Could God's plan for the lost be this simple?

[Alfred Persson]

IMHO
I plan to keep this simple, and do not want to engage in the total conversation.

Ok: You are wrong.

 

[Alfred Persson]

See, Im one of the elect because I have obeyed the gospel. Believed, repented, confessed and was baptized in order to remove my sins. This isnt you. You believe you were chosen. How do you know you were chosen? Just because one might “believe” in Christ does not make one “elect”. Mt 12:42 proves that.

No, the version of you that never came into existence, was loved by God. And that version loved God back. That happened only in the Omniscience of God, before the foundation of the world:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1 Pet. 1:2 KJV)

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 KJV)


But Scripture is clear, God did NOT foreknow the version of you that actually came into existence. Nothing that version does conditioned God's election:

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (Rom. 9:11-14 KJV)

There are two ways to prove there is no unrighteousness with God. Paul chose to cite God showing mercy to some more than others, and act accordingly. Compare what Christ says here:

Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? (Matt. 20:15 KJV)

There is another way to prove there is no unrighteousness with God. For that you have to read my blog here:

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience...

endtimenews.net

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where does the Bible EVER say you get a second chance after death?

Scripture where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

(1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15 )

And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. (Jon. 2:2 KJV)

I called on Your name, O LORD, From the lowest pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr). (Lam. 3:55 NKJ)

1 I waited patiently for the LORD; and he inclined unto me, and heard my cry.
2 He brought me up also out of an horrible pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr), out of the miry clay, and set my feet upon a rock, and established my goings.
3 And he hath put a new song in my mouth, even praise unto our God: many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in the LORD. (Ps. 40:1-3 KJV)

As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit (0953 בּוֹר bowr) wherein is no water. (Zec. 9:11 KJV) Compare Luke 16:24

This opens the possibility Billions of people can be saved, not just a few.

For example, rather than impose post-apostolic bias all raised from Death and Hades are unsaved wicked, we can accept the clear implication of John’s negative: ” anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire”—-it implies SOME WERE found written in the Book of Life and therefore NOT cast into the fire: [3]

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:11-15 NKJ) (Compare John 5:28-29; Dan. 7:10)

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names cannot be of the “Elect” because those names can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16). That requires other books exist, one for those who will be written in, and another for those blotted out, so they can be properly listed for judgment.

This is not a new idea. The Pharisees believed there were three classes of People on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the “Middling” or “To be determined” and this required the existence of multiple “books”:

[I.15 A] Said R. Kruspedai said R. Yohanan, “Three books are opened [by God] on the New Year: one for the thoroughly wicked, one for the thoroughly righteous, and one for middling [people].
“The thoroughly righteous immediately are inscribed and sealed for [continued] life.
[C] “The thoroughly wicked immediately are inscribed and sealed for death.
[D] “Middling [people] are left hanging from New Year until the Day of Atonement.
[E] “If they [are found to have] merit, they are inscribed for life.
[F] “If they [are found] not [to have] merit, they are inscribed for death.”
[G] Said R. Abin, “What is the Scriptural [foundation for this]? [Ps. 69:29 states]: ‘Let them be blotted out of the book of the living. Let them not be inscribed among the righteous.’ ‘Let them be blotted out of the book’—this refers to the book of the thoroughly wicked. ‘[… of the] living’—this refers to the book of the righteous. ‘Let them not be inscribed among the righteous’—this refers to the book of middling [people].”-Neusner, J. (2011). The Babylonian Talmud: A Translation and Commentary (Vol. 6b, p. 83). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson Publishers.

Paul a former Pharisee would have been taught this Judgment Day tradition (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5). Moreover, John wrote Revelation 20:12-13 100% consistent with it. It is historical fact many Pharisees became Christians (Ac. 15:5; 23:6; 26:5) in Jesus’ Day; Jesus condemned only those traditions that contradicted God’s Word (Mt. 15:5-6).

It is a fact Christ calls some Pharisee traditions “treasure”: [5]

Then He said to them, “Therefore every scribe instructed concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.” (Matt. 13:52 NKJ)

The existence of another class of people standing before God on Judgment Day completely upends all post-apostolic Eschatology set by the Catholic Magisterium. It means destinies for some are determined on Judgment Day. This requires Hades has another purpose apart from punishment with possible redemption in view; an idea consistent with God’s just, merciful and loving character revealed everywhere in Scripture.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Heb 9 says it is appointed for all men once to die then the judgment.

