Church Throughout Revelations

[for_his_glory]

ok, 7 or more years before He plants His feet on Mt. Olive.
BTW, why are you so gun-ho in trying to disprove my belief? Is it because you have some doubts of your own?

I do not give timing to the seven trumpets sounding or the actual time of the return of Christ as scriptures says no one knows when He will return, but Jesus gave us plenty of signs to watch for in things that must come first before He returns.

I'm not so much disproving what you believe, but giving scripture for what has already been written. You have every right to believe how you want as I never ask anyone to believe me, but to take the scriptures I give and read them in the full context of what is already written about the second coming of Christ.

I use to believe all those pretrib theories, but could never find scripture to support their theories. One can not make scripture line up with their understanding, but need to line themselves up with what has already been written. So many, as even I at one time, believe we are out of here before the first trumpet of God's great wrath, but this is found nowhere in scripture. From the OP I have showed many many scriptures that state we will go through all things that must come first before Christ return in the air, which includes the son of perdition taking his seat in Jerusalem causing all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death as they refuse for their faith in Christ.

Believe you me as I wish I was wrong, but scripture says what it says on all of this. I teach end times in order to help prepare others for what must come first so we are not deceived by the lying signs and wonders that Satan will display for at this time there will be a great falling away.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

I believe the 70 weeks of Daniel are already past - they ran concurrently - there was never any GAP of 2000 years. Realizing this made me leave PreTrib years ago. There may be a "yet future" period of 42 months spoken of in Revelation, but it is not part of the 70 weeks of years; and I don't know quite how to take it.

I am in some sense Partial Preterist - the 70 shauvim are long gone - ending roughly with the stoning of Stephen and then Paul's conversion. Therefore to me there is no "7 years and then His feet on the Mt of Olives" -- I believe in an any-minute Return of Christ "as in the days of Noah" with people marrying, going about their business and then WHAM - its here.

No seven year waiting period - I am uncertain if 1000 year reign is literal or not - also uncertain if the TEMPLE aman of sin will sit in is literal or not. Paul spoke of a TEMPLE many times as not a stone temple but - US! So I am as "any minute" ready as any PreTribber - I studied John Nelson Darby, Edward Irving, read Emmanuel De Lacunza's book and Margaret Macdonald's vision - both of which ARE NOT PRE-TRIB AT ALL. The Scottish girl's vision is NOT PRE-TRIB - READ IT.

I no longer care about Red Heifers and a focus heavily on the Jews. In all honesty the Jews HAD THEIR SHOT and "all Israel being saved in a day" is another thing that may not be literal. Much of Revelation is non-literal - how many times can the stars fall from the sky ? How many times can all the grass be burned up? If God WANTS things to be pre-trib - He could make it happen - but I don't see it, don't buy into it. The time forecast for the Jews being slaves in Egypt - didn't it RUN CONCURRENTLY?

Away with these GAPS - Rubbish. "The prophetic clock stopped" - sheer nonsense. Dispensationalism FORCED a lot of things - does something NOT FIT? Punt it away into the time of "the Trib Saints" - force it into a literal millenium. Animal sacrifices to resume? Now come on,

 

[for_his_glory]

The seven year great tribulation, which is not found anywhere in scripture, was derived by mans misinterpretation of Daniel 9:24-27. This is what the Bible clearly reveals about the seventy weeks. From vs.24 to vs.27 was seventy weeks or 490 days (490 prophetic years when you add a day for a year principle), beginning with Ezra, Ezra chapter 1-6, rebuilding the temple to the time of the Messiah (Jesus Christ) being fulfilled in His birth, death and resurrection. In a sense it was a literal and spiritual temple that was being built. Ezra was teaching the people of the spiritual temple of God that indwelled in all that believed in God and of the coming of Messiah. There was actually a four hundred year span from Ezra till the birth of Jesus that God shut himself off from Israel because of their transgressions towards the Lord, Malachi Chapter 4, but saved a remnant that would believe in the coming of Messiah, Isaiah 10. As still today, God still waits for National Israel to repent and believe in the name of Jesus as they still follow Judaism.

