Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[justbyfaith]

Then why are you trying to be justified by perfect behavior?

Not doing that. I'm just happy to be sanctified wholly. It's easier on my conscience.

Yes, but that holiness is not defined as behaviorally perfect. No one will see the Lord if that is true. Simple observation bears this out.

There are those who are holy with the definition of behavioural perfection. I've seen them and known them.

Of course it does. But 'holy' does not mean 'perfectly sinless'. It means set apart for a holy purpose, not that you will always be serving that holy purpose. God will teach you to serve the holy purpose for which you have been set apart.

I know. And "wholly sanctified" does not mean "perfectly sinless". It means that sin is rendered dead within you so that it no longer has any authority over your behaviour. (sin is not eradicated from the body; so that one might say, "I am without sin (i.e. sinless)." That would be self-deception.)

I'm pretty sure Calvary Chapel does not teach a works justification gospel, not even the Catholic version. So, where did you get this false knowledge from?

I'm not teaching a works justification gospel.

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes! But stop thinking being declared righteous means being perfectly sinless! The only sinless perfection you have lies in the fact that as a believer God erases all traces of your sin guilt when you sin and so he sees you as sinless in that regard. Meanwhile, he has enrolled you in the school of hard knocks teaching you how to have less and less sin guilt to be forgiven.

Being declared righteous means that I am righteous. In 1 John 3:7, this means that I am a doer of righteousness and that I am righteous in the doing, even as He is righteous.

How righteous is He (Jesus)?

He is perfect!

I am not righteous according to the law; I am righteous by faith: practically in the sense that I walk consistently not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Rom 2:13, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

We don't know for sure, but Paul is saying one of two things here:

1) Only those who successfully perform the requirements of the law (which means perfectly) are justified by the law in the sense of being MADE righteous by the law. This is the definition of the word 'justified' that Paul addresses in his letters.

2) When a person does perform the righteous requirements of the law he is justified in the sense that he is SHOWN to have the righteousness that comes solely through faith. This is the definition of 'justified' that James addresses in his letter.

The Catholics do not know that James is using a different definition of 'justified' than Paul is and so they have created a false and erroneous gospel of justification by faith and works. One that it seems you are embracing.

 

[justbyfaith]

We don't know for sure, but Paul is saying one of two things here:

1) Only those who successfully perform the requirements of the law (which means perfectly) are justified by the law in the sense of being MADE righteous by the law. This is the definition of the word 'justified' that Paul addresses in his letters.

2) When a person does perform the righteous requirements of the law he is justified in the sense that he is SHOWN to have the righteousness that comes solely through faith. This is the definition of 'justified' that James addresses in his letter.

The Catholics do not know that James is using a different definition of 'justified' than Paul is and so they have created a false and erroneous gospel of justification by faith and works. One that it seems you are embracing.

Scripture interprets scripture:

Rom 2:13, (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14, For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15, Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; )

We inadvertently become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven when we consistently bear the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:22, But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[justbyfaith]

I am not righteous according to the law; I am righteous by faith: practically in the sense that I walk consistently not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

In that Christ is living His life in me and through me, the life that is lived is going to be a perfect life.

Gal 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Can an alcoholic continue to drink and call himself sober?

 

[justbyfaith]

Overcoming Sin

Freedom from Sin: Overcoming the Wet Paint Principle By Victor Jedidiah A Blood of the Covenant Tract or Booklet Preface May the Lord the Holy Spirit impart to you what He wishes to impart to you as you read this; and also give you discernment that you may be a Berean (Acts 17:11) and sift it...

christianforums.net

 

[justbyfaith]

Can an alcoholic continue to drink and call himself sober?

Not in any reality that I am aware of...

 

[brother Paul]

I believe the key is in the OP's verse 12 "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body..." and here is why (and this applies to all truly born from above). Before being re-born as one of His, we lived for sin. We did not even consider it sin. I remember getting prepared on Thursday for going partying on Friday and Saturday! Sin was my way of life (though I thought is WAS life) and the occasions when I strove to be righteous or do good or not to "sin" were the exception not the rule.,

Then after His Spirit took up residence, over the next 10 years (takes time for some babies to grow), these interests slowly faded and being righteous, doing good and striving to NOT sin became the norm and sinning became the exception to the rule. Most of the sins after that point are what the RC's call "sins of the flesh" (occasional desires to drink, or being swept up in lustful thoughts usually combatted, and so on). God knows we are still IN these flesh tents and as long as we are (unfortunately) we will on occasion be drawn into such things. But trust Him, HJis grace is much much bigger than our human frailty.