That's right, but you are wrong. The "trial/judgment" happens in Hell, immediately after death. Those who pass that trial then eagerly wait for Christ's second coming as their Savior unto salvation, in the resurrection of life:

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 KJV)

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 KJV)

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)


That's why Paul "turned a sinner over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit could be saved in the Day of Christ:

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 KJV)

He died after his flesh was destroyed, and then came the Judgment. The Gospel was preached to him again, completely made known to him. And he then had a choice, if he repented and believed then his spirit was saved during the resurrection to life. He done good when he heard Christ's voice. But those who do not "hear" so as to obey Christ while in the grave, they rise to a resurrection of condemnation.

Don't marvel at this. God's ways are not your ways:

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
...
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:21-28 KJV)

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.- (Isa. 55:8-11 KJV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Where does the Bible EVER say we will be judged by “works” we perform AFTER death? Never seen that one!

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Pet. 3:18-21 KJV)

These gave the answer of a good conscience towards God while dead in "prison", ONLY then could they be part of the "like figure" to how the church is saved when we give the answer of a good conscience to Christ's preaching.


The "dead" in verse 5, who God will judge, are "them that are dead" in verse 6, who pay for their sins done while in the flesh, but if they repent and believe, can than "live according to God in the spirit" waiting for the resurrection of life on Judgment Day:

5 Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 KJV)

As it is written, it is appointed to all men to die, then comes the judgment. Those who pass the judgment by repenting, and believing in Jesus for salvation, then eagerly wait "looking for Him" for salvation.

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 KJV)

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is describing the final judgment. These are not works done while dead.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

Jesus said the same thing didnt he? He’s describing final judgment.
What “good” did they ever do while cruising through hades? I hate when people make this stuff up like it came from God.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Jn. 5:25 KJV)

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),

Same words, same context = same meaning. Those who Obediently hear, will live, rise to the resurrection of life. That is true whether they believed when Christ preached to them while still physically alive, or believed when Christ preaches to them while physically dead in the grave (1 Pet. 3:18-22; 4:5-6).

Those who Obediently hear, will live, rise to the resurrection of life.

Those who disobey will not live, they die the second death from which there is no resurrection, rise to the resurrection of condemnation.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)

That's why there are multiple books. The names of those who died unbelieving, can be written into the book of life if they choose to obey Christ's voice when the gospel is preached to the dead, then live according to God in the spirit. Their names get written in the book of life.


All who do not repent and confess Christ, are not found in the book of life, so they die the second death.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So why even do ANY of this religious stuff? Go to church, read the Bible, try to be faithful to God, etc. None of it matters to this mess of a doctrine.

Incorrect. Its far better to "go into the presence of the LORD" upon physical death, than go to hell to pay for sins, and then repent and believe.

The torments in hell are to be avoided at all costs, far better to sell all you own in this life, and follow Christ.

 

[Alfred Persson]

So you can live your life thinking…Im one of the elect but in reality youll never really know until you die? Beautiful.
See, this is why I ask you….are you one of the elect? You dont even know! What a comforting doctrine that is. Nobody can ever know until they die.
What a contradictory doctrine you have. You have already told us that the “elect” could make things right after death? So, why would it matter if they died in apostasy or sin? They can just repent and clear it up in hades.
Now you are saying that if the “elect” or those who think they are elect ( I don’t see the difference if you can clear it up after death) die in sin then they weren’t really “elect” after all. But even if you “think” you are one of them and die in your sin it wont matter because you can clear it up while dead.
Whatever!

The Elect don't turn away from Christ. That's not who they are. If anyone apostatizes from Christ, they only thought they were "saved". AND they will not repent in hell, they made their choice revealing who they really are:

20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire." (2 Pet. 2:20-22 NKJ)

Why does Peter say it would have been better if they didn't know about Christ? Because then in death they could reconsider what it means not to have Christ as LORD and Savior. Having rejected Christ in this life, they lost their chance, none given to them in the next "since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says,`I will return to my house from which I came.'
25 "And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order.
26 "Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first." (Lk. 11:24-26 NKJ)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God;
8 but if it bears thorns and briars, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned. (Heb. 6:4-8 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Paul mentions in Rom 10..
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Romans 10:1
he then said…
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Romans 11:14
Why would they need “provoking”? I thought they were the “elect”?
Doesn’t sound like all jews are going to be saved. Only if they obey the gospel.
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Romans 10:16
It doesn’t just say…believe the gospel. It say…obey the gospel.

