Can you continue to knowingly sin and remain a Christian?

[justbyfaith]

Progression confirms that one is called and elected, not perfection.

Perfection is something that comes as an added blessing to those who do not want to be afflicted in their consciences (2 Corinthians 1:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Hebrews 10:14, 1 John 3:9)

 

[justbyfaith]

How does James' justification make you righteous? How does that justification make you a citizen of the kingdom? How does that justification make you a child of God?

How does the justification that Paul talks about make you righteous?

James' justification is a declaration of righteousness based on works; before men.

Paul's justification is a declaration of righteousness based on faith alone; before God.

When we stand before God in judgment, it will be on the basis of our works; even though we are saved by grace through faith. It will be determined before the 24 elders whether we had a genuine faith on the basis of what we did in our lives.

 

[justbyfaith]

Born again people sin. What they don't do is live in sin as a deliberate lifestyle.

I command those words to fall to the ground.

The reality is this:

1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

In contradiction to your statement above.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is true that you do not become righteous by acting righteously.

The reality is that we become righteous by faith...and we act righteously because we have become righteous.

And so there is no necessity to be 100% sinless to become a presently saved person who will be saved from God's wrath when Jesus returns.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Perfection is something that comes as an added blessing to those who do not want to be afflicted in their consciences (2 Corinthians 1:15...

2 Corinthians 1:15 has to do with the second blessing of Paul's visit, so I don't know what you're trying to show with that verse regarding our discussion. It has nothing to do with it.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24

As long as you are believer whose sins are continually forgiven by the blood of Christ that you believe in you - which all believers are - you will always be blameless in God's sight. As long as you are believing in God's forgiveness, you are the blameless person prepared to meet God in judgment at the end of the age. 100% sinless perfection is not the condition that makes you ready to meet God in judgment. Your blameless status in the eyes of God because of your faith in God, evidenced by the ever-increasing traits of the Spirit, is what makes you ready to meet God in judgment at the end of the age at the resurrection.

Hebrews 10:14

This does not mean you are made perfectly sinless in your behavior. It means you are perfect insofar as the sacrifice of Jesus has removed all the guilt of your sin as if you were perfectly sinless in your behavior. And you became perfedct in that way the moment you first believed. "Made perfect" is in the Perfect tense which means it's a finished action with results continuing up to the present and which does not have to be repeated. It has nothing to do with becoming 100% perfectly sinless in your behavior.

1 John 3:9

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that being born again does not mean you will 100% not sin. It means you will not remain in your lifestyle of sin that you lived in as an unbeliever but that you will progress more and more towards living in the lifestyle of the traits of the Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

James' justification is a declaration of righteousness based on works; before men.

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with becoming righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Paul's justification is a declaration of righteousness based on faith alone; before God.

That is the declaration of righteousness in which you receive the imputation of God's righteousness, apart from and without consideration of your righteous behavior. It is the justification by faith wherein you are made righteous. This is very, very different than the aspect of justification that James is talking about in his letter - the justification by works wherein a person shows themselves to be righteous, not makes themselves righteous by works.

 

[Free]

I simply command those words to fall to the ground.

Well, they didn't and they won't, because they're biblical, based on what Paul and John state.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, they didn't and they won't, because they're biblical, based on what Paul and John state.

Nope. They are not biblical in the slightest.

The Bible states that those who are born of God "cannot sin".

If you had fulfilled the condition given in scripture for receiving "remission of sins" (Acts 2:38-39), you would believe in remission of sins.

Because you would have it.

 

[justbyfaith]

That is the declaration of righteousness in which you receive the imputation of God's righteousness, apart from and without consideration of your righteous behavior. It is the justification by faith wherein you are made righteous. This is very, very different than the aspect of justification that James is talking about in his letter - the justification by works wherein a person shows themselves to be righteous, not makes themselves righteous by works.

If you are truly made righteous then you have become righteous in your behaviour / actions (1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, Matthew 5:6).

 

[justbyfaith]

And so there is no necessity to be 100% sinless to become a presently saved person who will be saved from God's wrath when Jesus returns.

However, those who have been justified by His blood, the blood has been applied to them.

And, therefore, they are also sanctified (Hebrews 13:12, Hebrews 10:29)...

Even sanctified wholly (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

 

[justbyfaith]

2 Corinthians 1:15 has to do with the second blessing of Paul's visit, so I don't know what you're trying to show with that verse regarding our discussion. It has nothing to do with it.

I am using it as an evidentiary text (not a proof text) that what is spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 is a second benefit over and above salvation / justification.

As long as you are believer whose sins are continually forgiven by the blood of Christ that you believe in you - which all believers are - you will always be blameless in God's sight. As long as you are believing in God's forgiveness, you are the blameless person prepared to meet God in judgment at the end of the age. 100% sinless perfection is not the condition that makes you ready to meet God in judgment. Your blameless status in the eyes of God because of your faith in God, evidenced by the ever-increasing traits of the Spirit, is what makes you ready to meet God in judgment at the end of the age at the resurrection.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 speaks of being sanctified wholly...being made wholly holy...completely holy.

