Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[justbyfaith]

No, but we still sin every day, every single one of us. We may sin less as we mature in the faith, but we will not stop sinning until we attain perfection, which will not happen in this life.

I disagree. I believe that we are not obligated to obey the flesh, and that if we give diligence to make our calling and election sure, we will never fall. Also, if we love the brethren, there is none occasion of stumbling in us. And also, God is able to keep us from falling and to present us faultless before His presence with exceeding joy.

 

[justbyfaith]

Believers are set apart to live for God the moment they believe. They spend the rest of their lives learning to live set apart to God.

If we hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be filled. And it does not happen at the moment of our death. It can happen long before.

 

[justbyfaith]

Unbelievers don't know that being a Christian is about learning to be what God wants us to be more and more (2 Peter 1:8 NIV).

If more Christians would explain this to potential converts maybe they wouldn't be so judgmental towards us children of God growing up to look like Daddy, not starting out that way, and might actually show some interest in the faith. It's the false doctrine of not sinning because you're a Christian now that repels unbelievers. But like I say, if they really are interested in making peace with God, imperfect Christians aren't going to be hinder them. They didn't stop me. Imperfect Christians are just an excuse for unbelievers to stay in their unbelief and rejection of God.

My story is different. It took the understanding that hypocrites are not true Christians to convince me to become one. Hypocrisy repulsed me from the faith until I realized that true Christians are not hypocrites but obedient children.

And the doctrine of not sinning because you're a Christian now, is biblical (1 John 3:9, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14; 1 John 3:7, 1 John 3:3, 1 John 2:6; 1 John 3:6, 1 John 2:17; Jude 1:24, 2 Peter 1:10, 1 John 2:10; Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)).

 

[Hopeful]

Repentance does not mean sinlessness. You can see how Paul uses the word to show that repentance is a change of mind about sin, a renunciation of sin, not the absence of sin, for he exhorts people to have deeds appropriate to their repentance, their change of mind about sin (Acts 26:20).

G3341 - metanoia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

G3341 - μετάνοια metánoia, met-an'-oy-ah; from ; (subjectively) compunction (for guilt, including reformation); by implication, reversal (of (another's) decision):—repentance.

www.blueletterbible.org

If you repent off driving west, do you drive west anymore?
No.
If one repents of committing sin they don't commit any more sin.
Thank God for giving the Gentiles the gift of repentance !
Acts 11:18..."When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
That "turn", in league with rebirth from God's seed, produces FAITHFUL children of God.
One of the Merriam-Webster definitions of repentance..."REPENTANCE adds the implication of a resolve to change.
repentance accompanied by a complete change of character"

 

[Free]

I disagree. I believe that we are not obligated to obey the flesh, and that if we give diligence to make our calling and election sure, we will never fall.

Never fail at what? Sinning is certain while we're in this particular flesh.

Also, if we love the brethren, there is none occasion of stumbling in us.

What do you mean by this?

And also, God is able to keep us from falling and to present us faultless before His presence with exceeding joy.

Yes, we won't lose our salvation but that doesn't mean he will keep us from sinning.

 

[justbyfaith]

Being a hypocrite, and being a struggling believer growing up in the faith are two very different things.

When we mess up in front of unbelievers, they use our mistake as an excuse not to come to Christ because there are hypocrites in the church.

Therefore we ought to hunger and thirst for righteousness from the moment of first faith.

Jesus promised us that if we do that, we will be filled with righteousness.

Jesus also said that unless "your" righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will in no wise enter the kingdom of heaven.

Outwardly, the scribes and Pharisees were impeccably righteous.

So, in context of what the audience listening to Jesus would think of His statement, He was setting forth a tall order.

Yet, what He was proposing was indeed possible because of Matthew 5:6.

 

[justbyfaith]

Never fail at what?

Not "never fail"..."never fall" (two "l's"; not an "i" and then an "l").

What do you mean by this?

The same thing that John meant by it (1 John 2:10).

Yes, we won't lose our salvation but that doesn't mean he will keep us from sinning.

He can indeed keep us from sinning. He offers "remission of sins" in one promise (Acts 2:38-39). Are you willing to fulfill the condition? Only then will you find that the promise is real!