Haven't you read:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him, Hebrews 5:9


Very Simple: Obey Jesus Christ as your Lord.


It’s not a hard thing to love and obey Him; He gives us a new heart that is made for loving Him and our neighbor.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3


If we fall we get back up and keep going and learn from our mistakes, knowing He loves us and is here to empower us to obey Him and to do the things that please Him. Grace is that power that enables us to love and obey our Lord.


If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
1 John 1:6-10




JLB

Don't know why you quoted my post. Nothing you said was in reply to it. Nor did you say anything I would disagree with.

 

[Alfred Persson]

you might be one of the only people I have ever seen that preaches…Hell is good. Being a drug lord and killer is good for your soul.

Its a sin to lie about others. I never said "being a drug lord and killer is good for your soul."

As for "hell", God created it therefore it is good not evil.

Or do you say God created evil?

 

[Hopeful]

So how does He bring the Saints with Him then when He returns?

I wish you had supplied some scripture with that observation.
I do have this though, in answer to your question...
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" (1 Thes 4:16)
They are the saints the still living will meet in the air.

And who are the cloud of witnesses?

Angels?
Pre-resurrection saints? (Noah, Lot, Moses, David, etc)
Those seated in heavenly places with Christ? (Eph 2:6..."And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:")

 

[Alfred Persson]

It‘s unscriptural to assume those who are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, will all obey what is necessary to do so.


For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29


I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
Romans 12:1-2


Are we offering our body as a living sacrifice? This calls for fasting and being consecrated, among other things such as perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Likewise we are to “cleanse ourselves from being a vessel of dishonor”, so that we will be prepared for service unto our Lord.

That's like saying a chocolate cake won't taste sweet because salt is in one of its ingredients.

God doesn't subvert free will, He orchestrates events so free will choice is liberated to make its true choice.

For example, the "hardening of Pharaoh's heart:

And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go. (Exod. 4:21 NKJ)

No "hardening energy" went from God to Pharaoh's heart to harden it. God permitted his magicians do miracles so these convinced Pharaoh he could resist God and prevail:

9 "When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying,`Show a miracle for yourselves,' then you shall say to Aaron,`Take your rod and cast it before Pharaoh, and let it become a serpent.'"
10 So Moses and Aaron went in to Pharaoh, and they did so, just as the LORD commanded. And Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent.
11 But Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers; so the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.
12 For every man threw down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.
13 And Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said.
14 So the LORD said to Moses: "Pharaoh's heart is hard; he refuses to let the people go. (Exod. 7:9-14 NKJ)

22 Then the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments; and Pharaoh's heart grew hard, and he did not heed them, as the LORD had said. (Exod. 7:22 NKJ)

Pharaoh's hardened his own heart. He wanted to resist God, that was his free will choice. Only after he assured himself he could do so successfully, did he refuse to let the people go.

God did not reprobate Pharaoh, he reprobated himself.

Its similar with predestination, God orchestrates events so the free will choice of the elect occurs.

The context implies this synergy. All things are made to work together for good...and that must be pertinent to predestination or "For" in verse 29 wouldn't connect them:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 NKJ)





:

 

[JLB]

That's like saying a chocolate cake won't taste sweet because salt is in one of its ingredients.

That may be your opinion, but it s not mine.

Its similar with predestination, God orchestrates events so the free will choice of the elect occurs.

Most of the time “elect” refers to the Jews.

Example:

Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
2 Timothy 2:10


Jesus Christ is the Elect One. Those who have chosen Christ and are in Him, are elect.


Behold! My Servant whom I uphold,
My Elect One in whom My soul delights!
I have put My Spirit upon Him;
He will bring forth justice to the Gentiles.
Isaiah 42:1


My Point:

The term “predestined“ has been misused to mean “predestined to be saved” by those who promote a false teaching.


