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Changed from pretribulation to post-tribulation view of the rapture

There is no rapture, a separate occasion from the second coming where people mysteriously disappear. Its a fairytale.
It may be a fairy tale for you, but for the apostles and the apostolic churches it was a Blessed Hope. Still is for many Christians today.

As to *mysteriously disappear* that is precisely what Scripture says. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This is totally different from the Second Coming of Christ.

In the end it comes down to unbelief. People -- some Christians -- don't even believe that Enoch was raptured to Heaven! Even though the Bible states that clearly.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen 5:24)
Where would God take him except to Heaven?
 
Antichrist is anyone who opposes Christ and rejects Him.
True. But "THE Antichrist" is the ultimate antichrist, and even the Reformers could see that (as was noted earlier). Unfortunately they applied that title mistakenly to the pope (can't blame them since the RCC is false Christianity and practically anti-Christian).
Good grief, where do you get that it will be a Jew? How does a Jew come out of the revived Roman Empire.
Are you not aware that Jews are scattered throughout the former/revived Roman Empire? And the primary reasons he must be a Jew are (1) Orthodox Jews will only accept a Jewish Messiah (possibly claiming to have descended from David and from the tribe of Judah), not a Gentile pretender and (2) the Antichrist must have complete access to the future Jewish temple, where he will sit "as God" claiming that he is God, and commanding the whole world to worship him.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:3,4)
 
True. But "THE Antichrist" is the ultimate antichrist, and even the Reformers could see that (as was noted earlier). Unfortunately they applied that title mistakenly to the pope (can't blame them since the RCC is false Christianity and practically anti-Christian).

Are you not aware that Jews are scattered throughout the former/revived Roman Empire? And the primary reasons he must be a Jew are (1) Orthodox Jews will only accept a Jewish Messiah (possibly claiming to have descended from David and from the tribe of Judah), not a Gentile pretender and (2) the Antichrist must have complete access to the future Jewish temple, where he will sit "as God" claiming that he is God, and commanding the whole world to worship him.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess 2:3,4)


Can you explain how the resurrection and rapture can occur at His coming, but this is not the second coming?


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 1 Thessalonians 4:15


  • The resurrection of the dead in Christ comes before the rapture.

  • The resurrection of the dead in Christ, occurs at His coming.


For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24


How can the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which occurs before the rapture, take place before the tribulation, where He puts an end to all rule and authority?


Please reconsider your position, in this matter, and answer these important questions.





JLB
 
It may be a fairy tale for you, but for the apostles and the apostolic churches it was a Blessed Hope. Still is for many Christians today.

As to *mysteriously disappear* that is precisely what Scripture says. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This is totally different from the Second Coming of Christ.

In the end it comes down to unbelief. People -- some Christians -- don't even believe that Enoch was raptured to Heaven! Even though the Bible states that clearly.
By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)
And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. (Gen 5:24)
Where would God take him except to Heaven?
.... NOBODY in church history thought there was a pre-trib rapture.... that is one area you DONT want to go in (church history) if you are a pre-tribber. You got pseudo-ephraim from the 400s, and you got an out of context deceptive quote from Irenaeus which proves either pre-tribbers have never read Irenaeus who was as post-trib as can be, talked about facing the antichrist and all that, OR they are just straight up deceiving their followers.

They dont mysteriously disappear, there is a loud trumpet, second coming, all eyes seeing Jesus, dead in Christ rising first, then those who are aliv will be changed in a moment in a twinking of an eye. There is literally NOTHING in the Bible that separates rapture from second coming, not a single verse, you have not provided a single verse. So much for that "literal interpretation" huh? Its "implied" yet we "require explicit statements" well yes, because WE got the explicit statements of WHEN the rapture occurs, which is at the second coming, because its just a resurrection, thats it. We got explicit statements, you dont, time to reconsider your view???

The ironic "still is" ...... you do realize what you believe is absolutely new, if you werent living in the western world since the 1800s you would not believe in this.

You would think as much as the modern church rambles on about the rapture that there should be a TON of verses talking about the difference between the rapture and teh second coming. Yet there is not ONE verse pre-tribbers have to prove their system. NOT A SINGLE ONE. Its all just conjecture, manipulation of the text, mind games and deception while claiming "literal interpretation". It does make me sick.

