Conception and Birth of Believers

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"So it seems your view is that God chooses who will believe. Correct?"

In a manner of speaking, yes. He chose the lowly and foolish to put to nothing the wise. We've discussed this before. 1 Corinthians 1:27.

Why do you qualify your answer? What does "in a manner of speaking" mean? 5 point Calvinism believes that God elects to salvation unconditionally. If that were so, then our faith is not a condition by which God saves us. For them, receiving salvation and receiving faith is synonymous and simultaneous. Kinda like 2 gifts in the same package, "in a manner of speaking". ;)

However, I'm unable to find any verses that support the idea that God chooses who will believe. If that is so, then there is no reason at all to evangelize because God has already chosen who will believe.

What verses support your view? 1 Cor 1:27 doesn't because it simply states the kinds of people he chooses. And the text says nothing about being chosen for salvation.

 

[childeye]

This is what I said:
"True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12"

John 1:9 doesn't negate 1:12. Jn 1:7 says that John the baptizer came to testify to that light. Why? So that through Him (Jesus) all men might believe.

1:9 says that Jesus "gives light to every man". What He gives must be received. And how does one receive? Those who believe, receive, per 1:12.


You've not yet supported your claim from Scripture.

Jesus Christ is the Light, and He isn't in anyone who hasn't believed in Him. I've just supported my claim from Scripture.

If you're saying the Word that created all things is not the Light of man, then I disagree. I agree John 1:9 doesn't negate 1:12. The difference is that 1:9 is referring to the Word, whereas Jesus is the Word come in the flesh. I've supported my claim completely. In fact it's common sense that since God created man, God is inside the man. In fact you just got finished saying this," What we can't forget is that God has already revealed Himself and His attributes through creation." (Rom 1:18-20)

 

[childeye]

I said this:
"So it seems your view is that God chooses who will believe. Correct?"

Why do you qualify your answer? What does "in a manner of speaking" mean? 5 point Calvinism believes that God elects to salvation unconditionally. If that were so, then our faith is not a condition by which God saves us. For them, receiving salvation and receiving faith is synonymous and simultaneous. Kinda like 2 gifts in the same package, "in a manner of speaking". ;)

However, I'm unable to find any verses that support the idea that God chooses who will believe. If that is so, then there is no reason at all to evangelize because God has already chosen who will believe.

What verses support your view? 1 Cor 1:27 doesn't because it simply states the kinds of people he chooses. And the text says nothing about being chosen for salvation.

I qualified my answer so that you know what I mean when I say God chooses, not what Calvinists mean. Having said that, I am not familiar with Calvin's teachings, so I wouldn't comment on what I don't know. I've told you this before.

However I will say that if you are right about Calvinist teachings, then I understand the issue you have with the necessity of preaching the Gospel, or rather the lack of need for preaching the Gospel. I could say a lot about this, which would take some time and effort I am not prepared to invest at this moment. I would however say this on that point. The Word came into the created world, which means it is able to affect the creation from inside of time, which the Word has created from the beginning of time. This creates multiple layers of connotations wherein the word predetermined can be applied. As such it is difficult to sort through these. In fact terms used from an Eternal perspective typically don't fit with temporal inferences. In other words there are bound to be misunderstandings.

 

[childeye]

And so the LORD saves us past [when we were born from above], present, and future.

"by grace you have been saved [perfect <past action w/ continuing results> passive participle, ]" (Eph 2:5, 8 ESV).
"but to us being saved [present passive participle], it is the power of God" (1Cor 1:18 LITV).
"much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved [future passive indicative] by His life;" (Rom 5:10 LITV).

- - -

For those who think that their own action can effect the state of their salvation once they are born from above, please notice that all of the verbs above for 'saved' are in the passive; meaning that the saving action was, is, and will be by a third party, by the LORD Himself.


.

So you're saying every facet of salvation is accomplished by God?

 

[Gregg]

So you're saying every facet of salvation is accomplished by God?

I am not sure what you mean by 'every facet of salvation' because salvation is one thing; it is of God and accomplished by him. A man does not accomplish anything regarding his eternal life in Christ; neither by his own power, work, or merit.

If a man can accomplish even one 'facet' of his salvation, then it is not of God; but of both God and man. And that is not the case as presented in the Scriptures and as briefly touched upon in post #84. Our past, present, and future salvation is of the LORD; that is His beginning of it, His preservation [upholding, sustaining] of it, and His bringing it to completion [perfection].