The term “elect” has been misused to mean “elected for eternal salvation”, in which the elect are automatically and irrevocably saved, by those promoting a false teaching.


The meaning of these two word have been “redefined” to mean something other than what scripture teaches by those promoting false doctrine.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9


Eternal Salvation is given to those who obey Jesus Christ:

His Gospel
His Commandments
His Doctrine


This is called the truth.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,
Romans 2:6-8


Only those who obey the truth will be given eternal salvation.


He gives grace, (the power to obey), to the humble.






JLB

 

[Edward]

The term “predestined“ has been misused to mean “predestined to be saved” by those who promote a false teaching.

I've noticed that too. I believe what it actually means is that every incidence in life that we find ourselves in, has been totally orchestrated by God as a test and a learning opportunity where we must choose.

I do not believe in co-incidences.
I do believe in God-incidences.

You were predestined to run out of gas in the rain. Just to see how you would react to it. Would you turn to God for help? Would you assume the authority you have been given and speak to the rain? Would you become angry and say not nice things at the thought of having to walk in the rain?

Lol.

Life is 10% what it deals you in the cards,
And 90% how you react to it.

Our Lord says, you have not because you ask not, turn to me for help! I'll tell you what to do and how to handle it.

I have a really good testimony about when the Lord taught me this conclusivly.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The term “predestined“ has been misused to mean “predestined to be saved” by those who promote a false teaching.


The term “elect” has been misused to mean “elected for eternal salvation”, in which the elect are automatically and irrevocably saved, by those promoting a false teaching.


The meaning of these two word have been “redefined” to mean something other than what scripture teaches by those promoting false doctrine.


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

I cannot agree. While I agree free will is never subverted, Scripture clearly says God will effect salvation in the elect, doing whatever it takes. Your theory "predestination" has been "redefined" isn't correct. A word study proves it means "determined before". That God makes it happen is clearly taught by Paul, all called are also justified....glorified:

29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined (4309 προορίζω proorizo) to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom He predestined (4309 προορίζω proorizo), these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?

32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us. (Rom. 8:29-34 NKJ)

4309. προορίζω proorízō; fut. proorísō, from pró (4253), before, and horízō (3724), to determine. To determine or decree beforehand (Acts 4:28; Rom. 8:29, 30; 1 Cor. 2:7; Eph. 1:5, 11). The peace of the Christian Church has been disrupted due to the misunderstanding which surrounds this word. It behooves the Church to consider the divinely intended meaning of this word by carefully examining the critical passages where it is used.

In 1 Cor. 2:7 it has a thing as its obj., namely, the wisdom of God. The purpose was our glory, i.e., our benefits of salvation.

In Acts 4:28 the verb is followed by the aor. inf. genésthai (gínomai [1096], to be, become), to be done. The action of Herod and Pontius Pilate in crucifying Jesus Christ is said to have been predetermined or foreordained by the hand and will of God. This indicates that Christ’s mission, especially His death and resurrection, was not ultimately the result of human will but originated in the eternal counsel of God which decreed the event determining all its primary and secondary causes, instruments, agents, and contingencies.

In Rom. 8:29, 30, predestination is used of God’s actions in eternally decreeing both the objects and goal of His plan of salvation. Proorízō has a personal obj., the pl. relative pron. hoús, whom. This relative pron. refers to those previously mentioned as those whom God foreknew (proégnō [4267]). The translation is, “For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.” The objects of predestination are those whom He foreknew. Predestination does not involve a predetermined plan only but also includes the individuals for whom the plan is devised. The goal of predestination is expressed in the phrase, “to be conformed to the image of his Son.”

In Eph. 1:5, 11 this same purpose of foreordination is termed adoption. Adoption (huiothesía [5206]) is the placing into sonship or legal heirship of those who are born of God. According to 1:5 the basis of this prior decree is “the good pleasure of His will.” The word rendered “good pleasure” is eudokía (2107) and means pleasure or satisfaction, that which seems good. Paul is careful to add that it is the good pleasure of God’s will, it is what seems good to God–not man. Similarly, in 1:11 foreordination is based upon “the purpose (próthesis [4286]) of the One who is working all things ([neut. acc. pl.] tá pánta [3844], an idiom for the entire metaphysical and physical universe) according to the decision of His will” (a.t.). This same thinking is reflected in Rom. 8:30 where foreordination is joined successively to foreknowledge. Here it is presented not as a capricious, arbitrary or whimsical exercise of raw will or unreasoned impulse, but as the expression of a deliberate and wise plan which purposes to redeem those undeserving sinners whom God freely favors as the objects of His mercy.