Daniel 9:24-27 the Vision of the Seventy Weeks

Vs. 24 this verse shows us that the timing from Ezra to the cross was 490 days (490 Prophetic years) as within that time Ezra was reestablishing the law in Jerusalem until Jesus had fulfilled the end of transgression, made an end to sin, made reconciliation for iniquity and bring everlasting righteousness and to seal up the prophecy to fulfill parts of the law through the cross.

Vs. 25 from the time of the cross, which also means the last days, which includes what some like to separate and call “The Great Tribulation”, which is not mentioned anywhere in scripture and is not a separate event after the elect of God are caught up, but as the last days so we are in tribulation times until the end of the world as we know it, Acts 2:17; Hebrews 1:1,2; Matthew 24:4-31; Mark 13:24-31; Luke 21:5-36. These are just some of the scriptures that support that we will go through all things of Rev Chapter 6-21. Everyone will have opportunity to come unto salvation through Jesus Christ if they would only believe until the door of salvation is closed when Jesus calls us and we meet him in the clouds, which after this time no one can be saved, Matthew 25:10.

Vs.26 after 434 years that end in the year AD29 shall Messiah be cut off. Jesus was crucified after he was baptized in AD 29 three and a half years later. Jesus was cut off (killed) by the people of the Romans under Vespasian their prince that the Pharisees, Sanhedrin and the high priest who have favor with that destroy the city and the sanctuary (meaning Christ) and the end thereof shall be with a flood (Gods wrath) that will put an end to abominations by desolation or in other words a ruin to evil deeds. Daniel 9:27 explains the definitions of desolation of abominations or the ruin of evil deeds. There is no actual Desolations of Abominations where a so called Antichrist (emphasis on the capitol "A") will take a literal throne, but the desolation will be when the son of perdition, being the false prophet/last antichrist, tries to take his throne in Jerusalem, Daniel 11:36-45. Gods’ word never defines one great Antichrist, but says there are many antichrists, 1John2:18; 11 Thessalonians 2:1-12; Revelation 11:7. The seven years that some call the seven year tribulation means three and a half years beginning with the first six seals being the beginning of sorrows (first woe). The last three and a half years starting with the (second woe) with the sounding of the first trumpet and ending with the seventh trumpet that includes everything else written in Revelations that includes the time of Christ return for His Bride in Rev 19 up to the end when Satan is cast into the lake of fire with the beast and the false prophet and ends with the new Jerusalem being ushered down as then we will be with the Lord forever.

Vs.27 the 70th seven began with Christ baptism in AD 29 and three years later at the end of the first half of the 70th seven sacrifices and offering ceased because Christ hung on the cross. From the giving of the law in 458BC when Ezra went to establish the law, or to rebuild the spiritual city right to the cross where the first 69 sevens. The 70th seven is from the time of the cross until Jesus comes back in the air to call his Bride home and for the overspreading of abominations he will make desolate, or make an end to all who would not believe.

During its long history, Jerusalem has been destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times. The last siege and destruction of the 2nd Temple and the wall was in 70AD as a revolt led by Titus as he broke through the walls and destroyed the Temple in Jerusalem. The wall and the Temple were never rebuilt, nor will it be in the future. The Temple mount laid waste until the Dome of the Rock was built on it in 691AD by the caliph Abd al-Malik ibn Marwan. The Islamic control over the Dome of the Rock will never surrender the original temple mount back to the Jews.

The last decree to build and restore Jerusalem, including the building of the second Temple that took 49 days/49 prophetic years, came around 538BC with the decree given to Ezra by King Cyrus. Through much oppositions the city, walls and the second Temple were completed on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of King Darius II around 417BC as he reigned from 423BC to 404BC, Ezra Chapter 1-6. This was part of the vision given to Daniel as the full prophecy given to him is found in Daniel Chapters 9-12.

During the first six trumpets we read all the destruction that will befall earth and its inhabitants during God's great wrath being poured out into the world on those who are none of Christ as they refuse to repent. This will be worldwide which will cause much chaos and great fear in the hearts of those who have no understanding, Hosea 4:6, 7. They will be seeking a type of savior, yet rejecting the very Savior, Christ Jesus, who wants to save them.

