Defending the existence of God

[Vaccine]

By the Spirit of the Lord and power of the truth of His Word in Scripture, it is by that Spirit and Word that grieves me that men need the visual aids and publications of men to convince the world of God. It throws in the face of God in Jesus Christ that man needs to to convince man by visual aids and their own publications (of which they receive monetary wealth and notoriety) as if though God needed men to confirm He exist, even though His creative attributes are a witness of Himself.

How about instead of being impressed with his videos and debates, instead, being instilled with Almighty God's Spirit and truth in Scripture which is the sure word of God. This is the witness of God; (if we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater..............He that believeth on the Son of God, hath the witness in himself. He that believeth not God hath made God a liar, and that witness is the resurrection of our Lord and His Spirit within the believer.(1 John 5:9-10) Without Spiritual rebirth, you or the world will never understand the witness power of Gods word. No visual aid or religious publication ever drew me to God, it was the preaching of the God of the Scriptures that drew me. For the word of God is LIVING and POWERFUL and sharper than a two edged sword that is able to pierce, even to the dividing asunder of the soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the hearer (Heb. 4:12). A Spirit filled believer can not draw a man to the Lord, all he can do is preach the word....only God can draw a man to Christ or witness of Himself.

Thanks for your input, I think I get the gist of your post. Debates and visual aids may seem unnecessary to you but the first thing that came to my mind was 1 Cor. 21-22 "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don’t need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don’t need you!' On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor".
Also from 1 Cor 12 "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them"
I happen to think Frank Turek is a gifted debater. Frank Turek, William Lane Craig and others like them are doing a great job reaching the lost and counteracting the arguments for materialism. To suggest there is only one approach to that would be as "if the whole body were an eye".

 

[Papa Zoom]

Thanks for your input, I think I get the gist of your post. Debates and visual aids may seem unnecessary to you but the first thing that came to my mind was 1 Cor. 21-22 "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don’t need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don’t need you!' On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor".
Also from 1 Cor 12 "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them"
I happen to think Frank Turek is a gifted debater. Frank Turek, William Lane Craig and others like them are doing a great job reaching the lost and counteracting the arguments for materialism. To suggest there is only one approach to that would be as "if the whole body were an eye".

Also good is str.org

 

[Douglas Summers]

Thanks for your input, I think I get the gist of your post. Debates and visual aids may seem unnecessary to you but the first thing that came to my mind was 1 Cor. 21-22 "The eye cannot say to the hand, 'I don’t need you!' And the head cannot say to the feet, 'I don’t need you!' On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor".
Also from 1 Cor 12 "There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them"
I happen to think Frank Turek is a gifted debater. Frank Turek, William Lane Craig and others like them are doing a great job reaching the lost and counteracting the arguments for materialism. To suggest there is only one approach to that would be as "if the whole body were an eye".

I will not post in bold letters since it seems to irritates some.. Yes, 1 Cor. 12 is about the diversity of gifts given by the Holy Spirit. Those gifts are given sovereignly as the Holy Spirit wills. Those gifts are not to give us power, nor are they given us to use as we will to do so, but it is the Holy Spirit that works THROUGH us to manifest Himself through the believer. NOTHING is left up to self will. Our part in this is to be a willing and obedient vessel. So nothing is left up to self choosing...nothing! For it is the same God and the same Spirit that gives the diversity of gifts. not one gift is more important than the other, but they are all needed to create one complete body as God would have it.

There is nothing wrong with scientist and scholars giving proof of God through creation and science, even a simple man can see that as a witness for himself, and there will be judgment upon all who claim their is no God while they lived in an amazing array of colors and design by no human hands. My point is, what the Scriptures and the word give us to preach the Gospel, by the word of God with the Gift of the Holy Spirit, working through us as it did the disciples. Look around you at the many churches that try to draw men in by entertainment and preach that this is the only time of salvation and then the end. But it is not so. God is not saving the world at this time, He is calling out a people of His own (The Church), and He is ministering to the Gentile to be part of His living body (Acts 15:13-15). So, then this is about the Church, not Israel. Then! after that He will RETURN and build again the Tabernacle of David. (Acts 15:16-18) This is about Israel now, not about the Church. The four Gospels are about Israel, not the Church. The Church was mentioned after Christ rejection as the Son of David to restore the kingdom of Israel. So entertainment has polluted the Gospel along with self willed teaching (self will is the intrusion of self will into the sphere of divine authority) Salvation for all nations every where will be during the tribulation after the Church is with Christ. (Rev. 7:1-11)

 

[Free]

It is not Me, it is Christ in me, the Spirit of grace. The Holy Spirit that has given each and every born again believer gifts of service that the Holy Spirit works through us. Did God not call us? Did He not equip us with gifts of service?