Because it is neither possible nor permissible for us to pry into God’s secret counsel, it is not proper to be fixated with determining who the predestined are. Instead, we should contemplate the glories of what they are predestined to, i.e., salvation, adoption, or glory.

Syn.: protássō (4384), to appoint before; procheirízō (4400), to appoint beforehand; proetoimázō (4282), to prepare before.-Zodhiates, S. (2000). In The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). AMG Publishers.

 

[Cnkw3]

No, the version of you that never came into existence, was loved by God. And that version loved God back. That happened only in the Omniscience of God, before the foundation of the world:

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, (1 Pet. 1:2 KJV)

This DOES NOT say ”certain individuals“. He is writing to Christiana’s. he mentions these groups in the first verse. He calls these people, those that had obeyed the gospel, “the elect”. That is who the elect are. Those who obey.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

How are we called? 2 thes 2:13,14. By the gospel! This was his purpose before the world began.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:28-29 KJV)

There’s a difference between foreknowledge and predestination. God through his foreknowledge can know whether or not I will be faithful but this does not mean he predetermined it. He predetermined, before the world began, what would be required in order to be accepted by him.
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Genesis 4:7
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
Acts 10:34-35
There is your predestination. In EVERY NATION, those that fear him and work righteousness are accepted.
God may know, through his foreknowledge, how all of this will play out but he did not micro manage everybody’s life to get what he wants, making them sinners or saints at his pleasure. That is up to you.

But Scripture is clear, God did NOT foreknow the version of you that actually came into existence. Nothing that version does conditioned God's election:

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. (Rom. 9:11-14 KJV)

God knew that it would be through Jacob that his nation would be created. Thats why he prophesied that the elder will serve the younger. God didnt make all that happen, but through his foreknowledge, he could see how all of it would play out. Like Judas. He dint make Judas a betrayer, he could see into the future who Judas was and how it would play out.

There are two ways to prove there is no unrighteousness with God. Paul chose to cite God showing mercy to some more than others, and act accordingly. Compare what Christ says here:

Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good? (Matt. 20:15 KJV)

There is another way to prove there is no unrighteousness with God. For that you have to read my blog here:

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional or Unconditional or Both? | End Time News, Today - Rapture Ready News

Predestination unto Salvation: Was Divine Election Conditional, Unconditional or Both? Scripture says divine election is conditioned "according to the foreknowledge of God" (1 Pt. 1:2): Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience...

endtimenews.net

What does this have to do with foreknowledge? nothing. We all know there is no “unrighteousness with God”.

 

[Cnkw3]

Scripture where repentance in Hell is presumed, implied or explicitly stated:

(1Sam. 2:6-10; 2Sam. 22:5-7; Ps. 16:10-11; 30:3; 49:15; 56:14; 68:18-20; 71:19-24; 86:13; 88:1-18; 107:10-15; 116:3-9; 118:17-18; 139:8; Isa. 4:4; 26:19-21; Lam. 3:25; Hos. 13:14; Jon. 2:2-6; Mic. 7:7-9; Zec. 9:11; John 5:28-29; 1 Pt. 3:18-22; 4:6; 1 Cor. 5:5; Eph. 4:8-10; Heb. 9:27-28; Rev. 20:11-15 )

All i have to do here with this mess is post this..
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
John 5:28-29
Where, in the wild world of sports, does this say…..they repented in hell?????
You quoted Jonah 2:2.
Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly,
Jonah 2:1
He was in a fish! Not in real hell! Do you just post these things without actually reading them? I don’t think you even care what they say. Jonah could repent because he was still ALIVE.

This opens the possibility Billions of people can be saved, not just a few.

For example, rather than impose post-apostolic bias all raised from Death and Hades are unsaved wicked, we can accept the clear implication of John’s negative: ” anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire”—-it implies SOME WERE found written in the Book of Life and therefore NOT cast into the fire: [3]

Their name will be in the book of life because of how they lived, not how they repented in hell. Phil 4:3 are group of people that Paul said were in the book of life? Why? Because they had obeyed the gospel and are living faithfully.