During the sounding of the seventh trumpet they will accept this deceptive savior who is the son of perdition, 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, who will take his seat in Jerusalem on the very Temple Mount where the Dome of the Rock sits and even now is being refurbished. He will try and rule the nations for 3 1/2 years causing all to bow down and take its mark as he promises peace and safety displaying lying signs and wonders claiming he is God. Those who refuse will be taken captive and dealt with as many Christians will either become a slave or die a martyr's death, Rev 13.

Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21, At the end of the 3 1/2 years of the beast and its false prophet, Christ returns with His army (warring angels) from heaven and fights the final battle destroying the beast and false prophet by the spirit (word) of His mouth and the brightness of His coming, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, casting both into the lake of fire. Then will Christ destroy the remnant being those who followed after the beast out of the earth from every nation that have always followed and obeyed the beast.

Rev 19,20 This is the time of the gathering of the saints when Christ sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather all who are His that are asleep in the grave and alive at His coming, Matthew 24:29-31 as He then binds Satan for a time so he can not interfere with the gathering. Once we are gathered to Him Jesus lets Satan loose for a time to gather his army, which I believe to be his demonic angels, against the camp of the saints, but God consumes his army by fire sent down from heaven and Satan is then cast into the lake of fire. All those who have now been slain by Jesus are gathered with the rest of the dead and face God's final judgment as their names are not found written in the Lamb's book of life and are cast into the lake of fire.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

 

[DancesWithGnostics]

Lotta good stuff, for_his_glory

 

[for_his_glory]

Lotta good stuff, for_his_glory

If people would just take their time to study the word instead of believing man's theories then they would see the light of truth. I use to buy into all those pretrib teachings and watched many a Pastor teach on this only believing what they said, for after all they were Preachers, but learned they were only a bandwagon teaching to line their own pockets with every book they wrote or the donations they seek from others.

Oh the money I wasted on their books and actually sending them money.

 

[Son of Israel]

Prophecy;

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Fulfillment;

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

>>>1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. <<<

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? >>>But we have the mind of Christ.<<<

 

[for_his_glory]

Prophecy;

Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Fulfillment;

1Co 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

>>>1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. <<<

1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Co 2:16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? >>>But we have the mind of Christ.<<<

How are we to discuss with you if we know not your understanding of the church being here until the last day when Christ returns. Anyone can post scripture, but these are discussions to discuss the scriptures and share in what you believe.

 

[crossnote]

I do not give timing to the seven trumpets sounding or the actual time of the return of Christ as scriptures says no one knows when He will return, but Jesus gave us plenty of signs to watch for in things that must come first before He returns.

I'm not so much disproving what you believe, but giving scripture for what has already been written. You have every right to believe how you want as I never ask anyone to believe me, but to take the scriptures I give and read them in the full context of what is already written about the second coming of Christ.

I use to believe all those pretrib theories, but could never find scripture to support their theories. One can not make scripture line up with their understanding, but need to line themselves up with what has already been written. So many, as even I at one time, believe we are out of here before the first trumpet of God's great wrath, but this is found nowhere in scripture. From the OP I have showed many many scriptures that state we will go through all things that must come first before Christ return in the air, which includes the son of perdition taking his seat in Jerusalem causing all to take the mark of this beast or die a martyr's death as they refuse for their faith in Christ.

Believe you me as I wish I was wrong, but scripture says what it says on all of this. I teach end times in order to help prepare others for what must come first so we are not deceived by the lying signs and wonders that Satan will display for at this time there will be a great falling away.

I've pretty much been pre-trib since 1974 when I first came to the Lord. Although I have sat under Amil and Postmil teachers it has only solidified my conviction in the PreMil/Pretrib position. I have found beyond spiritualizing the text, more importantly they fail to see that God's unconditional promises to His covenant people can't be broken.
The purpose of the GT is not to drive the Church to repentance, but drive the descendants of Abraham-Isaac and Jacob to repentance. Thus Israel/the Jews will be put through great tribulation that many will come to repentance and cry out for help Jesus their Messiah thus ushering Jesus' return.
Let's face it, every view has it's shortcomings, but I have found this view brings together all of Scripture into a unified whole.