If you are thinking that our obedience and our believing are facets of our salvation, then I would disagree. Yes, our obedience and believing are prerequisites, but faith is characterized as a channel [Gk. dia, such as 'by faith' or 'through faith'] of the act of God's salvation, and not the act of salvation itself. Our salvation rests solely upon the completed work of God in His Son Jesus Christ (Heb 12:2, Php 1:6), and it is His work that we believe (Jn 3:21, Jn 6:29), not ours (Rom 4:5).

Where is a man's accomplishment in this: "No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6 b); and
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . . " (John 6:44 a).

- - -

When a person stands before God and gives account to Him, will he claim any accomplishment regarding salvation? Will he lay claim to his faith and obedience apart from the grace of God?


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[Fish Catcher Jim]

Could you provide passages that clearly address this idea?


Here is the verse:
"in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God."

I don't see where it says anything about a "false image of god". It speaks of Satan, referred here as the "god of this world", who blinds the minds of unbelievers.

However, Rom 1:18-20 speaks of the fact that God has revealed His attributes so that no one has any excuse for not being thankful to the Creator.

The only people Satan has blinded are those who weren't interested in the first place.

Consider 2 Thess 2:10,11 - 10"and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false"

What does "for this reason" refer to, at the beginning of v.11? It refers back to v.10 and those who didn't love the truth. It was for that reason that God sends upn them a deluding influence.

Again, it all goes back to choice. God HAS revealed Himself so that no one has any excuse. But not everyone pays attention to what God has revealed. It is to those who didn't pay attention beause they didn't care, who are deluded by Satan and given a deluding influence.

:amen

 

[FreeGrace]

If you're saying the Word that created all things is not the Light of man, then I disagree.

You are free to disagree with anything, but this is what I said:
This is what I said:
"True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12"

The Word is the Light of men who believe. That is what I said, and clearly. And backed it up with Scripture.

I agree John 1:9 doesn't negate 1:12. The difference is that 1:9 is referring to the Word, whereas Jesus is the Word come in the flesh. I've supported my claim completely.

What "difference" are you talking about? There is no "difference" that I can see.

In fact it's common sense that since God created man, God is inside the man.

That is not only NOT common sense, it is flatly wrong. Please provide evidence of this from Scripture.

God the Holy Spirit only indwells believers. Not everyone. Your statement is clearly unbiblical.

In fact you just got finished saying this," What we can't forget is that God has already revealed Himself and His attributes through creation." (Rom 1:18-20)

Yes I did. And that passage doesn't support your claim at all. He has revealed Himself through creation, NOT by indwelling people.

 

[FreeGrace]

I qualified my answer so that you know what I mean when I say God chooses, not what Calvinists mean.

That's what they believe as well.

Having said that, I am not familiar with Calvin's teachings, so I wouldn't comment on what I don't know. I've told you this before.

Calvin's teachings are taught by a variety of teachers today: MacArthur, Pink, Sproul, Piper, etc. Any of those sound familiar? Even if they do not, a number of evangelical seminaries are decidedly reformed, and teach what Calvin taught. So you have been influenced by Calvin's teachings even though you may claim you are not familiar with his teachings. You just didn't know that what you've been taught came from Calvin.

However I will say that if you are right about Calvinist teachings, then I understand the issue you have with the necessity of preaching the Gospel, or rather the lack of need for preaching the Gospel. I could say a lot about this, which would take some time and effort I am not prepared to invest at this moment. I would however say this on that point. The Word came into the created world, which means it is able to affect the creation from inside of time, which the Word has created from the beginning of time. This creates multiple layers of connotations wherein the word predetermined can be applied. As such it is difficult to sort through these.

Your paragraph is difficult to sort though, but Scripture isn't that difficult.

In fact terms used from an Eternal perspective typically don't fit with temporal inferences. In other words there are bound to be misunderstandings.

That sounds as if God had no choice but to write His Book to mankind in a way that would be misunderstood. Do you really believe that?

Why did Paul write this: 13For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. 2 Cor 1:13,14 NIV

It would make absolutely no sense for God to write to mankind in words that would be easily misunderstood.

