and most likely very elderly and are not readily seen and observed.

Yes, most of the ones that I have seen have been elderly and did not boast about the work that the Lord had done in them.

I do not believe for a minute that my or anyone else's behavior or influence can keep a person from being saved that would otherwise have been saved. God will not let someone not have the chance to believe that he knows will believe if just given the chance.

People use people who are hypocritical as an excuse not to believe in Christ.

The hypocrisy of such believers tells these people that there is no reality to Christ.

"If Christ were real," they say, "then He would make your life what the Bible says it is supposed to be."

"Since He doesn't do that in your life, I don't believe that He is real."

It's kind of like C.S. Lewis' proposition, that Jesus was the greatest moral teacher who ever lived; but He claimed to be God.

Because of this last thing, He is either a lunatic on the level of someone who thinks he is a poached egg; or He is a liar with the deceptive capabilities of the devil himself; or else He is the Lord of all.

Hypocrisy in the church opens up the possibility that He is a deceiver.

For it is written,

1Jo 2:29, If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Therefore, if one can be born of Him and yet not be a doer of righteousness, it allows an onlooking person to not know that He is righteous.

If it can be proven that He is not righteous, then you can be certain that the devil will even bring up scripture to say that he himself is Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Clearly, you aren't even trying to consider what I'm saying. Why, then, continue to discuss this matter with me? You won't be changing my mind, that's for sure, so I think we'll have to agree to disagree and leave it at that. I certainly have no more I wish to say to you on this topic

Too bad...

This is so silly. You have no idea, really, what "perfect" is, objectively and practically. And the idea that you can build on perfection is nonsensical. One cannot add to perfection.

Then we cannot grow in grace and knowledge.

'Round and 'round we go... Your repetition of your erroneous ideas won't alter my views one iota. Only a better handling of Scripture and basic reason than you've offered will change my perspective.

You gotta' ask yourself...Are you walking in the light-God? Or are you walking in darkness-sin?
We can't do both.

 

[Hopeful]

Both are true but not in the way you say. All these verses apply to believers, including John, the apostles, and whomever else was in ministry with them, as I have shown. To suggest the one verse applies to unbelievers when there is no basis for doing so, does violence to the text. What John means in verse 7 by "cleanses us from all sin," is expanded upon in verse 9 and in 2:1.

What you affirm then, is that believers walk in darkness.
I can't agree.

1Jn 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. (ESV)
Note that in 2:1, which clearly ties into what he just said in chapter 1 (it is one continuous letter, after all), John refers to those he is writing to as "My little children." This is not a term for unbelievers, but a term of affection for believers that are likely his spiritual children.

The "anyone" are those who have not yet availed themselves of the Advocate.
Those in Christ, have already done that.

As I pointed out previously, "we," "our," and "us" are consistent from 1:1. It cannot be more clear that John considers himself and all believers as sinners that need to confess their sins continually before God.

You keep over-looking the "IF".
IF we walk in darkness we cannot say we have fellowship with God or that we have no sin.
IF we walk in the light, we can say we have fellowship with God and that we have no sin.
The light is God, and the darkness is sin.
There is no sin in God.

 

[Hopeful]

He was not catering to their weak consciences. He was afraid of them.

Could it not have been a little bit of both?

 

[Hopeful]

"sinless" perfection does not describe the doctrine of entire sanctification that I believe in.

The doctrine does not purport that sin is eradicated from us; so that we are without sin, i.e. sinless.

Doesn't that POV nullify rebirth from God's seed?
How can God's seed bring forth someone with "indwelling sin"?

It states that the element of sin, indwelling us, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)).

It can be rendered dead by the destruction of the old man, (Rom 6:6), and being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

 

[Hopeful]

Read the passage. He was sinfully withdrawing from the gentiles out of fear of the Jews. What he did had nothing to do with doing a favor for the Jews. He was afraid of being persecuted. And by doing so he was setting a sinful example for, both, the Jews, and the gentiles! And Paul called him out on it. Just as you need to be called out for deceitfully handling the passage to defend your erroneous doctrine of sinless perfection.

Though that isn't actually written, I have no doubt that Peter did fear the allegedly believing Jewish visitors.
I often wonder how Peter came to be so subservient to the Pharisees and priests that joined the church.
It almost seems like they took over!
It sure showed up after he converted Cornelius' household and returned to Jerusalem.
I would rather make excuses for a man that can't defend himself than accuse the Lord's apostle of sin.

 

[Hopeful]

Also, while Hopeful may be dealing out a doctrine of sinless perfection (which I can substantiate biblically while I do not tow the line of preaching it), I am dealing out the doctrine of "entire sanctification".

What is your definition of the word "sanctified"?