Conception and Birth of Believers

[FreeGrace]

I see vessels of wrath as those absent of anything redeemable, void of goodness or light, or in other words, filled with everything ungodly and unrighteous.

Regardless of how one "sees" the phrase "vessels of wrath", I gave you the real meaning of "prepared".

I agree with you that vanity is not a creation of God. It doesn't mean He did not foresee that it would arise, and had prepared vessels for it.

Where did "vanity" enter the discussion? Since I provided the real meaning of katartizo, it should have been clear to you that these vessels were NOT 'prepared' for destruction. They were retro-fitted.

IOW, no one is created for destruction.

 

[gr8grace3]

Good post gr8grace3.Despite the occasion for semantics, it seems you and I are fellowshipping and edifying one another in the Truth that comes from God and not from men.
I like you calling the concluding in disobedience a blessing. You see a big picture to say that. Now just one little thing that remains unresolved that is still hidden in the semantics of words. Does God not allow some to believe according to His discretion of mercy? Is Paul right in suggesting that, God as the Potter, can prepare vessels for wrath? Romans 9:21.

First, the relevant verse in yours and my discussion is Rom 9:14~~
New International Version
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
New Living Translation
Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
English Standard Version
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
New American Standard Bible
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
King James Bible
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

So , Yes God can prepare a vessel for wrath. His Justice demands wrath for anyone that does not believe and He has Righteous norms and standards that He will follow For the unbeliever. I believe that you are confusing "create" a vessel for wrath and "prepare" a vessel for wrath.

If He "Created" a vessel for wrath and "created" another vessel for mercy Rom 9:14 would not have been written in His Word.

That lump of clay is actually our freewill. And He has every right to "prepare" us the way He sees fit according to the way we use our freewill,And according to the norms and standards that His Sovereignty established.

20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

"Cleanses"~~
ekkaqairw 1571 aor act sub 3s ---verb purge 4

Cleanses is in the active voice. Which expresses that the subject is choosing.

 

[childeye]

lol. The word has a totally different meaning depending on whether it is capitalized or not.

This is True. Suffice it to say that God is good, and everything contrary to that is a lie.

 

[childeye]

Regardless of how one "sees" the phrase "vessels of wrath", I gave you the real meaning of "prepared".

Yes you did, which I did not disagree with as pertains to my understanding of what you meant and despite the occasion for semantics in what you said.

Where did "vanity" enter the discussion? Since I provided the real meaning of katartizo, it should have been clear to you that these vessels were NOT 'prepared' for destruction. They were retro-fitted.

IOW, no one is created for destruction.

As I said I did not disagree with you and the intention of your meaning. Vanity enters the discussion because God does not create vanity/futility. Vanity is the usurping of what God has created. For example, every lie is gains it's power through the usurping of what is True.

 

[childeye]

First, the relevant verse in yours and my discussion is Rom 9:14~~
New International Version
What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
New Living Translation
Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
English Standard Version
What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means!
New American Standard Bible
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
King James Bible
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

So , Yes God can prepare a vessel for wrath. His Justice demands wrath for anyone that does not believe and He has Righteous norms and standards that He will follow For the unbeliever. I believe that you are confusing "create" a vessel for wrath and "prepare" a vessel for wrath.

If He "Created" a vessel for wrath and "created" another vessel for mercy Rom 9:14 would not have been written in His Word.

That lump of clay is actually our freewill. And He has every right to "prepare" us the way He sees fit according to the way we use our freewill,And according to the norms and standards that His Sovereignty established.

20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

"Cleanses"~~
ekkaqairw 1571 aor act sub 3s ---verb purge 4

Cleanses is in the active voice. Which expresses that the subject is choosing.

And here we come to the issue that is at the heart of any disagreement between us, one little word placed in front of the term will. You are willing to defend the term "free" will while I find the term to be an equivocation. Please note I never said God created vessels of wrath. I mentioned Paul's hypothetical that God as the potter could prepare vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor depending upon his desire to want to show His wrath.

But of course, we have come to this as was probably anticipated by both of us. This is Greggs thread and I was not wanting to be accused of derailing it by turning it into a discussion about free will, despite it's relevance. Gregg is clever enough, thanks be to God, that he said let's scrap the dictionary meaning of the term free will and stick with scriptural descriptions of the term "will". I, of course, was all for that since I find the term free will to be an equivocation which impairs the mind from being able to perceive the Gospel.