The names of the Elect are in the Book of Life (Phil. 4:3; Rev. 13:8; 17:8) but other names cannot be of the “Elect” because those names can be blotted out (Rev. 3:5; Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28) or written in (Ps. 69:28; 87:6; Dan. 12:1; Mal. 3:16). That requires other books exist, one for those who will be written in, and another for those blotted out, so they can be properly listed for judgment.

This is not a new idea. The Pharisees believed there were three classes of People on Judgment Day: The Righteous, the Wicked, and the “Middling” or “To be determined” and this required the existence of multiple “books”:

You want to be included with the Pharisees? Ok. Your there!

Paul a former Pharisee would have been taught this Judgment Day tradition (Ac. 22:3; 23:6; 26:4-5). Moreover, John wrote Revelation 20:12-13 100% consistent with it. It is historical fact many Pharisees became Christians (Ac. 15:5; 23:6; 26:5) in Jesus’ Day; Jesus condemned only those traditions that contradicted God’s Word (Mt. 15:5-6).

It is a fact Christ calls some Pharisee traditions “treasure”: [5]

Repentance in hell isnt one of them. If so where is it?

The existence of another class of people standing before God on Judgment Day completely upends all post-apostolic Eschatology set by the Catholic Magisterium. It means destinies for some are determined on Judgment Day. This requires Hades has another purpose apart from punishment with possible redemption in view; an idea consistent with God’s just, merciful and loving character revealed everywhere in Scripture.

Your doctrine would lead everybody to say….forget God and his church. I will live and do whatever I want and then I’ll make it all better in hades. Thanks for contributing to the moral decimation of society. This idea is not the one I read about in my Bible.

 

[Cnkw3]

6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 KJV)

You keep posting this passage… The “dead” are not physically dead. That is why he says they “LIVE” according to God in the spirit. They are spiritually dead. That is who you preach to….the lost.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)


That's why Paul "turned a sinner over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit could be saved in the Day of Christ:

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5:5 KJV)

This is a part of church discipline. When you are kicked out of the church and excommunicated it is a form of punishment with eternal consequences. This is how one is to be…..”delivered unto satan”..

He died after his flesh was destroyed, and then came the Judgment. The Gospel was preached to him again, completely made known to him. And he then had a choice, if he repented and believed then his spirit was saved during the resurrection to life. He done good when he heard Christ's voice. But those who do not "hear" so as to obey Christ while in the grave, they rise to a resurrection of condemnation.

Don't marvel at this. God's ways are not your ways:

The person spoken of in 1 Cor 5 was spoken of again in the 2 cor. He had repented and been made whole again. He was not killed..

21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
...
27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:21-28 KJV)

Why post this? It DOES NOT SAY turn away in hell. These people are still alive.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.- (Isa. 55:8-11 KJV)

Why post this? It says NOTHING you are preaching. None of it even hints at someone repenting in hell.

 

[Cnkw3]

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)


Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς) of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. (Jn. 5:25 KJV)

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice (ἀκούσονται τῆς φωνῆς),

Same words, same context = same meaning. Those who Obediently hear, will live, rise to the resurrection of life. That is true whether they believed when Christ preached to them while still physically alive, or believed when Christ preaches to them while physically dead in the grave (1 Pet. 3:18-22; 4:5-6).

Those who Obediently hear, will live, rise to the resurrection of life.

Those who disobey will not live, they die the second death from which there is no resurrection, rise to the resurrection of condemnation.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-15 NKJ)

That's why there are multiple books. The names of those who died unbelieving, can be written into the book of life if they choose to obey Christ's voice when the gospel is preached to the dead, then live according to God in the spirit. Their names get written in the book of life.


All who do not repent and confess Christ, are not found in the book of life, so they die the second death.

Im sorry….you are like many who are a one trick pony. You post the same passages over and over as if you can make them say what you want. But not a one of your passages EVER says you can repent and be forgiven AFTER you die. You know it but dont seem to care.
Like the “book of life“. Where does it EVER say….names are changed in the book of life AFTER you have died, or while you are in hades? It doesn’t say that in any verse whatsoever. It specifically says…”found in the book of life” implying that they were already there. Their names had not been changed after death.