On the post-trib side, there are a handful of EXPLICIT verses. Pre-trib got 0. hmm. Wonder whats that about?
 
Are you not aware that Jews are scattered throughout the former/revived Roman Empire? And the primary reasons he must be a Jew are (1) Orthodox Jews will only accept a Jewish Messiah (possibly claiming to have descended from David and from the tribe of Judah), not a Gentile pretender and (2) the Antichrist must have complete access to the future Jewish temple, where he will sit "as God" claiming that he is God, and commanding the whole world to worship him.

You need to go study the Diaspora to know in Leviticus 26:14-39 and Ezekiel Chapter 22 why the Jews were scattered by God to other nations.

Luke 21:24 Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be trampled upon by foreigners and that the people of Israel would be forced to excile and that happened in 70AD and also in 135 AD as during its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent after their 70 year captivity in Babylon when the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping as they continue to follow Judaism and receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The people were allowed back in the land and Israel was again formed; however, the people did receive punishment as the kingdom was taken away. Additionally, for approximately 2500 years, from 586 BC until 1948, the nation was under the authority of a foreign power. Israel never again had a king from the messianic line of David to sit and rule.

There will never be a third temple as God will not dwell in it even if it is built again for the third time. God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.
 
I predict Jesus's servants will be energized from on high .....
will not need to eat ordinary "food" .... nor even sleep, for that matter.

Hi John. I think you're on the right track here, though I think it's also important to consider that dying for our faith is an important part of Jesus' message that there is more to this life than just the physical.

It may even be that God will ask many of us to deliberately die to illustrate the point that we have something worth dying for. While God can (and does) provide for physical needs (like food and clothing), some of us may find ourselves in a situation where he asks us to starve to death in protest to the Mark.

This is why it is so important not to be afraid of death or to see death as some evil thing. As the saying goes...
To fear death is nothing other than to think oneself wise when one is not. For it is to think one knows what one does not know. No one knows whether death may not even turn out to be the greatest blessings of human beings. And yet people fear it as if they knew for certain it is the greatest evil.
 
You need to go study the Diaspora to know in Leviticus 26:14-39 and Ezekiel Chapter 22 why the Jews were scattered by God to other nations.

Luke 21:24 Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be trampled upon by foreigners and that the people of Israel would be forced to excile and that happened in 70AD and also in 135 AD as during its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.

God gave Israel 490 years to repent after their 70 year captivity in Babylon when the Medes and Persians conquered Babylon (Chaldeans) around 538 B.C. They were allowed back in the land and to rebuild the city of Jerusalem, however, they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping as they continue to follow Judaism and receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire. Malachi Chapter 1-4.

The people were allowed back in the land and Israel was again formed; however, the people did receive punishment as the kingdom was taken away. Additionally, for approximately 2500 years, from 586 BC until 1948, the nation was under the authority of a foreign power. Israel never again had a king from the messianic line of David to sit and rule.

There will never be a third temple as God will not dwell in it even if it is built again for the third time. God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on part of the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.
Bro may I ask you: Are you premill or amill? Same question to JLB
 
When Jesus returns as per Rev 19, the saved will be with Him.
He won't be coming to earth to "gather the elect" like He did in the era of ancient Israel.

There are a few things that happen around this time which kinda confuse the issues. There will be a return of Jesus where he gathers his people, which all sides usually refer to as the rapture.

According to Jesus this happens after the Great Tribulation and Paul describes it happening at the last of the 7 trumpets of tribulation. But, according to the Revelation there is still more to be done after the Great Tribulation, especially the 7 bowls of wrath. Tribulation and wrath are often mistaken as being the same thing, but there is an important difference. Tribulation is something God allows all his people to experience, whereas wrath is specifically directed at the enemies of God.

It appears that the marriage supper described in Revelation 19 is happening up in Heaven while the 7 bowls of wrath are being poured out on a rebellious (and spiritually desolate) world below. This coincides with the description of Jesus on the white horse gathering his army of followers wearing white robes (the same robes described earlier in the chapter being given to the bride of Christ) and going down for a great battle which is almost certainly the final bowl of wrath, a.k.a the battle of Armageddon.

This gives the appearance of a second coming of Christ, but it's not.
 