 

[for_his_glory]

I've pretty much been pre-trib since 1974 when I first came to the Lord. Although I have sat under Amil and Postmil teachers it has only solidified my conviction in the PreMil/Pretrib position. I have found beyond spiritualizing the text, more importantly they fail to see that God's unconditional promises to His covenant people can't be broken.
The purpose of the GT is not to drive the Church to repentance, but drive the descendants of Abraham-Isaac and Jacob to repentance. Thus Israel/the Jews will be put through great tribulation that many will come to repentance and cry out for help Jesus their Messiah thus ushering Jesus' return.
Let's face it, every view has it's shortcomings, but I have found this view brings together all of Scripture into a unified whole.

Like I said, I use to believe in pretrib. Everyone has the right to believe how they want and I would never force anyone to believe as I do. I just put the scriptures out there in hopes that others would study them separate from what they have been taught by others and give my understanding of them. Agree, disagree as it makes no difference to me nor does it affect our salvation, unless we become blinded by the lying signs and wonders that Satan will show by using the son of perdition and his Luciferian world system.

 

[crossnote]

The wall and the Temple were never rebuilt, nor will it be in the future.b

Could you explain what is going on in Ezekiel chaps. 40 through 48?

 

[for_his_glory]

Could you explain what is going on in Ezekiel chaps. 40 through 48?

Ezra 6:14-15 the Jews did not build the second Temple according to the vision Ezekiel received. Instead, God commanded his prophets Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi not to build the Temple according to Ezekiel's vision because it was intended to be an everlasting edifice connected with everlasting redemption, something the Israelites were not ready to receive after their exile from Babylon.

When the Jewish people emerged from exile at the decree of Babylon's King Cyrus their repentance was only partial and many of the Jews remained under foreign rule. The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

 

[crossnote]

Ezra 6:14-15 the Jews did not build the second Temple according to the vision Ezekiel received. Instead, God commanded his prophets Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi not to build the Temple according to Ezekiel's vision because it was intended to be an everlasting edifice connected with everlasting redemption, something the Israelites were not ready to receive after their exile from Babylon.

When the Jewish people emerged from exile at the decree of Babylon's King Cyrus their repentance was only partial and many of the Jews remained under foreign rule. The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed. The Temple Mount was taken over in 691 A.D. as the Arab nation built the Dome of the Rock and there has not been any other Temple built since that time on the original Temple Mount.

Sooo, will the Ezekiel Temple ever be built?

 

[for_his_glory]

Sooo, will the Ezekiel Temple ever be built?

IMO, there is no longer a need for a Temple built by hands for we are the Spiritual Temple of God.

The cornerstone for the new Temple was brought to Jerusalem on May 21, 2009 and still remains on the street. "Jerusalem Day" in 1967 was to celebrate the liberation of the Temple Mount, but there is a problem there as the Dome of the Rock sits on the Temple Mount. Baruch Ben-Yosel , chairman of the Movement to Restore the Temple, made it clear that the Temple had to be built in the exact spot where the Dome of the Rock sits.

There will never be a third Temple built by hands, Acts 7:48; Acts 17:24. When the veil of the Temple was torn from top to bottom after Jesus gave up the ghost, Matthew 27:50, 51, this symbolized that the sacrifice of Jesus and the shedding of his blood was now made for the atonement of sin and that all, Jew and Gentile, can come before Him as He is the only way to the Father, John 14:6.

There is no more veil for the Priest to enter into the Holy of Holies once a year to make atonement for Israel's sin, nor is there any more animal sacrifices as we are no longer under the Old Covenant nor the preaching of the law, but are under a new and better covenant of Gods grace through Christ Jesus as our High Priest, Hebrews 4:14-16. Jesus prophesied of the Temple being desolate and that no one will see Him again until His time comes meaning when He returns on the last day, Matthew 24:1, 2; Luke 13:34, 35, John 6:40.

God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands, Acts 7:48, 49, and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, Hebews 9:11-28; 10:1-4. Now the Dome of the Rock sits on the Temple Mount and was built around 692 AD. The Muslims will never give it over to Israel, plus the Dome of the Rock is being refurbished for the son of perdition (not a Muslim man) to come and sit on his throne on the very Temple Mount of God and will cause a great falling away from truth, Isaiah 14:12-14; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12.

