Jethro Bodine
Member
And so we know Paul does not mean that in Romans 2:13.
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?
Hopeful was saying how thankful he was that he could keep the law perfectly. Every moral tenet in the OT and NT applies (Galatians 3:10, Matthew 5:17-20).
I am saying to him that a definition for sin is that it is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).
According to that definition, not wearing tzitzit and tallit, and/or not blowing the chofar on the new moon, is a violation of the law and therefore sin.
I don't have to do those things because I am not under the law (Romans 6:14), am dead to the law (Romans 7:4, Galatians 2:19) and am delivered from the law (Romans 7:6); since I am led of the Spirit (Galatians 5:18).
The Spirit may at some point lead me to wear tzitzit and tallit and/or blow the chofar on the new moon.
However, currently, I do not even have tziztit and tallit or even a chofar.
So, I am incapable of obeying those laws.
Nevertheless, the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in me because I walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).
Because I am led of the Spirit, I am not under the law (Galatians 5:18).
But for those who are seeking to be justified through law-keeping, works, obedience, or personal merit, the requirement is to keep every moral tenet in the law perfectly (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48) from conception into eternity.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Just end your quotation after "when we receive the Spirit." Your obedience plays no role whatsoever in being made a child of God. Receiving the forgiveness of God and the imputation of the Holy Spirit through faith does that all by itself.
What he means is that the doers of the law shall be justified.
Since if we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).
Therefore, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom when we bear the fruit of the Spirit.
And therefore we are justified according to the law (not by it).
Jethro Bodine
Member
He made it clear that there are some laws that simply do not have to be kept now. And he is correct. Any law that sought to do what is already done for us in Jesus Christ does not have to be literally kept anymore.
No; because there is no law that will condemn our behaviour if we bear the fruit of the Spirit; even according to Galatians 5:22-23.
Fruit may be something that shows itself forth practically, but it is not works / obedience.
However if you do not keep every law, you are not keeping the law perfectly (see Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48).
And that was my point.
If I (or you, for that matter) do not wear tzitzit and tallit, and/or don't blow the chofar on the new moon, we are violating the law, and therefore sinning. For sin is the transgression of the law (1 John 3:4).
That is according to the letter of the law; for those who seek to be justified by the law (see Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48, Galatians 5:1-4).
For those who are in Christ, we are forgiven and walk according to the spirit of what is written (Romans 7:6, Romans 8:4).
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Jethro Bodine
Member
The reason you don't understand the subject of justification is because you do not know that it has two different definitions and usages in the Bible. Paul is talking about becoming righteous. James is talking about being shown to be righteous. Both mean to be justified.
Your works do not make you righteous in God's sight. Your works show you to be righteous. You are not made a child of God by being obedient. That happens by faith all by itself. You show yourself to be a child of God by your works.
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Jethro Bodine
Member
You don't become righteous in God's sight by being righteous. You don't become a child of God by being obedient. Faith in God's forgiveness does that all by itself.
I do understand it.
There is a reason why you don't understand the subject of sanctification.
right. It is the other way around. We are obedient because we have become children of God.
Tit 3:3, For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.
right. we do what is righteous because we have been made righteous (Romans 5:19).
1Jo 3:7, Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
What do you make of Acts 5:32?
Act 5:32, And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
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Do yourself a favour and take the beam out of your eye before you try to take a speck out of your brother's eye.
James, in James 2:14-26, in speaking of justification, is speaking of justification before men (as the entire passage is qualified by Romans 4:2).
Paul, in Romans 4:1-8, is speaking of justification before God (for man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7)).
Paul, in Romans 4:1-8, is speaking of justification before God (for man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart (1 Samuel 16:7)).
Jethro Bodine
Member
It can mean two things.
1) The obedience that solicits the indwelling Holy Spirit is the obedience of repenting and having faith in God. Having faith is in fact the one single solitary thing that you 'do' to be justified (made righteous).
2) We experience the manifestation of the Holy Spirit in our lives when we live in obedience to God's commands, and so it is 'given' to us in that sense.
Both are true. Which one is Peter specifically referring to? I don't know. I suspect the first one. The obedience of having faith will in fact solicit the Holy Spirit in salvation. It is the one thing you must 'do' in order to become a saved, born again person, and that is distinguished from all other things you do. Anything else you do to become saved is serving the works justification gospel condemned in scripture.
In becoming righteous, we become practically righteous, so that it can be shown (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:5).
I perceive it as saying that God gives the Holy Spirit to those who obey Him.
It is true that we really cannot obey Him apart from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (except to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth for the remission of sins; for the Holy Ghost is promised as the result of such an action).
So, we obey Him because we have the Holy Spirit...He has already given Him to us; and we obey Him as the result.
Yes, faith being the first act of obedience may in fact be the key to receiving the Holy Ghost...
And subsequently, we cannot be disobedient (Titus 3:3).
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Jethro Bodine
Member
How does James' justification make you righteous? How does that justification make you a citizen of the kingdom? How does that justification make you a child of God?
How does the justification that Paul talks about make you righteous?
Jethro Bodine
Member
Born again people sin. What they don't do is live in sin as a deliberate lifestyle.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I understand the two different meanings and usages of the word 'justified' used in the Bible.
You do not become righteous by acting righteously.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Only if they can deceive me into thinking they are more powerful.
As I grow up in the faith and learn to distinguish good from evil, like all children of God will, I become more aware of and on guard against the deceits of the devil and the flesh. And so the traits of the Spirit increase in my life thus confirming my calling and election (IOW, confirming that I am a saved, born again, child of God.)
Progression confirms that one is called and elected, not perfection.
I gave the teaching on that above to show that I already had that understanding.
It is true that you do not become righteous by acting righteously.
The reality is that we become righteous by faith...and we act righteously because we have become righteous.
Because the righteousness which is by faith, is something that is attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21). The law and the prophets bear witness that it is righteousness indeed...and that indicates that there is a practicality to it.