You need to go study the Diaspora to know in Leviticus 26:14-39 and Ezekiel Chapter 22 why the Jews were scattered by God to other nations.
And you need to study Ezekiel to know that they will be re-gathered to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.
Luke 21:24 Jesus prophesied that Jerusalem would be trampled upon by foreigners and that the people of Israel would be forced to excile and that happened in 70AD and also in 135 AD as during its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times.
So what? Do you know that Jerusalem will be redeemed and restored after the Second Coming of Christ?
they still did not repent for their sin of idol worshipping as they continue to follow Judaism and receive punishment from God as the kingdom was taken away and eventually taken over by the Roman Empire.
And yet God in His grace and mercy, and for the sake of His own name and covenant with Abraham, will offer them salvation in Christ after the Second Coming of Christ.
There will never be a third temple as God will not dwell in it even if it is built again for the third time.
The FACT is that Orthodox Jews are right now in the process of planning for the third temple in Jerusalem. And Bible prophecy requires that there be a third temple in Jerusalem which will be hijacked by the Antichrist. Of course God will not dwell in this temple, but for unbelieving Jews it will be the temple of God. It is more than likely that it will be destroyed at the end of the Tribulation or the beginning of the Great Tribulation, so that the fourth temple -- Ezekiel's temple -- will be built under Christ.

For Christians, the Church is the temple of God, but as you well know, unbelieving Jews are not Christians!
 
.... NOBODY in church history thought there was a pre-trib rapture....
If we include the apostles in church history (which is only fair) they consistently believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. Indeed, they taught the imminency of the Rapture, and I have already posted the appropriate Scriptures. What amazes me is that any Christian would object to this truth. Some of the Early Church Fathers also believed in this.

IRENAEUS IN AGAINST HERESIES: And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

CYPRIAN IN TREATISES OF CYPRIAN: “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

EPHRAIM IN ON THE LAST TIMES: Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
 
As to *mysteriously disappear* that is precisely what Scripture says. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. This is totally different from the Second Coming of Christ.

Here again you have Jesus returning twice. Don't know why you do not see this. Again, read the book of Enoch as he was never taken up to the third heaven, but only translated to the places of visions the angels showed him, not heaven.
 
The FACT is that Orthodox Jews are right now in the process of planning for the third temple in Jerusalem. And Bible prophecy requires that there be a third temple in Jerusalem which will be hijacked by the Antichrist.

Nah, prophecy does not require this. I may just be picking at semantics here (and possibly misunderstood your position) but I think it's important to keep it really clear that while we may have information about the future we are still responsible for the choices we make. The Jewish nation wants its temple back because they are obsessed with buildings; not because it's what God requires.

but for unbelieving Jews it will be the temple of God.

I doubt even this will be true. Jesus told a parable about self righteousness which started with, "The pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself..." Luke 18:11. It will be a monument to themselves even if they give lip service to God.
 
Bro may I ask you: Are you premill or amill? Same question to JLB

First I am a sister just to let you know. :) I do not label myself according to pre, mid or amill, but to only believe whether I am alive at His coming or a sleep in the grave His coming will be on the last day as He only returns one time, Matthew 24:29-31; John 5:28, 29; 6:40; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 19:11-21.
 
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There are a few things that happen around this time which kinda confuse the issues. There will be a return of Jesus where he gathers his people, which all sides usually refer to as the rapture.

According to Jesus this happens after the Great Tribulation and Paul describes it happening at the last of the 7 trumpets of tribulation. But, according to the Revelation there is still more to be done after the Great Tribulation, especially the 7 bowls of wrath. Tribulation and wrath are often mistaken as being the same thing, but there is an important difference. Tribulation is something God allows all his people to experience, whereas wrath is specifically directed at the enemies of God.

It appears that the marriage supper described in Revelation 19 is happening up in Heaven while the 7 bowls of wrath are being poured out on a rebellious (and spiritually desolate) world below. This coincides with the description of Jesus on the white horse gathering his army of followers wearing white robes (the same robes described earlier in the chapter being given to the bride of Christ) and going down for a great battle which is almost certainly the final bowl of wrath, a.k.a the battle of Armageddon.

This gives the appearance of a second coming of Christ, but it's not.

