I explained this with scripture in my post #111. Feel no need to explain it again.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Church Throughout Revelations
- Thread starter for_his_glory
- Start date
crossnote
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I see absolutely no justification in spiritualizing the text. It would mean...
The Temple of God has been crucified with Christ. The early Church paved the way to the Dark Ages through their misuse of allegories. Let's not make the same mistake.
In the twenty-fifth year of our exile, at the beginning of the year, on the tenth day of the month in the fourteenth year after Jerusalem had been captured, on that very day the LORD’s hand was on me, and he brought me there. In visions of God he took me to the land of Israel and set me down on a very high mountain. On its southern slope was a structure resembling a city. He brought me there, and I saw a man whose appearance was like bronze, with a linen cord and a measuring rod in his hand. He was standing by the city gate. He spoke to me: “Son of man, look with your eyes, listen with your ears, and pay attention to everything I am going to show you, for you have been brought here so that I might show it to you. Report everything you see to the house of Israel.”
(Eze 40:1-4)
crossnote
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Very strange. So God gives Ezekiel 8 chapters of a revelation of a temple and then scraps it (changes His mind) because ,according to you, the post exilic Israelites were not able to receive it. (note: although many Israelites weren't able to receive their Messiah, God still sent His Son.)
Who said Ezekiel's Temple was intended to be the 2nd Temple in the 1st place? Why can't it be the Millennial Temple, or?
Ezra 6:13 Then Tatnai, governor on this side the river, Shetharboznai, and their companions, according to that which Darius the king had sent, so they did speedily.
Ezra 6:14 And the elders of the Jews builded, and they prospered through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they builded, and finished it, according to the commandment of the God of Israel, and according to the commandment of Cyrus, and Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia.
Ezra 6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king.
The second Temple was built under Ezra’s leadership and Israel continued practicing Judaism and their Temple was desecrated as part of an effort to impose Greek-oriented culture and customs on the entire population. Roman rule refurbished the temple as Herod, Romans vassal king, rules the land of Israel. In 70 A.D. the Temple is once again destroyed and another one will never be built that God will dwell in it anymore.
What was written in Ezekiel 40-48 is prophetic of the Temple of God that is within us, 1 Corinthians 3:15. God no longer dwells in a Temple made by hands, Acts 7:48, 49, and this is why God left it desolate all these years when it was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD, Hebrews 9:11-28; 10:1-4.
crossnote
Member
I don’t buy it but thanks for your opinion.
Romans 3:1 kjv
1. What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
Example:
When the oracles of God were given to the Jews, most of it was own a natural level. God created plants having seeds, that reproduced
after their on kind.
The parable of the Sower let’s us know that seeds spiritualized are the Word of God.
I feel safe saying that is a safe spiritualization.
I can agree all spiritualization is not correct.
I can agree some spiritualization caused problems.
Just like I support the good Jewish persons (in spite of some being wrong), I support spiritualization as a good concept.
If we are the temple, then somehow spiritualization seems to have taken place.
If eddif is wrong that does not mean that the concept is wrong, it does not mean all physical temples are ignored. It does mean IMHO that seeds were elevated and physical temples can be elevated too.
eddif
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As far as the crucified Christ goes:
Jesus was the express image of the godhead bodily, Colossians 2:9
Jesus went to the temple, but was not the the temple.
Jesus found bad things going on in the temple.
We sin if bad things go on in us. I am not without sin. I should be about seeing that the quickening spirit is casting out the bad in me.
eddif
All I can do is give the full context of the scriptures and let everyone draw their own conclusions by reading them.
crossnote
Member
Jesus was Jewish whose lineage can physically traced back through the physical descendants of Abraham.
Jesus also literally fulfilled hundreds of Old Testament prophecies as He physically lived His life here on earth beginning with being conceived through a virgin and dying a horrible physical death.
Many martyrs have followed the same fate.
Allegorizing texts is a dangerous practice, promoted by Origin and other 'Church Fathers, who still thought in Platonic (Greek) categories.
crossnote
Member
True, and so...
For I am sure of this very thing, that the one who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. (Php 1:6)
crossnote
Member
Yes often there are both, as long as the physical; interpretation isn't jettisoned for the spiritual and the physical reading is the basis for the spiritual interpretation.