 

[justbyfaith]

If you repent off driving west, do you drive west anymore?
No.
If one repents of committing sin they don't commit any more sin.
Thank God for giving the Gentiles the gift of repentance !
Acts 11:18..."When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."
That "turn", in league with rebirth from God's seed, produces FAITHFUL children of God.
One of the Merriam-Webster definitions of repentance..."REPENTANCE adds the implication of a resolve to change.
repentance accompanied by a complete change of character"

Do you wear tzitzit and tallit?

Do you blow the chofar every new moon?

If not, then you are committing sins of omission in that you are violating the law.

It is written,

1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

 

[Hopeful]

All believers who have received the gospel, retaining it in their hearts are saved, born again people - John 5:24.

Amen to that.
Are they really believers if they quit following the Lord two days later?
Two years later?
No.
Believers, after their initial acceptance of the truth about Jesus, will ask..."Now what do I do?"
Like the visiting Jews at Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost..."Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2:37)
The answer?..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
That is what believers will do.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let me repeat my theology.

That concerning the letter of the law, even those who are sticklers for it will find themselves unable to keep it (Galatians 6:13).

But that concerning the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6), the righteousness of the law is even fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

For the law has been changed (Hebrews 7:12) from attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts, to walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-24).

 

[Hopeful]

You don't have to accuse Peter of sin. Paul did that for us.

I don't accuse him of anything but missing an opportunity to illustrate how Jews and Gentiles were now one in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Let me repeat my theology.

That concerning the letter of the law, even those who are sticklers for it will find themselves unable to keep it (Galatians 6:13).

But that concerning the spirit of the law (Romans 7:6), the righteousness of the law is even fulfilled in those who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

For the law has been changed (Hebrews 7:12) from attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts, to walking not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Galatians 5:16-24).

Also, if anyone is seeking to be justified by works, law-keeping, obedience, or personal merit,

they are required to obey the entire letter of the law as it is portrayed to us as a set of do's and don'ts in the Old and New Testaments.

Gal 3:10, For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Jas 2:10, For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Mat 5:48, Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

If we place our faith and trust in Christ and what He did for us on the Cross, then His perfect life and righteousness is applied to our account for that His shed blood has been applied to our sins.

But if not, we must be absolutely perfect from the moment of conception into all of eternity...

For that is the just requirement of a holy God.

 

[Hopeful]

There's nothing "allegedly" about it. It plainly says he withdrew from the gentiles for fear of the Judaizing Jews.

"Judaizing" isn't mentioned.
Don't let your bias cloud the issue.
My "allegedly" was in regard to the visiting Jew's belief.

"...he began to draw back and separate himself, for fear of those in the circumcision group." Galatians 2:12
He feared the Jews and him drawing back from the gentiles tells us why. He did not want to be persecuted for the cross. We know this to be the source of his fear from Galatians 6:12-13...

You have flipped over to Paul, from Peter.
And Paul isn't taking about Peter in Gal 6.

12Those who want to make a good impression outwardly are trying to compel you to be circumcised. They only do this to avoid persecution for the cross of Christ. 13For the circumcised do not even keep the law themselves, yet they want you to be circumcised that they may boast in your flesh. Galatians 6:12-13

Paul's not talking about him specifically.

Agreed.

But it shows us the hypocrisy of putting up appearances concerning the law, which Peter did, for the purpose of avoiding being persecuted for the cross.

You don't think the visitors honored what occurred on "the cross"?
Your attack on Peter now includes all the visitors too?
Who knows what happened when they showed up?
They may have dived right in to a big plate of the Gentile's bacon!

Peter did not keep any kind of law concerning the gentiles until the Jews showed up.

True.
What do you suppose the visitors would have done if they saw Peter and Paul eating with Gentile believers?
Would they go all "Law keeper" on them?
Or might they have accepted the gracious Gentile hospitality with remembrance of Peter's prior visit to Cornelius in mind?

He was being a hypocrite, because he was afraid of being persecuted, and Paul called him out on it. This is hardly the sinless perfection you say all true believers have from the moment they believe, or else they're not true believers. I'm not prepared to call Peter a fake believer at this time in his life. But if you want to stick to your doctrine of sinless perfection from the moment of new birth you have to.

Am I a hypocritical sinner because I put away the beers and Cokes when JW's show up at my door?
Or am I condescending ("to willingly lower oneself to another’s level,") to their beliefs in order to get them in the door?

Without Peter's reply to the charge, it is beyond our knowledge as to how to react to it 2000 years later.
If you want to call him a sinner...feel free.
I don't, and won't.
But I do hope that your insistence that being freed from sin is heretical (or whatever) drives your POV, perhaps we should back up and go to that starting point.