I think your view places significant limits on God. He is more than able to communicate His message to mankind with words that man CAN and DOES understand.

The problem is that the devil has been out deceiving the whole world ever since he met the first human beings. 1 Jn 5:19

 

[FreeGrace]

I am not sure what you mean by 'every facet of salvation' because salvation is one thing; it is of God and accomplished by him. A man does not accomplish anything regarding his eternal life in Christ; neither by his own power, work, or merit.

If a man can accomplish even one 'facet' of his salvation, then it is not of God; but of both God and man. And that is not the case as presented in the Scriptures and as briefly touched upon in post #84. Our past, present, and future salvation is of the LORD; that is His beginning of it, His preservation [upholding, sustaining] of it, and His bringing it to completion [perfection].

If you are thinking that our obedience and our believing are facets of our salvation, then I would disagree. Yes, our obedience and believing are prerequisites, but faith is characterized as a channel [Gk. dia, such as 'by faith' or 'through faith'] of the act of God's salvation, and not the act of salvation itself. Our salvation rests solely upon the completed work of God in His Son Jesus Christ (Heb 12:2, Php 1:6), and it is His work that we believe (Jn 3:21, Jn 6:29), not ours (Rom 4:5).

Where is a man's accomplishment in this: "No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6 b); and
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . . " (John 6:44 a).

- - -

When a person stands before God and gives account to Him, will he claim any accomplishment regarding salvation? Will he lay claim to his faith and obedience apart from the grace of God?


.

 

[childeye]

I am not sure what you mean by 'every facet of salvation' because salvation is one thing; it is of God and accomplished by him. A man does not accomplish anything regarding his eternal life in Christ; neither by his own power, work, or merit.

By every facet, I mean every component including believing in the Christ.

If a man can accomplish even one 'facet' of his salvation, then it is not of God; but of both God and man. And that is not the case as presented in the Scriptures and as briefly touched upon in post #84. Our past, present, and future salvation is of the LORD; that is His beginning of it, His preservation [upholding, sustaining] of it, and His bringing it to completion [perfection].

Yes, this is what scripture is saying, for there is no power in man that is good, that is not God 's Word (Logos) in the first place. My word shall not return to me void. To think otherwise is to deny this, Romans 1:20.

If you are thinking that our obedience and our believing are facets of our salvation, then I would disagree. Yes, our obedience and believing are prerequisites, but faith is characterized as a channel [Gk. dia, such as 'by faith' or 'through faith'] of the act of God's salvation, and not the act of salvation itself. Our salvation rests solely upon the completed work of God in His Son Jesus Christ (Heb 12:2, Php 1:6), and it is His work that we believe (Jn 3:21, Jn 6:29), not ours (Rom 4:5).

I have no problem with you saying that our obedience and our believing are prerequisites for salvation. If I may use a metaphor, obviously, good soil is a prerequisite for the seed to germinate and grow. However neither do I have a problem with saying that our obedience and our believing are facets of our salvation even because disobedience and unbelief are surely not facets of salvation. To me this is arguing semantics unless you can correct me otherwise.

Where is a man's accomplishment in this: "No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6 b); and
"No one is able to come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him . . . " (John 6:44 a).

I see no accomplishments attributable to a man's will in these scriptures.

- - -

When a person stands before God and gives account to Him, will he claim any accomplishment regarding salvation? Will he lay claim to his faith and obedience apart from the grace of God?

The avenues of inferences in this question are so nuanced that I could be wrong whether I answered yes or no. But judging from your posts, I will say that you intend the answer to be, no they will not, nor could they.

 

[childeye]

You are free to disagree with anything, but this is what I said:
This is what I said:
"True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12"

The Word is the Light of men who believe. That is what I said, and clearly. And backed it up with Scripture.

Yes you clearly said this, and I clearly understood your meaning. Therefore you clearly don't understand that this does not apply to what I have said.

What "difference" are you talking about? There is no "difference" that I can see.

You don't see the difference and therefore you do not see how what you said does not apply to what I have said. Notice the term the "Word" at the very first line of John. John 1:1. "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This "Word" is the Word of creation, wherefore God spoke and all things were created through the Word. John 1:3. This would include the heavens and the earth, all angels, all pants and animals and all manner of life including mankind. That is why the "Word ", the means of creation, is the life of man who is a created being. John 1:4. So this Word is present in every living man that was ever alive. And this is what I am saying when I say that he is the True Light and life of every man that comes into the world, John 1:9, which you apparently don't see.