Your entire spirit and soul and body are preserved blameless unto the coming of Jesus, when you have this benefit.

In Hebrews 4:13, we find that everything is naked and open and laid bare before the eyes of Him with whom we have to do.

So, if I am blameless in His sight, I am blameless in reality; and in practicality.

This does not mean you are made perfectly sinless in your behavior. It means you are perfect insofar as the sacrifice of Jesus has removed all the guilt of your sin as if you were perfectly sinless in your behavior. And you became perfedct in that way the moment you first believed. "Made perfect" is in the Perfect tense which means it's a finished action with results continuing up to the present and which does not have to be repeated. It has nothing to do with becoming 100% perfectly sinless in your behavior.

Who is made perfect for ever but those who are sanctified (those who are made holy)?

This is talking about a practical righteousness; even as is spoken of in 1 John 3:7, Romans 5:19, and Matthew 5:6.

We know from the whole counsel of scripture that being born again does not mean you will 100% not sin. It means you will not remain in your lifestyle of sin that you lived in as an unbeliever but that you will progress more and more towards living in the lifestyle of the traits of the Spirit.

Every scripture stands on its own as a bastion of scriptural truth.

So, when it says that the one who is born of God "cannot sin" we are to take that at face value.

And verses that may seem to you to say otherwise, I am certain that if you bring them up, I can explain to you how they do not contradict the literal understanding of 1 John 3:9.

Scripture doesn't contradict other scripture.

 

[justbyfaith]

Which has absolutely NOTHING to do with becoming righteous.

I agree. We are made righteous by faith; and as the result we become doers of righteousness; and will therefore be declared to be righteous before men.

We are not made righteous by our doing of righteousness; we do righteousness because we have been made righteous.

It follows that if we are not doing righteousness, we have not been made righteous, even through faith in Jesus Christ.

For the righteousness which is of God through faith is attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21).

What that is saying is that the law and the prophets testify that the righteousness of faith is righteousness indeed; therefore the righteousness which is of God by faith is indeed practical.

Because the scripture is clear that if we bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our practical behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).

Therefore, when we bear the fruit of the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom.

Thus the law and the prophets testify to the fact that the righteousness which is of God by faith is righteousness indeed; even a practical righteousness.

 

[justbyfaith]

Well, they didn't and they won't, because they're biblical, based on what Paul and John state.

Both Free and Jethro Bodine appear to be contending for an idea that will excuse them for sinning on their day of judgment.

They appear to believe that, being born again does not mean that a man is made practically holy (or righteous) but that it only means that a man is forgiven.

Yet, the scriptures declare otherwise.

They declare that Jesus came "to save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21)...

And that if we hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be filled (Matthew 5:6).

Therefore, your only statement that you can make to God on your day of judgment, when He asks you why you didn't become righteous like certain others standing before the judgment seat, will be to say, "I wasn't hungry or thirsty for what You had to offer. So, I rejected it."

 

[Free]

Nope. They are not biblical in the slightest.

Sure are. Paul says that sin is the result of struggles with the flesh within the believer, using himself as an example. John says that a believer who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have God's word in themself. That means that believers sin; that it is impossible that they don't sin. The whole point, though, is that their lives aren't characterized by sin, but rather righteousness.

The Bible states that those who are born of God "cannot sin".

No, it doesn't. It does say that they cannot live a life that is characterized by sin.

If you had fulfilled the condition given in scripture for receiving "remission of sins" (Acts 2:38-39), you would believe in remission of sins.

Because you would have it.

Post that one more time and you will be banned from the thread for violating the ToS.

 

[Free]

Both Free and Jethro Bodine appear to be contending for an idea that will excuse them for sinning on their day of judgment.

On the contrary, we recognize that we sin and need to be continually confessing our sin, as John states we are to be doing. If anyone is looking for an excuse for sinning when facing Christ at the judgement, it is those believers who say it was impossible for them to sin and so they didn't confess and seek forgiveness as they were told to do. It is rather antinomian or hyper-grace.

They appear to believe that, being born again does not mean that a man is made practically holy (or righteous) but that it only means that a man is forgiven.

Yet, the scriptures declare otherwise.

They declare that Jesus came "to save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:21)...

And that if we hunger and thirst after righteousness, we will be filled (Matthew 5:6).

Therefore, your only statement that you can make to God on your day of judgment, when He asks you why you didn't become righteous like certain others standing before the judgment seat, will be to say, "I wasn't hungry or thirsty for what You had to offer. So, I rejected it."

You're conflating different ideas, not the least of which are justification and sanctification. We are justified and made new creatures but we still wrestle with the flesh, living in this fallen world as the Holy Spirit helps us grow in Christ. Unlike unbelievers who cannot not sin and whose lives are characterized by sin, believers are able to choose to not sin, since God provides a way out from temptation. But we will struggle with sin, although sinning less as we progress in sanctification, until we reach heaven.

 

[justbyfaith]

Sure are. Paul says that sin is the result of struggles with the flesh within the believer, using himself as an example.