So who are you then to say that those who are producing such videos and using philosophical arguments to defend the faith, are not gifted by God to do precisely those things?

How many have suffered for Christ? How many have been shipwrecked 3 times, or suffered by the attack of wild beast, went without food, no place to stay, beaten and scourged for Christ, but yet in counted it nothing compared to knowing Christ and His resurrection. How many have died to self?

Why don't you go and ask instead of sitting there judging? Have you been shipwrecked three times, or suffered by the attack of the wild beast, went without food, no place to stay, beaten and scourged for Christ?

 

[Douglas Summers]

So who are you then to say that those who are producing such videos and using philosophical arguments to defend the faith, are not gifted by God to do precisely those things?


Why don't you go and ask instead of sitting there judging? Have you been shipwrecked three times, or suffered by the attack of the wild beast, went without food, no place to stay, beaten and scourged for Christ?

Free, The things I have posted are the things that God has revealed to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. That is the Spirit God has given the Born again believer, not another spirit of the world, so that we might know the things that are freely given by God to all born again believers. These are the things we speak about, not the things that man's wisdom teaches, but what the Holy Spirit teaches. Comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual. But the carnal christian can not receive the things of the Spirit. For it is foolishness to them, just as you think what I say is judging when I ask how many of us have suffered the things Paul did in his service unto the Lord. Those things I asked about suffering for the Lord are all that Paul suffered (2 Cor. 11:23-33) Ask these things of the Lord about what I have said.. We that are Spiritual (born again) judge all things (not to condemnation) but what is Holy, good or righteous and the actions of men, but we are ourselves are judged by no man. This is not just for me, but for every born again believer (you must be born again) (1 Corinthians chapters 1 & 2)

 

[Papa Zoom]

Free, The things I have posted are the things that God has revealed to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. That is the Spirit God has given the Born again believer, not another spirit of the world, so that we might know the things that are freely given by God to all born again believers. These are the things we speak about, not the things that man's wisdom teaches, but what the Holy Spirit teaches. Comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual. But the carnal christian can not receive the things of the Spirit. For it is foolishness to them, just as you think what I say is judging when I ask how many of us have suffered the things Paul did in his service unto the Lord. Those things I asked about suffering for the Lord are all that Paul suffered (2 Cor. 11:23-33) Ask these things of the Lord about what I have said.. We that are Spiritual (born again) judge all things (not to condemnation) but what is Holy, good or righteous and the actions of men, but we are ourselves are judged by no man. This is not just for me, but for every born again believer (you must be born again) (1 Corinthians chapters 1 & 2)

The Law of Liberty
Romans 14…3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls.And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.…

 

[Free]

Free, The things I have posted are the things that God has revealed to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. That is the Spirit God has given the Born again believer, not another spirit of the world, so that we might know the things that are freely given by God to all born again believers. These are the things we speak about, not the things that man's wisdom teaches, but what the Holy Spirit teaches. Comparing Spiritual things with Spiritual. But the carnal christian can not receive the things of the Spirit. For it is foolishness to them, just as you think what I say is judging when I ask how many of us have suffered the things Paul did in his service unto the Lord. Those things I asked about suffering for the Lord are all that Paul suffered (2 Cor. 11:23-33) Ask these things of the Lord about what I have said.. We that are Spiritual (born again) judge all things (not to condemnation) but what is Holy, good or righteous and the actions of men, but we are ourselves are judged by no man. This is not just for me, but for every born again believer (you must be born again) (1 Corinthians chapters 1 & 2)

The things you have posted haven't addressed the topic nor the questions which have been asked of you, as this post once again shows. You have presumed too much and while you may not personally like the videos in the OP, you have no biblical grounds for being against them.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The Law of Liberty
Romans 14…3The one who eats everything must not belittle the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls.And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. 5One man regards a certain day above the others, while someone else considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.…