Jesus is the same Word, except Jesus is the Word come in the flesh. Hence you say he only lights those who believe in him. But scripture actually says that to those who received him, he gave the power to become the children of God. And this is what you are referring to when you say he only Lights those who believe. You therefore are not taking into account that the Word was always the life and Light of man since all men are created beings, created through the Word which is the life and light of everyman.

That is not only NOT common sense, it is flatly wrong. Please provide evidence of this from Scripture.

I just did. It's common sense that God created men.

God the Holy Spirit only indwells believers. Not everyone. Your statement is clearly unbiblical.

I didn't say the Holy Spirit, I said the Word of creation. I agree the Holy Spirit only indwells believers in the Christ.


Yes I did. And that passage doesn't support your claim at all. He has revealed Himself through creation, NOT by indwelling people.[/QUOTE]

You are free to disagree with anything, but this is what I said:
This is what I said:
"True. But it lights only those who have believed, and therefore received that LIght. Jn 1:12"

The Word is the Light of men who believe. That is what I said, and clearly. And backed it up with Scripture.


What "difference" are you talking about? There is no "difference" that I can see.


That is not only NOT common sense, it is flatly wrong. Please provide evidence of this from Scripture.

God the Holy Spirit only indwells believers. Not everyone. Your statement is clearly unbiblical.

Yes I did. And that passage doesn't support your claim at all. He has revealed Himself through creation, NOT by indwelling people.

As I have said, the Word is the means of Creation and we know God is in us because his attributes are clearly seen for they are made manifest in us. This passage says exactly what I mean. Respectfully, you can't logically say this passage doesn't support my claim, if you are misunderstanding what I claim.

 

[childeye]

That's what they believe as well.

I wouldn't know. I know that scripture says God chose the foolish things to confound the wise and that is all I claim. If Calvinists believe this too, then I don't comprehend the reason for your contention.

Calvin's teachings are taught by a variety of teachers today: MacArthur, Pink, Sproul, Piper, etc. Any of those sound familiar? Even if they do not, a number of evangelical seminaries are decidedly reformed, and teach what Calvin taught. So you have been influenced by Calvin's teachings even though you may claim you are not familiar with his teachings. You just didn't know that what you've been taught came from Calvin.

I've never studied any teachings from anyone except the Holy Spirit.

Your paragraph is difficult to sort though, but Scripture isn't that difficult.

To be clear, I am not referring to scripture as the problem per se. I am referring to semantics and the many inferences that can be drawn from a poorly qualified point of reference.

That sounds as if God had no choice but to write His Book to mankind in a way that would be misunderstood. Do you really believe that?

This to me is a trick question. I believe that one needs guidance to understand scripture. Luke 24:45. The parables of Christ are designed in a way that some would not understand. Matthew 13:9-11.

Why did Paul write this: 13For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that, 14as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus. 2 Cor 1:13,14 NIV

I think Paul is not speaking of semantics here but content. I am talking abut semantics. Misunderstandings which I find commonplace in communicating.

It would make absolutely no sense for God to write to mankind in words that would be easily misunderstood.

But words can be easily misunderstood. Consequently he sends the Christ whose communication to mankind is through a quickening Spirit. 2 Corinthians 3:6. 1 Corinthians 1:17.

I think your view places significant limits on God. He is more than able to communicate His message to mankind with words that man CAN and DOES understand.

In all sincerity I do not wish to limit God's ability to do either, reveal or to hide. Matthew 11:25.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"What "difference" are you talking about? There is no "difference" that I can see."

You don't see the difference and therefore you do not see how what you said does not apply to what I have said. Notice the term the "Word" at the very first line of John. John 1:1. "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". This "Word" is the Word of creation, wherefore God spoke and all things were created through the Word. John 1:3. This would include the heavens and the earth, all angels, all pants and animals and all manner of life including mankind.

I asked what "difference" you are talking about? And this isn't an answer to that question.

That is why the "Word ", the means of creation, is the life of man who is a created being. John 1:4.

No, Jesus is NOT "the life of man". Jesus created man, and breathed life into the first one. But Jesus is NOT the "life of man". And Jn 1:4 doesn't say that. This is what it does say: In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.