The great tribulation is God's great wrath being poured out into the world during the sounding of the seven trumpets which include the seven vial judgments against those who took the mark of the beast, Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

No one knows how long the first six trumpets will last, but at the sounding of the seventh trumpet the events of Rev 13 will take place for 3 1/2 years. The vial judgments are poured out on those at the end of 3 1/2 years that affects all who have taken the mark of the beast. Then immediately per Matthew 24:29 and Rev 19:11-14 will Christ return with His army of angels as He sends them out to the four corners of the earth to gather those alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves that are His own as they are changed and then caught up to meet Christ in the air.

Satan is bound for 1000 years, but this is not a literal 1000 years, but a figurative number as in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8. Revelation 20:1-8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that the premillinialists have as the basis for the "1000 year reign." Rev 20:4 doesn't speak about a 1000 year reign of Christ it says (remember this is only a vision John received) "and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." It's not Christ that reigns 1000 years, but those who were killed for God's sake that reign with Christ 1000 years.

After Satan is released he tries once again to destroy the saints of God as he gathers his demons from the four quarters of the earth to surround the camp of the saints, being the battle of Armageddon, but the demons are destroyed by fire sent down from heaven and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. The final act of God is the great White throne judgement, the earth and heaven made new again and the New Jerusalem ushered down where we will be with Christ forever.

This all happens on the last day when Christ returns as no one knows the actual length of time this will be as all things are done in the blink of an eye in God's timing, but yet all done on the last day.

Why do pretribbers not believe these scriptures posted below.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
 
And you need to study Ezekiel to know that they will be re-gathered to Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

So what? Do you know that Jerusalem will be redeemed and restored after the Second Coming of Christ?

And yet God in His grace and mercy, and for the sake of His own name and covenant with Abraham, will offer them salvation in Christ after the Second Coming of Christ.

The FACT is that Orthodox Jews are right now in the process of planning for the third temple in Jerusalem. And Bible prophecy requires that there be a third temple in Jerusalem which will be hijacked by the Antichrist. Of course God will not dwell in this temple, but for unbelieving Jews it will be the temple of God. It is more than likely that it will be destroyed at the end of the Tribulation or the beginning of the Great Tribulation, so that the fourth temple -- Ezekiel's temple -- will be built under Christ.

For Christians, the Church is the temple of God, but as you well know, unbelieving Jews are not Christians!

Again you give no scripture to support your theories, but yet ignore what has already been written.
 
If we include the apostles in church history (which is only fair) they consistently believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. Indeed, they taught the imminency of the Rapture, and I have already posted the appropriate Scriptures. What amazes me is that any Christian would object to this truth. Some of the Early Church Fathers also believed in this.

IRENAEUS IN AGAINST HERESIES: And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”

CYPRIAN IN TREATISES OF CYPRIAN: “We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”

EPHRAIM IN ON THE LAST TIMES: Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.

I believe no man, but only that which is already written in the scriptures. Just more theories you copy and past from whatever website you are using.
 
The Jewish nation wants its temple back because they are obsessed with buildings; not because it's what God requires.
Prophecy is not always about what God requires, but what God sees will come to pass. God and Christ see a future third temple in which the Antichrist will set up the Abomination of Desolation and also claim to be God. This is by God's allowance, and the Man of Sin will have just 42 months (3 1/2 years) in which to do his dastardly deeds.
It will be a monument to themselves even if they give lip service to God.
Once again you are looking at this from a Christian perspective (and I do not disagree). But unbelieving Jews (including Orthodox Jews) believe they are on the right track, and the true Messiah will appear either when this temple is built of just after. Indeed their expectation of Messiah is one of their fundamental beliefs.
 
I believe no man, but only that which is already written in the scriptures. Just more theories you copy and past from whatever website you are using.
I am NOT copying and pasting from any website, other than that of the King James Bible [online https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org]. And I am giving you what is written in Scripture, not the doctrines of men.

So if you truly believe what is written, then you will agree with what I have posted. I prefer to keep my posts brief, but I have been presenting appropriate Scriptures, not flights of fancy.
 
Again you give no scripture to support your theories, but yet ignore what has already been written.
I am simply summarizing what is in the Bible. I could fill "reams" of pages with the relevant Scriptures, but chances are that you (or anyone else who has been taught something else) will simply disregard them. If not tell me which passages you wish to see, and whether you will believe what is written there.
 
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