dirtfarmer
Member
hello eddif, dirtfarmer here
Do you suppose that the "services" that were held in Paul's day were similar to the ones that are held today? How many "visitors" do you suppose they had in those days?
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Cessationism- have tongues and prophecy ceased, or are they still active?
- Thread starter godsquadgeek
- Start date
hello eddif, dirtfarmer here
Do you suppose that the "services" that were held in Paul's day were similar to the ones that are held today? How many "visitors" do you suppose they had in those days?
Let me go this way to answer.
At a point in my life (after I repented, but before I accepted Jesus as Lord) I went to a country Presbyterian Church). I could almost literally see my life in the service.
The hymns related to questions I had.
The sermon cut me to the bone.
The people I talked to were on my wave length.
The scripture related to me.
Was it a toungue talking Holy Ghost filled Pentecostal service? Why no.
Was God active? Yes.
Did I think it should be more Pentecostal?
Regretfully yes. Did I see things suddenly beyond where I was? Yes.
Have I had to struggle with all this? A big yes. Agony in understanding a brick masons helper could prophesy to me on a worksite, and a Pentecostal sermon could mean nothing to me.
Do all speak in tongues? No. God will use who he will (if you let him). Are spiritual gifts for today? Yes. Are they imitated? Regretfully yes.
So.
Then and today there were positive moves of God, for visitors, and there are pretended copies of the reality.
Folks go into churches and starve, but walk into Walmart and meet God on isle 12.
Or think they met God in isle 12 and got a spirit, but it was not holy. The same in some churches. You get a spirit, but it is not holy.
May the eyes of our understanding be opened to our reality in Christ Jesus.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
dirtfarmer
Member
hello eddif, dirtfarmer here
You have described modern day services. I know how they are conducted. The questions are, do you believe that the "services" in Paul's time were the same as today? Also, How many visitors do you they had in Paul's day?
They can be.(IMHO)
I suppose the answer is: it depends on the revivals / modern moves of God.
In the time of Paul the work of Jesus was still drawing visitors on a regular basis.
But.
There were issues then too.
I Corinthians 12:2 KJV
Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
There were issues then and now.
Back to your question.
Azusa Street Revival
1906 - 1915? Would have had visitors.
The following link adds some other dates:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_revival
And I should qualify when I said more Pentecostal (in the previous post). I was referring to the Acts day of Pentecost rather than the Pentecostal denomination / non denominational modern movement,
Population density and percentages are not my thing. Moves of God (like Jonah) are the way I think.
Kidneys seldom think like a liver.
eddif
Jim Parker
Member
Having spent 18 years in a Pentecostal denomination, I have a deep appreciation for the gifts of the Spirit including tongues and prophesy.
It was also my experience that a lot of tongues and prophesy was what I call "cultural." It was most often part of the culture of the denomination rather than an example of authentic manifestation of the gifts of the Spirit.
But, from time to time, I also experienced the "real thing" and now, as an Eastern Orthodox believer, I still pray in tongues and occasionally lay hands on the sick and they recover.
Man has a subconscious need to codify and control everything he experiences including the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I don't think the Holy Spirit submits to control and codification by people.
iakov the fool
J
Justicewolf
Guest
If I believe God can do all things I believe he can lead someone to speak a language they do not know in order to reach those who need to hear the gospel in their native tongue. And I believe he works miracles too as I have a family member who received one. I also believe that prophecy can arrive at his doing. Though God knows there are plenty of charlatans out there, and especially on TV, who make it necessary to discern with the wisdom of the Holy Spirit who those true prophets would be.
I think it does no good thing for me to say, God can do all things! And then proceed to argue in a topic like this what he can't do because someone thinks interpreting what someone not the apostle of Christ wrote to say otherwise.
God can do all things.
But not....? Really?
I think it does no good thing for me to say, God can do all things! And then proceed to argue in a topic like this what he can't do because someone thinks interpreting what someone not the apostle of Christ wrote to say otherwise.
God can do all things.
But not....? Really?
I Corinthians 12:4 KJV
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
I expect if I asked you to explain the office of administration, you would have a tough time explaining every in and out of the office. You sit in the office of administrator, and those called deeply need to fulfill their calling.
The same thing goes on when those who speak in tongues try to explain. The Holy Spirit is the source, and it is not totally by our will. Instructions are given to Gentiles.
The gifts are for the common good. Sometimes the church / individual just does not want to go there. In that case you are encouraged to go and speak privately with God (no one to interpret). Ultimately you seek a public explanation (not with the purpose of pride, but service). Are you tempted toward pride? Regretfully yes.
We see through a glass darkly.
Mississippi redneck
eddif
15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” Mark 16:15-18
Has the Gospel ceased?
JLB
godsquadgeek
Member
Butch5
Member
That's a pretty sloppy argument. I would have expected better of Grudem. Firstly he makes assumptions of what Paul meant rather than what Paul actually said. That right there defeats his exegesis. That Paul didn't include tongues with the cessation of prophecy and knowledge can be seen by the fact that Paul indicates that the cessation of tongues is in the middle voice where as the cessation of prophecy and knowledge are in the passive voice. The passive voice indicates that something will cause prophecy and knowledge to cease whereas the middle voice indicates that tongues will cease of their own accord. This fits what we see in Scripture. Tongues was a sign to unbelieving Israel. Once the Temple was destroyed there was no longer a need to warn of the coming destruction and thus tongues was no longer needed.