Whosoever that says they have NO SIN in their life is a liar and the truth is not in him. So when we sin confess and agree with Him about our sin and He IS justified and faithful to forgive us (1 John). Be blessed and fear not for He is with us and Jesus death, burial, and resurrection ARE sufficient

 

[justbyfaith]

Whosoever that says they have NO SIN in their life is a liar and the truth is not in him. So when we sin confess and agree with Him about our sin and He IS justified and faithful to forgive us (1 John). Be blessed and fear not for He is with us and Jesus death, burial, and resurrection ARE sufficient

1 John 1:8, right?

Does 1 John 1:8 contradict the literal understanding of 1 John 3:4-9?

I don't think so.

1 John 1:8 is either talking about indwelling sin (and not practical sinning) or else it is referring, as in the case of Hebrews 4:15, to a record of past sins; and therefore 1 John 1:10 would only be a reiteration of 1 John 1:8.

If the latter, then it would not be deceiving one's self to say that we are without indwelling sin.

Colossians 2:11 (especially in the nlt) would seem to substantiate this concept.

But I have taught over the years that 1 John 1:8 is referring to indwelling sin rather than practical sinning. In that case, then it should be clear that the element of sin within the flesh can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)).

But if it is talking about a record of sin, then it is merely saying that if we say that we have never sinned, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That is talking about the past; not the present or the future.

As concerning the present and the future, it should be clear that, whether John is using hyperbole or saying it literally, those who are born of God "cannot sin"...interpret that as you please (but be sure to ask the Holy Spirit what He means by it and then heed His voice as to the interpretation).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We inadvertently become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven when we consistently bear the fruit of the Spirit.

Actually, no.
You became a citizen of the kingdom of God the moment you believed and were justified.
God's righteousness, received by faith apart from works, qualifies you for the kingdom of God, not the righteousness of your works. Not even your works of faith make you righteous and qualified for entrance into the kingdom. Those are the result of the righteousness of God that you have received by faith, and which happen as you grow up into the obedience of the righteousness you have received.

 

[Free]

Not "never fail"..."never fall" (two "l's"; not an "i" and then an "l").

Misread it. In what way will we never fall?

The same thing that John meant by it (1 John 2:10).

Okay, and what exactly does John mean?

He can indeed keep us from sinning.

And, yet, he never promises he will.

He offers "remission of sins" in one promise (Acts 2:38-39).

At the point of justification, yes.

Are you willing to fulfill the condition? Only then will you find that the promise is real!

What are saying?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, I am justified by faith as an ungodly person (Romans 4:5). But when God justifies me, He declares me righteous. It is impossible for Him to lie; so I am righteous.

You are righteous...just not in word and deed, but in regard to not having any sin guilt.
You are righteous insofar as you do not have the guilt of sin remaining that you should be regarded as unrighteous. And not just that, but you have had the righteousness of God put in it's place.

 

[Free]

Doesn't John address two conflicting positions in 1 John 1?
Walking in darkness-sin juxtaposed against walking in light-God?
The verses don't apply to both sinners and those walking in God.
Just one or the other.

All those verses apply to believers. He is a believer writing to other believers and those who merely claim to be believers. He is not writing to unbelievers. The whole point is that believers, and those who think they are, would look at how they're living and consider whether their lives are characterized by sin or by righteousness. If their lives are characterized by sin, then they are actually walking in darkness. Yet, those who walk in the light still sin, and so need to confess those sins to receive forgiveness.

He is telling them that those who commit sin can be redeemed by the Advocate's cleansing blood, (v7), which is applied after confession of sins, (v9), (in water baptism).

Again, that does not at all fit the context. He is a believer writing to other believers--"we," "our," "us"--but even more than that, those who are his "little children," those he knows are believers because they are likely his spiritual children. He is telling them that if they sin there is an advocate. And this just after he told them that if they claim to be without sin, they are self-deceived, do not have the truth, make God a liar, and don't have His word in them.

If they are sinning, they are walking in darkness.

Only if their lives are characterized by sin. Again, John makes this clear in chapter 3.

Sinners cannot say they have no sin, or that they have fellowship with God.

Obviously.

Those walking in the light can say both.