Life is in Him. The phrase "the life" refers to Jesus. And Jesus is the light of men, but they have to receive the light. They do NOT have it just by being born, as you seem to think.

Consider the very next verse: The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

Jesus shines in the darkness (unsaved mankind). Yet, mankind doesn't comprehend it.

The passage goes on to say that those who believe in Christ receive the right to be the children of God.

You still have not shown from Scripture that Jesus, the Light, is in all men.

So this Word is present in every living man that was ever alive.

your logic doesn't follow the Scripture.

And this is what I am saying when I say that he is the True Light and life of every man that comes into the world, John 1:9, which you apparently don't see.

Yes, I do see that He is the Creator of life of every man. He is NOT the life of men. He created life. I think you are confused.

Jesus is the same Word, except Jesus is the Word come in the flesh. Hence you say he only lights those who believe in him.

You've not shown otherwise for me to believe otherwise.

But scripture actually says that to those who received him, he gave the power to become the children of God.

I've not found any Scripture that says that Jesus is the life of men. Or that He lights every man.

And this is what you are referring to when you say he only Lights those who believe. You therefore are not taking into account that the Word was always the life and Light of man since all men are created beings, created through the Word which is the life and light of everyman.

I think you misunderstand the passage.

I just did. It's common sense that God created men.

I've never argued otherwise.

And that passage doesn't support your claim at all. He has revealed Himself through creation, NOT by indwelling people.

I'm not sure what passage you are referring to. I went back to my post and there wasn't any passage noted.

And I'm fully aware that God has revealed Himself through creation. I never said he reveals Himself by indwelling people. I said that only believers are indwelt by the Spirit.

It seems to me you misunderstand Scripture and my posts.

 

[FreeGrace]

I wouldn't know. I know that scripture says God chose the foolish things to confound the wise and that is all I claim. If Calvinists believe this too, then I don't comprehend the reason for your contention.

My contention with Calvinist teaching is that their view of election is that God chooses who will believe, which is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

I've never studied any teachings from anyone except the Holy Spirit.

So you've bypassed the gift of pastor-teacher, which is the method by which the congregation learns God's Word? Do you believe you don't need a pastor? Where do you get that idea, since Scripture is clear about that gift.

This to me is a trick question. I believe that one needs guidance to understand scripture. Luke 24:45.

Yes, which is why the Holy Spirit gives the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher.

 

[childeye]

Yes, I do see that He is the Creator of life of every man. He is NOT the life of men. He created life. I think you are confused.

When I say "life" of man, I mean that which makes someone alive or to rephrase. That which animates us is The Word of God which is God. So above you seem to recognize this when you say, "I do see He is the Creator of Life of every man." Then you say what comes across as a contradiction, "God is not the Life of man". Perhaps you mean to say He does not control men's lives which is taking what I said out of context. For otherwise in context it sounds like you're saying God created man but God did not create man. God is the life of man but God is not the life of man.

You've not shown otherwise for me to believe otherwise.

I think we should refocus. I am saying that there is a Light of Life in every man before Jesus came in to the world. So as to say that before Jesus came into the world, Mothers loved their children and there was a benevolence in mankind that was an attribute of the Creator manifesting in His creation.

I've not found any Scripture that says that Jesus is the life of men. Or that He lights every man.

Of course not. It's the Logos/Word that lights every man that comes into the World. Yet Jesus is the Word made flesh. John 1 differentiates between the two after this manner and so should we.

I think you misunderstand the passage.

I don't even need the passage, for it is common sense that God created every man and that when Men do good to one another it is His attributes or Light that are clearly seen being manifested in mankind as goodness.

I've never argued otherwise.

Then what is the disagreement?

I'm not sure what passage you are referring to. I went back to my post and there wasn't any passage noted.

This was an error on my part because I did not border the quotes correctly. You are addressing your own statement from the last post..

It seems to me you misunderstand Scripture and my posts.

I assure you, I am doing my best.

 

[childeye]

My contention with Calvinist teaching is that their view of election is that God chooses who will believe, which is not taught anywhere in Scripture.

I can understand that. But have you ever thought that maybe the Calvinists are speaking from an Eternal perspective?

So you've bypassed the gift of pastor-teacher, which is the method by which the congregation learns God's Word? Do you believe you don't need a pastor? Where do you get that idea, since Scripture is clear about that gift.