Jim Parker
Member
Ok
That's a new one for me.
Paul said that tongues, knowledge, etc. would cease "..when that which is perfect has come, ..." (1 Cor 13:10)
So, are you saying that the destruction of the temple is the arrival of "that which is perfect"???
I believe that which is perfect is the coming of the kingdom of Go at the time of Christ's return. It is then that tongues and prophesy and knowledge will no longer be necessary because we will be able to observe that which is perfect with our eyes.
iakov the fool
Butch5
Member
When Paul said tongues would cease he used a middle voice verb. A verb in the middle voice indicates that the subject is both doing and receiving the action of the verb. Essentially one is doing something to one's self. That means that tongues would cease of its accord. Prophecy and knowledge would cease (passive voice verb) when the maturity or completion would come.
It's my contention that these would cease when the faith was complete. The apostles were taught the faith over a period of time. Before Jesus left the apostles He told them that He had more to teach them, but they could not handle it yet. He told them that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. It's much contention that the gifts were no longer necessary once the apostles had a full understanding of the faith, when the faith was complete.
Jim Parker
Member
I don't care.
The idea that the gifts of the Spirit ceased because the temple was destroyed in 70 AD is, IMHO, absurd.
The idea that the gifts were given only for the purpose of converting Jews is patently false. Paul wrote to the GENTILE church about the gifts of the Spirit and said that they were given for the CHURCH which includes both Jews AND Gentiles. (1Cor 12:13)
And now, I think I'll follow Paul's advice to Titus at Titus 3:9-11.
You have a blessed day.
iakov the fool
Butch5
Member
Well if you don't care, why'd you respond to my post? Secondly, I didn't say the gifts ceased because the temple was destroyed. I said that was the reason tongues ceased, not the rest of the gifts. Thirdly, Paul said that tongues was for the unbeliever, not the believer.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Cor. 14:21-22 KJV)
And, if you go to Isaiah 28 that Paul is referencing you'll see that "this people" is Israel. In addition, I said also prophesied of Jesus.
13 Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
14 And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
15 And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
16 Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
18 Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.(Isa. 8:13-18 KJV)
Christ and the disciples were for signs and wonders in Israel.
But, you're free to believe whatever you want to.
So where, exactly, does the Bible say that tongues will cease when the Temple is destroyed? Did the people of Israel cease being the people of Israel when the Temple was destroyed?
Butch5
Member
Isaiah prophesied what tongues was.
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem. (Isa. 28:10-14 KJV)
To get the full sense of what he's saying you really need to read chapter 28-29. The prophecy is about the destruction of the priesthood at the time of Christ. In 1 Cor. 14 Paul alludes to this passage and says that tongues is for the unbeliever, not the believe.
Tongues (devoid of Godly understanding) are for unbelievers.
Wizards chirp and mutter, but underneath all that is no knowledge of the true God.
But
Hidden in and underneath the surface of creation and the Law are truths. Israel has truth even if they do not recognize it.
Jesus is the solid spiritual and physical reality that casts the shadows.
Colossians 2:16 KJV
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Tongues of the New Covenant are tied to scriptural interpretation. Tongues are not a stand alone mystery. Are there some issues? Does that void NC tongues? No.
Right now everyone sees through a glass darkly. One day (the day when heavenly eternal salvation begins) there is no need for tongues. The shadows are gone and the total reality is clearly seen.
Not enough scripture?
Redneck
eddif
Wizards chirp and mutter, but underneath all that is no knowledge of the true God.
But
Hidden in and underneath the surface of creation and the Law are truths. Israel has truth even if they do not recognize it.
Jesus is the solid spiritual and physical reality that casts the shadows.
Colossians 2:16 KJV
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Tongues of the New Covenant are tied to scriptural interpretation. Tongues are not a stand alone mystery. Are there some issues? Does that void NC tongues? No.
Right now everyone sees through a glass darkly. One day (the day when heavenly eternal salvation begins) there is no need for tongues. The shadows are gone and the total reality is clearly seen.
Not enough scripture?
Redneck
eddif
This website uses English as its primary language. It is in-fact a tongue. Hebrew and Greek are the original languages used. Interpretation is what we are doing.
Some of Christianity has used modern King James English for a long time. What did Druids use? What religions are actually tied to English? We should recognize our language shades we wear.
And Greek did not start out as a Godly language either. As far as all this goes, when did Hebrew start? Babel?
No one I hope is offended. The things o God are truly seen in what he created.
Romans 1:20
eddif
Some of Christianity has used modern King James English for a long time. What did Druids use? What religions are actually tied to English? We should recognize our language shades we wear.
And Greek did not start out as a Godly language either. As far as all this goes, when did Hebrew start? Babel?
No one I hope is offended. The things o God are truly seen in what he created.
Romans 1:20
eddif
Explorer55
Member
Great post!