it actually starts when the repentance from sins is true.
Turning from sin creates ex-sinners.
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?
Turning from sin creates ex-sinners.
You haven't added "rebirth" to your recipe.
I already told you....it is when the element of sin within us is rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any say over our behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)).
The result being that we do not commit sin any longer.
The descriptions of sanctification I have found consist of...atoned for, set apart, consecrated, made holy, blessed, hallowed, and cleansed.
The application of the Lamb of God's blood accomplish all of that.
Consider.
Rom 6:10, For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11, Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
v.10 is qualified by 2 Corinthians 5:21. How did Jesus die unto sin? The answer is: He became sin for us...
In v.11 we are to likewise reckon ourselves to be dead indeed unto sin...that is, utterly sinful in the flesh (Romans 8:3)...
Of course, there is this...
Rom 6:7, For he that is dead is freed from sin.
So, in that we are dead, we are set free from sin...but in that we are (likewise) dead indeed unto sin...we become one with sin.
This is a mystery.
But the reality is that, when we reckon ourselves to be one with sin, and yet freed from sin, this is where true freedom arises.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Repentance does not mean sinlessness. You can see how Paul uses the word to show that repentance is a change of mind about sin, a renunciation of sin, not the absence of sin, for he exhorts people to have deeds appropriate to their repentance, their change of mind about sin (Acts 26:20).
G3341 - metanoia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)
G3341 - μετάνοια metánoia, met-an'-oy-ah; from ; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):—repentance.
www.blueletterbible.org
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Jethro Bodine
Member
All believers who have received the gospel, retaining it in their hearts are saved, born again people - John 5:24.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
You don't have to accuse Peter of sin. Paul did that for us.
Jethro Bodine
Member
There's nothing "allegedly" about it. It plainly says he withdrew from the gentiles for fear of the Judaizing Jews.
"...he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group." Galatians 2:12
He feared the Jews and him drawing back from the gentiles tells us why. He did not want to be persecuted for the cross. We know this to be the source of his fear from Galatians 6:12-13...
12Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. They only do this to avoid persecution for the cross of Christ. 13For the circumcised do not even keep the law themselves, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. Galatians 6:12-13
Paul's not talking about him specifically. But it shows us the hypocrisy of putting up appearances concerning the law, which Peter did, for the purpose of avoiding being persecuted for the cross. Peter did not keep any kind of law concerning the gentiles until the Jews showed up. He was being a hypocrite, because he was afraid of being persecuted, and Paul called him out on it. This is hardly the sinless perfection you say all true believers have from the moment they believe, or else they're not true believers. I'm not prepared to call Peter a fake believer at this time in his life. But if you want to stick to your doctrine of sinless perfection from the moment of new birth you have to.
Yes, Peter received the vision about not calling the gentiles unclean, but he was still a Jew. Jews were separated from gentiles. Jesus even taught this to them. Now, all of sudden, things are changing during the Holy Spirit dispensation. Peter may have pondered in his mind, "Did God want the Jews to now mingle with the gentiles". This was a transitional period of time in the workings of God, so Peter was learning in my view.
To that end, Peter is my brother in Christ, and I expect to fellowship with him one day in Heaven, and I won't run him down or any other brother or sister. Remember, Jesus said to Peter, "Upon this rock will I build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it!". Peter was that rock.
While we may or may not ever attain sinless perfection, shouldn't we still strive for it?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Absolutely.
The call to be perfect as he is perfect (Matthew 5:48) is to seek to be perfect in the situations of life as they come up. It's not a score card like trying to maintain a 4.0 GPA. I don't see any value in looking at it like that. But I do see value in looking at it in terms of I'm going to respond to all of life's situations as they come up in accordance with the perfection of God's character, thereby being perfect as he is perfect in that situation. And then I will seek to do that again in the next situation.
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is what I've been trying to tell Hopeful . We don't start out in perfection. As children of God, we grow up into it. Just as any child grows up into the image of who's seed he is.
1Th 5:24, Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Do what?
1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:15, And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
Do what?
1Th 5:23, And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Co 1:15, And in this confidence I was minded to come unto you before, that ye might have a second benefit;
Not at all. That would be to misunderstand me and the Bible.
Your entire position on this passage rests on changing "we," "our," and "us," to "they," their," and "them." Context and grammar matter, but your position makes it all a hodgepodge. We simply cannot change what was written. From 1 John 1:1, it is all about "we," "our," and "us"; a believer writing to other believers about how to walk in the light and what to do when they sin.
Your argument that 'The "anyone" are those who have not yet availed themselves of the Advocate' (which means they're an unbeliever), doesn't even make sense, since, again, it is about John's "little children." He is writing to those who were likely his spiritual children, those whom he lead to faith and leads in the faith. So, the "anyone" can only refer to those to whom he is writing and why he says that "if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father." It makes absolutely no sense to first, use a term of endearment to those to whom he is writing, say that he is writing "these things" so that they "may not sin," and then mention that if an unbeliever sins, believers "have an advocate with the Father."
I'm not overlooking anything. Again, the issue is that context and grammar matter. You're conflating the fact that believers sin with someone who continually and habitually sins. As I pointed out, 1 John 1:9 speaks of continually confessing sins, which is incongruent with your position. 1 John 3:6-10 further attests to what John is speaking of in 1:6-7--that it is about how a person lives on a continual basis. These verses are about whether a person's life is characterized by sin (walking in darkness) or characterized by righteousness (walking in light).
1 John 1:8-2:1 are dealing with a Christian's sins, which we all do on occasion (every day), but it is not something that characterizes us.
Of course. That goes without saying.
We are simply not obligated to obey the flesh (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt))
No, but we still sin every day, every single one of us. We may sin less as we mature in the faith, but we will not stop sinning until we attain perfection, which will not happen in this life.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Believers are set apart to live for God the moment they believe. They spend the rest of their lives learning to live set apart to God.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Unbelievers don't know that being a Christian is about learning to be what God wants us to be more and more (2 Peter 1:8 NIV).
If more Christians would explain this to potential converts maybe they wouldn't be so judgmental towards us children of God growing up to look like Daddy, not starting out that way, and might actually show some interest in the faith. It's the false doctrine of not sinning because you're a Christian now that repels unbelievers. But like I say, if they really are interested in making peace with God, imperfect Christians aren't going to be hinder them. They didn't stop me. Imperfect Christians are just an excuse for unbelievers to stay in their unbelief and rejection of God.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Being a hypocrite, and being a struggling believer growing up in the faith are two very different things.