Coexistent modalism...the true Trinity.

[Paul E. Michael]

the Father is not in flesh except in the Person of the Son

Either the Father is in flesh or the Father is not in flesh. You cannot have it both ways--both propositions cannot be true. Yet, by your word "except" you show that you desire each one of the two propositions of that pair of contradictories to be true.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

If you do not believe that Jesus is the great I AM (i.e. God the Father), you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

John 8:24 does not teach that you will die in your sins if you do not believe Jesus is God the Father. Rather, it teaches that you will die in your sins if you do not believe Jesus is God the Son. The ridiculous, heretical falsehood you're trying to hand us, here, is that if you do not believe the 2nd person of the Triune God is the 1st person of the Triune God, you'll die in your sins.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

But you should consider that if a spirit is testifying to you that you are a child of God when you deny the true Deity of Jesus Christ, that it may in fact be a deceiving spirit.

You deny the Person of Jesus Christ by wrongly calling God the Father "Jesus Christ", while never calling Jesus Christ "Jesus Christ".

 

[Cooper]

The Bible never uses your term "the Father come in flesh".

Since the Father is without flesh, your term "the Father without flesh" is redundant.

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ, Coming in the Flesh

1 John 4:2-3By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and

www.cgg.org

.

 

[Cooper]

Well, there are places for all the cults, but nothing for the disciples of Jesus.
.

 

[Free]

You did not include the word NOT in what you wrote.

It doesn’t matter that I didn’t include “not” in what I wrote. It says the very same thing. That’s how languages work—there can be more than one way to say the same thing.

You cannot say God is NOT Father, is NOT Son, is NOT the Holy Spirit.

I did not say any such thing. Please start reading what I actually wrote and quit twisting the wording. That has to stop.

To do so is to deny the Mighty God.
.

If a someone was actually saying that, but no one is.

 

[JLB]

Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8-9) and He is of flesh and blood (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

He became flesh.

Clearly if He became flesh then He was Spirit before hand then He became flesh.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The Word is the Son, not the Father.

• The Word is God, God the Son, not God the Father.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

• He was with God, in the beginning.

He was in the beginning with God.
John 1:2



He was God, in the beginning with the Father.


Jesus is YHWH the Lord God who became flesh and dwelt among us.

Jesus is the only begotten Son, of the Father.

Jesus the Son created all things.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10







JLB

 

[Cooper]

It doesn’t matter that I didn’t include “not” in what I wrote. It says the very same thing. That’s how languages work—there can be more than one way to say the same thing.


I did not say any such thing. Please start reading what I actually wrote and quit twisting the wording. That has to stop.


If a someone was actually saying that, but no one is

It doesn’t matter that I didn’t include “not” (Free)
The diagram says it and you keep publishing it.

I did not say any such thing. (Free)
The diagram says it, and you keep posting it.

If a someone was actually saying that, but no one is. (Free)
The diagram you continually promote says it.

If you do not like the word ‘not’ being applied to you, as is clearly the case, then why do you continually use the word ‘NOT’ with reference to God?

The diagram says God is NOT the Father, God is NOT the Son and is God is NOT the Holy Spirit?
That rules God out of existence. Nobody should ever deny God. If God is NOT Father, Son or Holy Spirit, then what or who is he?

His very existence is denied by that diagram, and to continually give your backing to it could amount to blasphemy.
.

 

[Free]

It doesn’t matter that I didn’t include “not” (Free)
The diagram says it and you keep publishing it.

I did not say any such thing. (Free)
The diagram says it, and you keep posting it.

If a someone was actually saying that, but no one is. (Free)
The diagram you continually promote says it.

If you do not like the word ‘not’ being applied to you, then why do you continually use the word ‘not’ with reference to God?

I simply cannot take you seriously anymore. You are intent on twisting everything that is being said about the doctrine of the Trinity, including the diagram. It is clear as day what the diagram shows and in no way whatsoever does it state what you are saying it does.

Why do you continually say God is NOT the Father, is NOT the Son, is NOT the Holy Spirit. This is a denial of God, and possibly blasphemy.
.