Many areas in scripture speak in literal terms, but yet there are also Spiritual implications.
The Church, which represents the bride of Christ through the Spiritual rebirth of John 3:3-6 by that of Romans 10:9, 10, are sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Ephesians 4:30, either asleep in their graves or alive at Christ coming. That day of redemption comes on the last day, John 6:40, when Christ returns and makes an end to all abominations (end to sin) as all Gods enemies will have then become the footstool of Christ, Psalms 110:1; Luke 20:42, 43 as they are destroyed forever and remembered no more and then Christ will reign here on the new earth with all the saints of God forever when this present earth and heaven pass away and God renews all things ushering down the New Jerusalem, Rev 21:1 2.
Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath during the seven trumpets sounding (great tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming
Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days
Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets
Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles
Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors
Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the beast out of the sea that gives power to the beast out of the earth as we are warned to not take its mark
Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children
Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. If Christ returns in pretrib rapture then at that time the door of Salvation will be closed.
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation as mystery Babylon has been described and destroyed as we have not yet been caught up to be with the Lord until the last day.
Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring through Gods mighty wrath and refusing the mark of the beast
Rev 20:4-6 these verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured all things before the coming of the Lord.
Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth when the books are opened
Many teach that the Church will be Raptured out of here before Gods wrath during the seven trumpets sounding (great tribulation), but according to these scriptures the body of Christ who are still alive at Christ coming will be here on earth during the time of the greatest tribulation this world has ever seen nor will ever see again, Matthew 24:21.
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Rev 3:5; 19:8 Jesus is showing us to look for the signs of his coming
Rev 5:13; 6:16,17 On earth and under the earth are those who are still here until the end of days
Rev 6:9-11 Note where John says fellow servants and brethren that should be killed as they were and we are in the midst of the seven seals right now heading towards the seven trumpets
Rev 7:13-17 Which came out of great tribulation; fulfillment of the gentiles
Rev 8:13 Three woes are war, earthquakes, and meteors
Rev 13:11-18 Here John is showing us about the beast out of the sea that gives power to the beast out of the earth as we are warned to not take its mark
Rev 14:14-20 The harvest of Gods Children
Rev 16:11,15 And they repented not. If Christ returns in pretrib rapture then at that time the door of Salvation will be closed.
Rev 18:23, 24 We have now come out of great tribulation as mystery Babylon has been described and destroyed as we have not yet been caught up to be with the Lord until the last day.
Rev 19:7,8 We have made ourselves ready by enduring through Gods mighty wrath and refusing the mark of the beast
Rev 20:4-6 these verses show that we went through much annihilation and endured all things before the coming of the Lord.
Rev 20:12-15 The Great White Throne judgment and Jesus judgment for the works we did or did not do for him here on earth when the books are opened
crossnote
Member
I believe my statement included that point, thanks.
crossnote
Member
These simply show that there will be believers on earth AFTER the Church is taken out. Don't forget the 144,000 Jewish believers (Rev 7) as well as the two witnesses who will be on earth during the G.T..
I should have said Spiritual symbolism to what is also literal. Revelations is very much like this being literal and also Spiritually symbolic.
The church is the church which is the whole body of Christ with He being the head of the body. Those in the grave and those who are alive at His coming. Jesus only returns once, not twice.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Thess 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Please show me a pretrib Rapture of the church in these verses.
crossnote
Member
I don't base it on verses like those but rather Scripture as a whole.
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. (Mat 16:18)
(This was said after the Jews rejection of Jesus, and shows the Church was to be a future entity separate from Israel).
Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. (Act 20:28)
(This shows how the Church was formed.)
Seeing the Church is a separate entity, I can go on and show verses on the scattering of Israel to all nations (due to their rejection) as well as their ingathering back to their Land culminating in their wholesale turning to receive the Messiah after passing through the fires of tribulation (Jacob's Trouble).
1 Thessalonians 5:9 (KJV) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(The Church is not destined for God's wrath which is coming on the world.)
When the Church learns to incorporate Israel into their 'systematic theology', the Scriptures will fit together better like a neglected jig saw puzzle.