Romans 7:14-25 is Paul using the literary tactic of IDENTIFICATION to define carnality in order to win the carnal believer to Christ. He becomes as the weak in order to gain the weak (1 Corinthians 9:22).

As evidence by the fact that he says he is carnal in verse 14; and yet if he were truly carnal, he would not have been penning holy scripture (see 2 Peter 1:21).

Also, in Romans 7:23, Paul says that he is held captive by the power of sin; yet in Romans 6:6-7, he tells us that he is set free from sin.

How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

I explain it by the knowledge that Paul's true state is that he is set free from sin and that he is using a literary tactic in Romans 7:14-25.

John says that a believer who claims to be without sin is self-deceived, doesn't have the truth, makes God a liar, and doesn't have God's word in themself.

This can be explained in two ways.

1) If we say that we "have no sin" (not "do no sin") we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. It is speaking of indwelling sin and not practical sinning. For the element of sin, dwelling in the flesh, can be rendered dead (Romans 6:6, Galatians 5:24, Romans 7:8) so that it no longer has any authority over our behaviour (Romans 6:14, Romans 8:12 (kjv, nlt)). In this scenario it is true that we are not obligated to the flesh, to sin; and that we can walk in freedom and victory for an extended period of time; even for the rest of our lives (Luke 1:74-75).

2) 1 John 1:8 is speaking of "if we say that we have no sin" in the same sense that it says that Jesus was tempted in all points yet without sin, in Hebrews 4:15. In this scenario, 1 John 1:10 is a perfect reiteration of 1 John 1:8. And what substantiates this is Colossians 2:11 (especially in the nlt); as well as the concept in 1 John 3:5 that there is no sin in Christ and the concept in 1 John 5:20 and elsewhere that those who believe are in Christ. Here, it is possible to assert that I have no indwelling sin and yet not be deceiving myself; all that is necessary for me to not be deceiving myself is to acknowledge that I have sinned at some juncture in the past. And in this scenario, it is not saying that we must necessarily commit sin in the present or the future. In fact, if it were saying that, it would be contradicting 1 John 3:4-9; and we know that the scriptures do not contradict each other.

That means that believers sin; that it is impossible that they don't sin.

See above.

No, it doesn't. It does say that they cannot live a life that is characterized by sin.

The kjv Bible does in fact say that the one who is born of God "cannot sin".

I suppose that you are here contending that the kjv is not the Holy Bible.

You had better have evidence to support your assertion.

Post that one more time and you will be banned from the thread for violating the ToS.

You're going to threaten me now? how Christ-like!

How is my statement a violation of the ToS? What # in the ToS is it in violation of?

Nevertheless, I don't have to ever say it again. I have said it; and it will have the impact that the Lord wants it to have. The word of the Lord will not return void.

I said it in love (see Galatians 5:22-23 and Psalms 94:20).

 

[justbyfaith]

On the contrary, we recognize that we sin and need to be continually confessing our sin, as John states we are to be doing. If anyone is looking for an excuse for sinning when facing Christ at the judgement, it is those believers who say it was impossible for them to sin and so they didn't confess and seek forgiveness as they were told to do. It is rather antinomian or hyper-grace.


You're conflating different ideas, not the least of which are justification and sanctification. We are justified and made new creatures but we still wrestle with the flesh, living in this fallen world as the Holy Spirit helps us grow in Christ. Unlike unbelievers who cannot not sin and whose lives are characterized by sin, believers are able to choose to not sin, since God provides a way out from temptation. But we will struggle with sin, although sinning less as we progress in sanctification, until we reach heaven.

However, in the essence of what you have been preaching here, I think that you actually believe that believers cannot not sin and that their lives are characterized by sin.

That means that believers sin; that it is impossible that they don't sin.

If believers can choose not to sin, why would we sin?

Especially if we don't want to and don't have to sin.

I think that that combination means that we cannot sin.

Not because we couldn't go down that path if we wanted to; but because we don't want to and don't have to go down that path.

 

[justbyfaith]

On the contrary, we recognize that we sin and need to be continually confessing our sin, as John states we are to be doing. If anyone is looking for an excuse for sinning when facing Christ at the judgement, it is those believers who say it was impossible for them to sin and so they didn't confess and seek forgiveness as they were told to do. It is rather antinomian or hyper-grace.


You're conflating different ideas, not the least of which are justification and sanctification. We are justified and made new creatures but we still wrestle with the flesh, living in this fallen world as the Holy Spirit helps us grow in Christ. Unlike unbelievers who cannot not sin and whose lives are characterized by sin, believers are able to choose to not sin, since God provides a way out from temptation. But we will struggle with sin, although sinning less as we progress in sanctification, until we reach heaven.

Sinners Bound to Change Their Own Hearts by Charles G. Finney

HOW TO CHANGE YOUR HEART by Charles G. Finney

 

[07/07/07]

DELIBERATE AND WILLFUL sinners are unbelievers.

Are you suggesting that one cannot walk with God for a season and then turn back to willful sin?