I have never said that, not once. The diagram doesn't say that either. Stop purposely twisting what is said. That is very un-Christlike behaviour.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus is God (Hebrews 1:8-9) and He is of flesh and blood (1 John 4:1-3, 2 John 1:7).

You quoted that and inserted your own thought. Now I will do the same.

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one (Person).



Nevertheless, I declare to you that I understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

So that I can give you this exhortation:

Eph 3:3, How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Eph 3:4, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


Consider.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jas 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Here we find the exclusivity of God being the Father.

So, if we interpret the scriptures algebraically, we can determine the meaning of John 1:1...

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with <the Father>, and the Word was <the Father>.

Which indicates that the pre-incarnate Word was the Father and that He was with the Father in that the same Person descended into time and then ascended again to exist Omnipresent and outside of time; thus, there is a 2nd Person in heaven who is the same Person (the Father) as the 1st. And the Word (being the Father) was with the risen and ascended Christ (who is also the Father) in the beginning.

You seem to be so fixated trying to bring your points that at times you do not even know you are agreeing with others as your intent seems to be you are right and everyone else wrong about this topic. Either one believes in all the Trinity/Deity scriptures that are found in the Bible, or they do not believe in the Trinity/Deity of Christ Jesus and refute it with a carnal knowledge. You are not refuting me, but all the scriptures I have given in my post #55 as none are of my own thoughts, but that of what has already been written. In my post are all the scriptures found in the KJV on the Trinity/Deity of Christ.

 

[Cooper]

I simply cannot take you seriously anymore. You are intent on twisting everything that is being said about the doctrine of the Trinity, including the diagram. It is clear as day what the diagram shows and in no way whatsoever does it state what you are saying it does.


I have never said that, not once. The diagram doesn't say that either. Stop purposely twisting what is said. That is very un-Christlike behaviour.

Can't you see the word 'NOT' three times repeated?

God is NOT this and God is NOT that.

For me, God is

God is my all-in-all. He is my everything.

God is my Rock, my Shelter, my Redeemer, my Saviour...
.

 

[Free]

Can't you see the word 'NOT' three times repeated?

Of course.

God is NOT this and God is NOT that.

No. That is not at all what it says. I have told you what it says and yet you still are intent on twisting things. Why is that?

God is my all-in-all. He is my everything.
.

That's great. Same for me.

 

[Cooper]

Of course.


No. That is not at all what it says. I have told you what it says and yet you still are intent on twisting things. Why is that?


That's great. Same for me.

And those three are One.​

 

[Free]

View attachment 15185

And those three are One.​

Which says the same thing as the diagram, without as many words.

 

[Cooper]

Which says the same thing as the diagram, without as many words.

Those three words that divide the one undivided God.
.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

Bible Verses about Jesus Christ, Coming in the Flesh

1 John 4:2-3By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and

www.cgg.org

.

Was that supposed to be relevant to what I wrote? If so, then in what way?

 

[justbyfaith]

The Bible never uses your term "the Father come in flesh".

The Bible never uses the word "Trinity" either; yet we are all here attempting to contend for what each of us believes about that doctrine.

Since the Father is without flesh,

Yes; and the Son is a distinct Person who is the Father come in human flesh (Isaiah 9:6, John 14:7-11).

By your phrase, "the same Spirit", are you denoting a person? If so, then which person are you denoting by it: the Father or the Son?

Both.

So, when you say the Father "is distinct from" the Son, which do you mean: that 1) the Father is NOT the Son, or that 2) the Father IS the Son?

The Father is a Spirit without flesh; while the Son is the same Spirit come in flesh.

And, when you say the Son "is distinct from" the Father, which do you mean: that 1) the Son is NOT the Father, or that 2) the Son IS the Father?

see above.

t's interesting that we can see you out of the one side of your mouth saying you are "contending against" the truth that the Father is not the Son, while, out of the other side of your mouth you pretend to agree with the truth that the Father is not the Son:

I said that the Father is not the Son, because this is true in that the Son is in flesh and the Father is not in flesh except in the Person of the Son. For the Father is a Spirit without flesh; while the Son is the same Person come in flesh.

Why can't you put a period immediately after "No, the Father is not the Son"? Are you trying to leave some sort of weasel loophole for yourself in case you later wish to say, "Yes, the Father is the Son (in that [blah blah blah])"?