But Gregg is also clever enough to know free will is relevant, and he has even said so. He just wants to keep it in the parameters consistent with the topic of this thread. Here you have brought it up and I am therefore disposed to discuss it.

So here is the equivocation. The term "free" is a relative term. It derives it's meaning from that which it is free of. But free will claims freedom from many things, even opposing things such as God and consequently the absence of God, which is the state of being in sin. That is, that man sits in some place where he chooses freely to serve sin by freely denying to serve God. But yet chooses freely to serve God by freely denying to serve sin. It claims a freedom on one side while at the same time denying servitude on the other. Therefore it is in fact a servant of one while claiming freedom from the other. With this equivocation, the mind can then reasonably claim a freedom of the will and deny servitude of the will, no matter which way it chooses, when in fact those choices are based on a dualism of masters and an altering dualistic fidelity. Consequently, the mere fact that a choice is available between God and sin constitutes a free will in the mind of the believer of a free will. It doesn't matter that the occurrence of available choices has absolutely nothing to do with the person whose will it is. Nor is it recognized that free will is simply describing the occurrence of a lie opposing the Eternal Truth or rather posing as a false or alternative truth.

For this unbeliever of free will it is not so. The fact that a choice is available, does not mean the will is free. To this unbeliever in free will, the will is actually the desire of the person, not the presence of available choices. And that the desire of the person is predicated on the image of god existing in the heart of that person. Consequently, a corrupt image of god creates corrupt desires and sinful choices.

Scripture presents two spiritual powers. One is darkness and one is Light. One is false and one is True. They are based on opposing images of God. One image of god is a character that would sacrifice others to save himself. That image was introduced in the garden of Eden by Satan and is the god of this world, 2 Corinthians 4:4 . The other image of God is of a Character that would sacrifice Himself to save others. That was introduced by God through Jesus, His Christ. These are the polar opposites, Light and darkness. To me it is all about knowing what believing in Christ means.

I am not arguing that a man chooses. I am arguing that cleansing is believing that God is like Christ. The will then desires and chooses according to one's measure of faith.

 

[gr8grace3]

I mentioned Paul's hypothetical that God as the potter could prepare vessels, some for honor and some for dishonor depending upon his desire to want to show His wrath.

This is the point of contention. Scripture shows that you are in error. He prepares vessels according to what we choose to do with our freewill.

20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor. 21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.

He does not prepare vessels depending upon His desire to show His wrath. He uses vessels that have made bad freewill choices to show His wrath.
The god you describe is unjust,unrighteous and is to small to handle mans freewill. He does not have the character and nature of the God I know.

 

[childeye]

This is the point of contention. Scripture shows that you are in error. He prepares vessels according to what we choose to do with our freewill.

A free will cannot cleanse it's self by definition. It has nothing to be cleansed of.

He does not prepare vessels depending upon His desire to show His wrath. He uses vessels that have made bad freewill choices to show His wrath.

The free will theology is meant to justify God's wrath according to a man's choices. As I said, I am not arguing that men don't make good and bad choices. I'm debating what is behind those choices, whether its a free will or a will ruled by darkness. So that if a man loves the darkness his choices reflect that.

 

[gr8grace3]

A free will cannot cleanse it's self by definition. It has nothing to be cleansed of.

The free will theology is meant to justify God's wrath according to a man's choices. As I said, I am not arguing that men don't make good and bad choices. I'm debating what is behind those choices, whether its a free will or a will ruled by darkness. So that if a man loves the darkness his choices reflect that.

Why do you not address the scripture that was posted?

 

[gr8grace3]

[QUOTE="childeye, post: 1059671, member: 1374The free will theology is meant to justify God's wrath according to a man's choices.[/QUOTE]
No, Freewill shows that Gods wrath is justified.

Gods wrath is Just and righteous according to mans freewill with the standards that He has established.

Gods Mercy is just and righteous according to mans freewill with the standards that He has established.

Acts 16:31~~"believe"~~
pisteuw 4100 aor act imp 2s ---verb I believe 4

Active voice. Expresses the subject(believer) made the act of believing.