 

[Hopeful]

While we may or may not ever attain sinless perfection, shouldn't we still strive for it?

Why strive for the impossible?
I am glad it is possible.

 

[Hopeful]

Absolutely.

The call to be perfect as he is perfect (Matthew 5:48) is to seek to be perfect in the situations of life as they come up. It's not a score card like trying to maintain a 4.0 GPA. I don't see any value in looking at it like that. But I do see value in looking at it in terms of I'm going to respond to all of life's situations as they come up in accordance with the perfection of God's character, thereby being perfect as he is perfect in that situation. And then I will seek to do that again in the next situation.

Isn't that possible?

 

[Hopeful]

Not at all. That would be to misunderstand me and the Bible.

Hmmm.

Your entire position on this passage rests on changing "we," "our," and "us," to "they," their," and "them." Context and grammar matter, but your position makes it all a hodgepodge. We simply cannot change what was written. From 1 John 1:1, it is all about "we," "our," and "us"; a believer writing to other believers about how to walk in the light and what to do when they sin.

Doesn't John address two conflicting positions in 1 John 1?
Walking in darkness-sin juxtaposed against walking in light-God?
The verses don't apply to both sinners and those walking in God.
Just one or the other.

Your argument that 'The "anyone" are those who have not yet availed themselves of the Advocate' (which means they're an unbeliever), doesn't even make sense, since, again, it is about John's "little children." He is writing to those who were likely his spiritual children, those whom he lead to faith and leads in the faith. So, the "anyone" can only refer to those to whom he is writing and why he says that "if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father." It makes absolutely no sense to first, use a term of endearment to those to whom he is writing, say that he is writing "these things" so that they "may not sin," and then mention that if an unbeliever sins, believers "have an advocate with the Father."

He is telling them that those who commit sin can be redeemed by the Advocate's cleansing blood, (v7), which is applied after confession of sins, (v9), (in water baptism).

I'm not overlooking anything. Again, the issue is that context and grammar matter. You're conflating the fact that believers sin with someone who continually and habitually sins. As I pointed out, 1 John 1:9 speaks of continually confessing sins, which is incongruent with your position. 1 John 3:6-10 further attests to what John is speaking of in 1:6-7--that it is about how a person lives on a continual basis. These verses are about whether a person's life is characterized by sin (walking in darkness) or characterized by righteousness (walking in light).

1 John 1:8-2:1 are dealing with a Christian's sins, which we all do on occasion (every day), but it is not something that characterizes us.

If they are sinning, they are walking in darkness.
Sinners cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God.
Those walking in the light can say both.

Of course. That (there is no sin in God) goes without saying.

Then sinners are walking in darkness and have no fellowship with Father.
They don't have to remain there.

 

[Hopeful]

No, but we still sin every day, every single one of us. We may sin less as we mature in the faith, but we will not stop sinning until we attain perfection, which will not happen in this life.

Perhaps that is why "we" are allowed to end "this life" at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)
Rebirth fixes your problem.

 

[Hopeful]

Unbelievers don't know that being a Christian is about learning to be what God wants us to be more and more (2 Peter 1:8 NIV).

If more Christians would explain this to potential converts maybe they wouldn't be so judgmental towards us children of God growing up to look like Daddy, not starting out that way, and might actually show some interest in the faith. It's the false doctrine of not sinning because you're a Christian now that repels unbelievers. But like I say, if they really are interested in making peace with God, imperfect Christians aren't going to be hinder them. They didn't stop me. Imperfect Christians are just an excuse for unbelievers to stay in their unbelief and rejection of God.

The "converts" love knowing that obedience to God is not expected of them. (I write sarcastically)
What then have they converted to?
Paul writes..."To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me." (Acts 26:18)
I hope you are not turning them from darkness to less darkness.

 

[Hopeful]

Do you wear tzitzit and tallit?
Do you blow the chofar every new moon?
If not, then you are committing sins of omission in that you are violating the law.
It is written,
1Jo 3:4, Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Thank God we are dead to the Law...eh?
Neither of your examples make a man righteous.
They make them a Law keeper.

 

[justbyfaith]

Isn't that possible?

What do you say to the idea that the moment we are justified by the law (the moment we stop sinning and find justification in that), we are fallen from grace (Galatians 5:1-4)?