Jesus fulfilled everything the temple stood for being the last sacrifical lamb taking away all the sin of the world. God no longer dwells in a temple made by hands, Acts 7:48-50; 17:22-31; Hebrews 10:7-18

Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

John 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

The church, (body of Christ) is the temple where God dwells by His Holy Spirit, Zechariah 6:9-15 (prophecy of coming Messiah); 1 Corinthians 3:16, 17; Ephesians 2:19-22, Galatians 3:19-29.

In 70AD the second temple was destroyed and put an end to the temple made by hands and the sacrifices made there. The Temple of God now dwells in all who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10.

 

[Norman]

I saw a video the other day where a Messianic Jew, using scripture, explained why it is God's will that a third temple be built! It was so out of my range that I'll probably have to watch it a few more times before I clue into what he was talking about. I like to be open-minded but this was a totally new concept to me.

 

[eddif]

I saw a video the other day where a Messianic Jew, using scripture, explained why it is God's will that a third temple be built! It was so out of my range that I'll probably have to watch it a few more times before I clue into what he was talking about. I like to be open-minded but this was a totally new concept to me.

I far more trust For_His_Glory
“God now dwells in all who are Spiritually born again and indwelled with the Holy Spirit, John 3:5-7; Romans 10:9, 10.”

eddif

 

[Norman]

I like to consider all possibilities...according to scripture.
Sometimes I'm given new revelation as a result. I don't know if I'd recommend this to others...I just try to be led by the Holy Spirit.
Yeshua dwells inside my heart
Inside my heart, inside my soul
He does restore my ev'ry part
He will not stop until I'm whole tc Hallelujah!

 

[eddif]

I like to consider all possibilities...according to scripture.
Sometimes I'm given new revelation as a result. I don't know if I'd recommend this to others...I just try to be led by the Holy Spirit.
Yeshua dwells inside my heart
Inside my heart, inside my soul
He does restore my ev'ry part
He will not stop until I'm whole tc Hallelujah!

I sure understand development over time.
At age 12 I understood repentance
At age 22? I understood Jesus died for my sins
And accepted him as savior.
At age 25? I was baptized in the Holy Spirit after a bath (bathtub type bath) reading the Bible while drying off.

So when I read the Great Commission I see:
John’s repentance baptism of sins against the Father
Jesus baptism into salvation
Holy Spirit baptism into receiving power to be a witness.

Not just a baptism ceremony about 3 persons, but a mental and spiritual knowledge / relationship with the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Plus a baptism for each. These can take place in 3 minutes as one baptism,or over the years as they occur.

Alright redneck where do you get all this? LOL
eddif

 

[Norman]

He's given it to me through various avenues...as He sees fit!
Red neck? Red neck? Just because I come from a long line of farmers on both sides...how did you know?
History, history
The only thing that we were ever meant to be
It's you for you, and me for me
Together we made history tc

Now does that sound like something a redneck would write? Lol

So I'm a country boy at heart...sue me! Lol

 

[choir loft]

I agree and also have the evidence of Ribera. I have always asked others if we are Raptured out of here before the seven trumpets of tribulation, then what is the purpose of God's wrath, the son of perdition, the mark of the beast or even a 1000 year if all us are are already caught up tp Christ. It would make no sense.

Your logic is impeccable.

This is why few will accept it. There's no logic in the rapture theory at all.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

 

[eddif]

He's given it to me through various avenues...as He sees fit!
Red neck? Red neck? Just because I come from a long line of farmers on both sides...how did you know?
History, history
The only thing that we were ever meant to be
It's you for you, and me for me
Together we made history tc

Now does that sound like something a redneck would write? Lol

So I'm a country boy at heart...sue me! Lol

I often sign with:
Mississippi redneck
eddif
So
I was commenting about where did eddif get the information.
Not Norman, but that is probably good to know.

Are you into grafting. Especially how gentiles are grafted into the Jewish heritage?
Mississippi redneck
eddif