 

[FreeGrace]

A free will cannot cleanse it's self by definition. It has nothing to be cleansed of.

A free will cannot do anything. There is no power in a will. There is only choice. For example, one can confess their sins or not. One can believe the gospel promise of God or not. People treat free will as though it has some kind of power to do things. It has no power. Making a choice doesn't require power.

The free will theology is meant to justify God's wrath according to a man's choices.

Wrong. Free will theology comes from Scripture, which teaches that God offers mankind choices, and the consequences of such choices. Deut 11 and 30 are clear examples of the choices that God gives to man.

As I said, I am not arguing that men don't make good and bad choices. I'm debating what is behind those choices, whether its a free will or a will ruled by darkness. So that if a man loves the darkness his choices reflect that.

Then you may quit your attack on free will. You just acknowledged where man's choices come from: what one loves.

Choices come from the heart. Not from "darkness". Darkness may influence choices, but doesn't cause them.

The tired, but frequent claim that "the devil made me do it" is just an excuse for one's actions, as if it wasn't their fault.

But all of our choices are our fault. We cause our choices. No one else does.

 

[JLB]

Great scriptures Gregg. Some people have a problem with such a concept because it eliminates what the dictionary describes as free will. And without free will and free choice, then God becomes the author of sin. This brings forth in believers of free will, a passion to defend God. They reject such interpretation of scripture and resign to taking the responsibility for sin upon themselves rather than believe God would make people sin. So through this line of reasoning either man is to blame for sin via a free will or God is blamed for predestining man to be a sinner.

Since Satan plays both ends against the middle, he wins either way. For Satan ends up being able to place doubt on the Character of God through that image that is in man, or that Image of Creator that is in heaven.

But the Christ destroys such doubt since in him is the true Image of God both in heaven and in mankind. In other words there is a scenario where neither God nor man is to blame for sin which only the pure of heart will see and believe.

Therefore, the truth is that there is a scenario where neither man nor God are to blame. And this is a mystery revealed and contained in the Gospel of Christ. Where God remains Holy and mankind is delivered Holy and blameless, while the works of Satan are defeated.

Man is to blame for sin, which is disobedience to God.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

One man's disobedience brought sin upon all men.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19


JLB

 

[Gregg]

I understand what you mean. The way you framed the second question required an answer of no. The problem I anticipated by answering yes to that question, was the inevitable question of, how does the Person of God fit into a single cell organism?

Man is more than a 'single cell organism,' even more than a body of flesh; man is comprised of a body, a soul, and a spirit. The questions to be anticipated here are 'When and how does God dwell in the heart of believers?

childeye, freegrace, and gr8grace3,

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above? What in a man causes him to choose to place his faith in God?

 

[gr8grace3]

A free will cannot do anything. There is no power in a will. There is only choice. For example, one can confess their sins or not. One can believe the gospel promise of God or not. People treat free will as though it has some kind of power to do things. It has no power. Making a choice doesn't require power.

Great to have this expressed clearly and precisely. Thank you.

 

[gr8grace3]

Man is more than a 'single cell organism,' even more than a body of flesh; man is comprised of a body, a soul, and a spirit. The questions to be anticipated here are 'When and how does God dwell in the heart of believers?

childeye, freegrace, and gr8grace3,

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above? What in a man causes him to choose to place his faith in God?

Hello Gregg. My simple answer is this.....Ecclesiastes 3:11
New International Version
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the human heart; yet no one can fathom what God has done from beginning to end.
New Living Translation
Yet God has made everything beautiful for its own time. He has planted eternity in the human heart, but even so, people cannot see the whole scope of God's work from beginning to end
English Standard Version
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
New American Standard Bible
He has made everything appropriate in its time. He has also set eternity in their heart, yet so that man will not find out the work which God has done from the beginning even to the end.
Nothing can fill that void except for God.Nothing is eternal except for God. So whether we realize it or not we are searching for that eternity that God has placed in our hearts.

 

[FreeGrace]

Man is more than a 'single cell organism,' even more than a body of flesh; man is comprised of a body, a soul, and a spirit. The questions to be anticipated here are 'When and how does God dwell in the heart of believers?