No, they absolutely cannot. John clearly states otherwise. Again, this continues to ignore the context, including that John states the need to continual confession of sins. I don't see how your position can account for such a statement.

Perhaps that is why "we" are allowed to end "this life" at our "immersion" into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-7)
Rebirth fixes your problem.

No, it doesn't. Both Paul and John make this clear.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

those who are born of God "cannot sin"...interpret that as you please (but be sure to ask the Holy Spirit what He means by it and then heed His voice as to the interpretation).

Like all things, interpret it in the context of the whole counsel of scripture.

Not rightly dividing John's teaching out from the rest of the word of God about the subject will lead you to the damnation of failing to be the perfectly behaved person you are convinced you must be in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.

 

[justbyfaith]

Actually, no.
You became a citizen of the kingdom of God the moment you believed and were justified.
God's righteousness, received by faith apart from works, qualifies you for the kingdom of God, not the righteousness of your works. Not even your works of faith make you righteous and qualified for entrance into the kingdom. Those are the result of the righteousness of God that you have received by faith, and which happen as you grow up into the obedience of the righteousness you have received.

I didn't say "citizen". I said "law-abiding citizen"

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture interprets scripture:

You're kidding yourself if you think Romans 2:13 means it is possible to be justified (made righteous) by the law. That's not what he's saying. We know that from this:

20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. Romans 3:20

As you say, let scripture interpret scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

Misread it. In what way will we never fall?

In the sense of falling into sin (giving in to temptation).

Okay, and what exactly does John mean?

Just what he says, "there is none occasion of stumbling in him".

And, yet, he never promises he will.

He promises, in Jude 1:24, that He is able to keep us from falling. Compare that to Hebrews 2:18, and you will see that he is talking about falling into temptation by giving in to it. So, in Jude 1:24, as compared to 2 Peter 1:10, as compared to 1 John 2:10, He promises that He will keep us from sinning. Try Ezekiel 36:27 also. And Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt) show us that sinning is not inevitable in the believer's life...we can walk in consistent freedom and victory for an extended period of time...even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

You are righteous...just not in word and deed,

Yes, in word and deed (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

but in regard to not having any sin guilt.

Also in that regard.

Like all things, interpret it in the context of the whole counsel of scripture.

Not rightly dividing John's teaching out from the rest of the word of God about the subject will lead you to the damnation of failing to be the perfectly behaved person you are convinced you must be in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.

I don't think that I have to be perfect in order to be saved when Jesus comes back.

However, I am blessed to be sanctified wholly as a second benefit that the Lord has afforded to me.

Because I am obedient, I do not have to face the afflictions of the conscience that I would have to face if I were still a child of disobedience.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Being declared righteous means that I am righteous. In 1 John 3:7, this means that I am a doer of righteousness and that I am righteous in the doing, even as He is righteous.

How righteous is He (Jesus)?

He is perfect!

I am not righteous according to the law; I am righteous by faith: practically in the sense that I walk consistently not after the flesh but after the Spirit.

You are mess of contradiction. Out one side of your mouth righteousness means perfection, then out the other side of your mouth it's consistency. The latter is correct. Forget this 100% perfection crap. Just prepare to respond to your next temptation to obey the flesh in the perfect way of the Spirit. If you don't, learn from it and try again next time. Stop trying to maintain this 4.0 GPA that you think you have to have to be saved when Christ returns! You lost that chance a long time ago! In fact, you lost that the moment you committed your first sin after receiving Christ in salvation.

Receiving the perfect righteousness of God does not mean you are now perfectly sinless in behavior. It means you have been absolved of all sin guilt in the eyes of God and are, therefore, righteous in his sight that way. Your behavior will catch up with what God has declared you to be as you mature in the faith and learn, more and more, how to walk in the righteousness that has been seeded in you via the Holy Spirit.

 

[justbyfaith]

You're kidding yourself if you think Romans 2:13 means it is possible to be justified (made righteous) by the law. That's not what he's saying. We know that from this:

20Therefore no one will be justified in His sight by works of the law. For the law merely brings awareness of sin. Romans 3:20

As you say, let scripture interpret scripture.

We are justified only through faith in the blood of Jesus and not by the works of the law.

If we have faith, then we bear the fruit of the Spirit; against which there is no law.

Therefore we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom when we consistently bear the fruit of the Spirit.

So, there is a practical outworking of having been justified by faith.