I didn't do anything. This is the way God did it. John 6:45. 1 John 2:27.

Yes, which is why the Holy Spirit gives the spiritual gift of pastor-teacher.

The Holy Spirit dwells in me. If I have a question, I ask Him, and He answers the question. In fact He leads me to ask questions. There are at this present time countless pastors and teachers in many denominations all teaching different things according to their differing doctrine, which is why there are denominations. I am not led by God to pick any one, so as to put my trust in any single man for guidance. For the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit that is the knowledge of God which no scriptures can do justice and no man can provide, except for Christ. Hence all scripture testifies to Him. I have that knowledge. Hebrews 8:10-11.

 

[FreeGrace]

When I say "life" of man, I mean that which makes someone alive or to rephrase. That which animates us is The Word of God which is God. So above you seem to recognize this when you say, "I do see He is the Creator of Life of every man." Then you say what comes across as a contradiction, "God is not the Life of man".

My point is that God creates the life of people. He is NOT "the life" of people, as it seems you are saying. So I'm not contradicting myself.

Perhaps you mean to say He does not control men's lives which is taking what I said out of context.

Nope. I don't mean that at all.

For otherwise in context it sounds like you're saying God created man but God did not create man. God is the life of man but God is not the life of man.

You've given 2 completely different statements. And I disagree with both of them. Both are contradicted.

God creates life, but isn't that life. How is that clear? When God breathed into Adam's physical body the "breath of life", God wasn't putting His life into man. He was putting life into the body. There is no evidence that what God breathed into Adam was His own life.

Here is the reason: God IS eternal life. And He didn't give Adam eternal life in Gen 2:7. Adam received life, but it wasn't eternal. We know this because of God's warning about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and "in the day that you eat of it, you will surely DIE. Everyone knows that ETERNAL life cannot DIE. That is an internal contradiction.

I think we should refocus. I am saying that there is a Light of Life in every man before Jesus came in to the world.

This doesn't make sense, since the Light of Life is Jesus Christ. And there is no Scripture to support your view.

So as to say that before Jesus came into the world, Mothers loved their children and there was a benevolence in mankind that was an attribute of the Creator manifesting in His creation.

This doesn't support your idea that there is this so-called "Light of Life". The very Light of Life is Jesus.

It's the Logos/Word that lights every man that comes into the World.

The text does not say that Jesus lights every man. He is the Light for everyone, but that doesn't say or mean that He actually lights everyone.

Yet Jesus is the Word made flesh. John 1 differentiates between the two after this manner and so should we.

Between the two…what?

I don't even need the passage, for it is common sense that God created every man and that when Men do good to one another it is His attributes or Light that are clearly seen being manifested in mankind as goodness.

Doing good to one another doesn't equate to having God's attributes in man. It shows that man is capable to follow God's guidelines.

 

[FreeGrace]

I can understand that. But have you ever thought that maybe the Calvinists are speaking from an Eternal perspective?

I don't see what an eternal perspective has to do with God choosing who will believe. The issue is clear: either God chooses who will believe, or man is free to believe or reject all by himself.

Please explain how an eternal perspective would determine which is correct?

I didn't do anything. This is the way God did it. John 6:45. 1 John 2:27.

First, Jn 6:45 doesn't mean God teaches directly, as it seems you assume. God has always used men to teach what He wants mankind to know. He calls them prophets, apostles, pastors. That's who we learn from. They have been given the gift of teaching.

Second, it seems you are trying to pit verses against verses by citing 1 Jn 2:27. Come on, do you really think the Holy Spirit directly teaches you, bypassing the gift of pastor-teacher that the Holy Spirit gives to certain men, who are the leaders of local congregations?

Are you aware of the verse that says: not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. Heb 10:25 NASB

The Holy Spirit dwells in me. If I have a question, I ask Him, and He answers the question.

Seriously, is this an audible answer?

In fact He leads me to ask questions. There are at this present time countless pastors and teachers in many denominations all teaching different things according to their differing doctrine, which is why there are denominations. I am not led by God to pick any one, so as to put my trust in any single man for guidance.

Well, you've just admitted to sidestepping one of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit given to teach congregations, which is where believers are to assemble together and be taught God's Word.