Scriptures declare that the Holy Spirit indwells people when they believe in Christ. Gal 3:2,5. And Jesus indicated that He would be with us (believers) forever.

childeye, freegrace, and gr8grace3,

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above? What in a man causes him to choose to place his faith in God?

My view is that man's will has nothing to do with being born from above? Jn 1:13. When a person places their faith in Christ for eternal life, being born again isn't even necessarily in view from the perspective of the one believing.

It is clear that God gives new birth to those who believe only, but one's act of believing doesn't cause the new birth. God causes the new birth.

To your second question, that has been, and will continue to be, debated until the end of time. My view is that God created humanity with an intellect with which to reason. So everyone generally has that ability within himself, not that everyone uses that ability.

So, God has promised eternal life (1 Jn 2:25) through faith in Christ (Jn 6:40). So, from one's intellect, they can reason this out. Does God exist, in the first place? Per Rom 1:18-20, not only does He, but He has demonstrated His existence and divine attributes to everyone, so that no one has any excuse.

So, one can either reason that He exists or not. If they reason that He doesn't, the promise doesn't even come up. But those who do recognize that He exists, they then have to determine whether His promise of eternal life is reasonable.

Either way, man has no excuse for his wrong choice. His God given intellect condemns him.

 

[childeye]

Why do you not address the scripture that was posted?

It seems to me that you are using the scripture to contradict an interpretation that is not mine in the first place, referring to what Paul said about God being the potter. Nothing you provided refutes that God is the Potter. To me the scripture you provided simply says that if you are filled with the true Image of God you will be cleansed of a false image of god. Obviously, the vessels of honour hold honorable things.

 

[gr8grace3]

Scriptures declare that the Holy Spirit indwells people when they believe in Christ. Gal 3:2,5. And Jesus indicated that He would be with us (believers) forever.


My view is that man's will has nothing to do with being born from above? Jn 1:13. When a person places their faith in Christ for eternal life, being born again isn't even necessarily in view from the perspective of the one believing.

It is clear that God gives new birth to those who believe only, but one's act of believing doesn't cause the new birth. God causes the new birth.

To your second question, that has been, and will continue to be, debated until the end of time. My view is that God created humanity with an intellect with which to reason. So everyone generally has that ability within himself, not that everyone uses that ability.

So, God has promised eternal life (1 Jn 2:25) through faith in Christ (Jn 6:40). So, from one's intellect, they can reason this out. Does God exist, in the first place? Per Rom 1:18-20, not only does He, but He has demonstrated His existence and divine attributes to everyone, so that no one has any excuse.

So, one can either reason that He exists or not. If they reason that He doesn't, the promise doesn't even come up. But those who do recognize that He exists, they then have to determine whether His promise of eternal life is reasonable.

Either way, man has no excuse for his wrong choice. His God given intellect condemns him.

Gol darn freegrace! Are You sure your gift is not pastor teacher? Thanks for all your posts and your study, you have challenged me to be more precise and go deeper into doctrine. It is a blessing to have you here.

 

[childeye]

[QUOTE="childeye, post: 1059671, member: 1374The free will theology is meant to justify God's wrath according to a man's choices.

No, Freewill shows that Gods wrath is justified.

To be clear, God's wrath is against the worship of false gods, ungodliness is the byproduct of not esteeming God as God. His wrath is justified because all that is Godly in mankind, anything good, anything wholesome, anything beautiful, are His attributes as our Creator. Romans 1:19- 21.

How men ever came to believe that such treasures were up to our discretion is the unthankfulness that darkens the heart.

 

[childeye]

Man is more than a 'single cell organism,' even more than a body of flesh; man is comprised of a body, a soul, and a spirit. The questions to be anticipated here are 'When and how does God dwell in the heart of believers?

childeye, freegrace, and gr8grace3,

How does the will of a man effect and/or influence his being born from above? What in a man causes him to choose to place his faith in God?

Are these two different questions or is the second a rephrase of the first?

 

[childeye]

Man is to blame for sin, which is disobedience to God.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned. Romans 5:12

One man's disobedience brought sin upon all men.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous. Romans 5:19


JLB

So then, Jesus didn't die to destroy the works of the devil? Do you willingly and freely disobey God? Are you agreeing with the accuser of the brethren who was thrown out of heaven?