Certainly. If the Bible teaches that, I do not want to exclude its possibility in my theology.

Either the Father is in flesh or the Father is not in flesh. You cannot have it both ways--both propositions cannot be true.

They can be; because the Father and the Son are distinct Persons.

The Son is "the Father in flesh".

The Father has "not yet" taken on an added nature of human flesh; except in the Person of the Son.

John 8:24 does not teach that you will die in your sins if you do not believe Jesus is God the Father. Rather, it teaches that you will die in your sins if you do not believe Jesus is God the Son.

What does it mean that Jesus is God the Son, except that He is the Father come in human flesh?

You deny the Person of Jesus Christ by wrongly calling God the Father "Jesus Christ", while never calling Jesus Christ "Jesus Christ".

I say to you truly that I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

He became flesh.

Clearly if He became flesh then He was Spirit before hand then He became flesh.

And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:14

The Word is the Son, not the Father.

• The Word is God, God the Son, not God the Father.

Consider.

1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Jas 3:9, Therewith bless we God, even the Father; and therewith curse we men, which are made after the similitude of God.

Here, we can algebraically determine the true meaning of John 1:1...

Jhn 1:1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with <the Father>, and the Word was <the Father>.

The Word, being the Father, existed with the Father in the beginning, in that He also descended into time and then ascended back into eternity; so that there are (at least) two Persons dwelling in eternity who are, in fact, the same Person.

Jesus is YHWH the Lord God who became flesh and dwelt among us.

Yet you say that Jesus is not the Father. YHWH is not the Father? The Lord God is not the Father?

You seem to be so fixated trying to bring your points that at times you do not even know you are agreeing with others as your intent seems to be you are right and everyone else wrong about this topic.

I do know that there are many instances where my belief is not in contradiction to statements made by certain Trinitarians. In those instances, I believe that they have not departed from the historical doctrine of the Trinity to worship a god who is distinctly mormon.

Either one believes in all the Trinity/Deity scriptures that are found in the Bible, or they do not believe in the Trinity/Deity of Christ Jesus and refute it with a carnal knowledge.

The creeds state that Jesus is uncreated; I will contend that according to Romans 1:3, Jesus is "made of the seed of David according to the flesh", and that according to Luke 1:35, He is begotten in the incarnation.

You are not refuting me, but all the scriptures I have given in my post #55 as none are of my own thoughts, but that of what has already been written.

I do not disagree with many of your thoughts on the matter.

Which says the same thing as the diagram, without as many words.

The shamrock thing does not teach that "the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost". It connects them in the middle.

 

[Free]

Those three words that divide the one undivided God.
.

Actually, it doesn't. It is among the worst analogies for a few reasons:

1. It completely separates the persons.
2. All the persons attach to a stem, which would have to be another person or something else.
3. All the leaves can be detached, which would teach polytheism.
4. Even just considering the three leaves, left on the stem, it teaches that God is tripartite.

The shamrock thing does not teach that "the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost". It connects them in the middle.

It certainly does, and even worse.

 

[Paul E. Michael]

The shamrock thing does not teach that "the Father IS NOT the Son IS NOT the Holy Ghost". It connects them in the middle.

Of course it teaches that the Father is not the Son, etc. The leaf on the left is NOT the leaf on the top is NOT the leaf on the right. Can you really keep a straight face while saying that the connection of the three leaves indicates that the leaf on the left IS the leaf on the top?

 

[Cooper]

Actually, it doesn't. It is among the worst analogies for a few reasons:

1. It completely separates the persons.
2. All the persons attach to a stem, which would have to be another person or something else.
3. All the leaves can be detached, which would teach polytheism.
4. Even just considering the three leaves, left on the stem, it teaches that God is tripartite.



It certainly does, and even worse.

None of that is a problem. You separate the persons with the words "is not."
All the persons are joined one to another, which Father, Son and Holy Spirit are. God is One. You say no, which to my mind is heresy. Wrongly dividing scripture. The Bible says many times God is One.
Jesus left heaven's glory (detached). You detach them by saying one "is not" the other.
And what is wrong with teaching God is tripartite? You are a Trinitarian are you not.
.