And yes, there is a lot of differences and disagreements, but we need to do what the Bereans did: Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so Acts 17:11 NASB

 

[childeye]

God creates life, but isn't that life. How is that clear? When God breathed into Adam's physical body the "breath of life", God wasn't putting His life into man. He was putting life into the body. There is no evidence that what God breathed into Adam was His own life.

Here is the reason: God IS eternal life. And He didn't give Adam eternal life in Gen 2:7. Adam received life, but it wasn't eternal. We know this because of God's warning about the tree of knowledge of good and evil, and "in the day that you eat of it, you will surely DIE. Everyone knows that ETERNAL life cannot DIE. That is an internal contradiction.

So basically you're saying because Adam doesn't have eternal life, he doesn't have God's life in him. To me, all life, eternal or temporal comes from God. God is Life. There is no other power that animates any being, from the mightiest angels to the smallest bacteria. John 5:26.

This doesn't make sense, since the Light of Life is Jesus Christ. And there is no Scripture to support your view.

Of course it makes no sense since here you speak of the Christ when I'm speaking about before Christ came. Read above, you acknowledge what I'm talking about above when speaking about God breathing Life into Adam.

The text does not say that Jesus lights every man.

It says the Word of God lights every man. John 1:9 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

This word for life in Greek is zoe.
Outline of Biblical Usage

1. life
   1. the state of one who is possessed of vitality or is animate
   2. every living soul

Between the two…what?

I'm referring to "the Word" and the "Word made flesh?". Two different froms of the same person. The Word is the power of creation according to John 1:3. This power of creation created man, and is what gives him life and light John 1:4. The word which is the power of creation was made flesh, John 1:14. So you see I am not talking about the Christ, I am talking about before the Word became the Christ. The Word is the same person as the Christ before he came as the Christ, and he has always been the light of man from the creation. After the fall, he came in the flesh to renew man. Consequently, he says Before Abraham was, I am.
John 10:58.

Doing good to one another doesn't equate to having God's attributes in man. It shows that man is capable to follow God's guidelines.

No, God didn't give guidelines how to Love one another. For He is Love.

 

[childeye]

I don't see what an eternal perspective has to do with God choosing who will believe. The issue is clear: either God chooses who will believe, or man is free to believe or reject all by himself.

Please explain how an eternal perspective would determine which is correct?

From an Eternal view both are correct. Christ is judgment. God knows those who Love the Light will choose Jesus, and those who Love the darkness will not choose Jesus. Consequently the choice is predetermined yet each man chooses according to his own will.

First, Jn 6:45 doesn't mean God teaches directly, as it seems you assume. God has always used men to teach what He wants mankind to know. He calls them prophets, apostles, pastors. That's who we learn from. They have been given the gift of teaching

God does teach directly and even guides directly. The Spirit of Christ is a living Spirit in every true believer. That does not mean he doesn't use people to teach.
.

Second, it seems you are trying to pit verses against verses by citing 1 Jn 2:27. Come on, do you really think the Holy Spirit directly teaches you, bypassing the gift of pastor-teacher that the Holy Spirit gives to certain men, who are the leaders of local congregations?

Personally, I have never been taught by anyone other than the Holy Spirit. That does not mean I discount anyone from being able to add to me. Christ is really rather simple. The commandments to Love God with all your heart mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself are the directives. Walking in the Spirit of Love is what fulfills them. Even a child could know that.

Are you aware of the verse that says: not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near. Heb 10:25 NASB

Yes I am.

Seriously, is this an audible answer?

It is not audible in my outward ears.

Well, you've just admitted to sidestepping one of the spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit given to teach congregations, which is where believers are to assemble together and be taught God's Word.

And yes, there is a lot of differences and disagreements, but we need to do what the Bereans did: Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so Acts 17:11 NASB

I have told you that I was brought up Roman Catholic. I left that congregation because the doctrine was contrary to what I was being taught by the Holy Spirit. I spoke with many priests and teachers about it for years. They could not help me resolve the issues. I could tell you many stories about that. I joined a small church where I devoted my time and money, only to be disillusioned when differences in doctrine began to appear. I could not of good conscious follow where the Pastor wanted to lead. I think I joined three different congregations and they all turned out the same. All three of those congregations went belly up after I had left them. I don't need teaching so much as I need fellowship. Which is why I am here on this Forum.