That has noting to do with what I posted. Your Scripture reference has to do with worship and honoring God in one's own heart. It hasd everything to do with the different customs of the Jew and the Gentile about foods and special days, Read all of Chapter 14) Along with (Eph. 2:14-18). I was quoting Scripture on correct doctrine and Spiritual warfare and not taking the Spiritual weight and power of God's word and reducing it to man's wisdom. (1 Corinthians chapters 1&2). How long did it take you to find Scripture that you thought would justify your view which comes from pride instead of soundness in the Spirit. You could have searched the Scriptures on sound doctrine or better yet Ask the Lord to ground you in the truth on what I was supporting by Spiritual warfare. If you are at a point in your Spiritual growth that your zeal allows visual aids and commercializing the Church of God in Jesus Christ, then you need to walk closer to The Lord in fellowship for better understanding. That is what I had to do. The world needs to see the Christ of the Scriptures through the Gospel (1 Thess. 2:10-13)

 

[Papa Zoom]

That has noting to do with what I posted. Your Scripture reference has to do with worship and honoring God in one's own heart. It hasd everything to do with the different customs of the Jew and the Gentile about foods and special days, Read all of Chapter 14) Along with (Eph. 2:14-18). I was quoting Scripture on correct doctrine and Spiritual warfare and not taking the Spiritual weight and power of God's word and reducing it to man's wisdom. (1 Corinthians chapters 1&2). How long did it take you to find Scripture that you thought would justify your view which comes from pride instead of soundness in the Spirit. You could have searched the Scriptures on sound doctrine or better yet Ask the Lord to ground you in the truth on what I was supporting by Spiritual warfare. If you are at a point in your Spiritual growth that your zeal allows visual aids and commercializing the Church of God in Jesus Christ, then you need to walk closer to The Lord in fellowship for better understanding. That is what I had to do. The world needs to see the Christ of the Scriptures through the Gospel (1 Thess. 2:10-13)

My post was a response to your critical view of the motivations and Spirit led efforts by many Christians to lead others to the Truth of the Gospel. You incorrectly label apologetics as a view which comes from pride instead of soundness in the Spirit. Says who? You? That's a prideful statement by any definition. No, the Spirit can move a man like William Lane Craig to pursue philosophy in order to defend the Faith against the attacks of atheist philosophers. He's given his life to this work. And having listened to his many lectures and his adult Sunday School lectures on the Faith, he is well versed in both philosophy and theology. Soundly so.

Each of your posts reek with prideful condescension. It's offensive. It's not the message that is offensive, it's your presentation. Hardly of the Spirit. Perhaps you need to "Ask the Lord to ground you in the truth" and open up your mind to the many ways God can use to bring people to the Truth. You are terribly misguided and limited in your witness.

I do not need a visual aid for understanding the Truth of God's word and the works of Christ. But unbelievers may. Just as Paul referenced their unknown God to tell them of God, we meet people where they are. We start at their starting point. You don't understand this.

If I were unbeliever and read your posts I would not be led to Christ. I would find you to be just another arrogant Christian that argues in circles.

But if I were met where I am, from MY starting point, I could be led to the truth you describe. You must lay a foundation first.

Some unbelievers are open to what you have to say. Many aren't. We must be ready to give reasons for our hope and we must move in the Power of the Spirit in all things. But we can use all the tools God puts at our disposal. Jesus himself appealed to the evidence proving who He was. God has appealed to the Cosmological Argument in Romans 1....19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

If these videos help Christians deal with the witness to the reality of God, why do you take issue with what God has a hand in? The witness of God can be seen in what was made. The cosmos....what can be clearly seen. Many come to faith once they come to realize that God truly exists. And they came to that conclusion through arguments. But the truths in those arguments are God's truths. Not of man.

 

[Douglas Summers]

The things you have posted haven't addressed the topic nor the questions which have been asked of you, as this post once again shows. You have presumed too much and while you may not personally like the videos in the OP, you have no biblical grounds for being against them.

It answered them. It just not what you wanted to hear. Did you study the Scriptures? I'm done here.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Each of your posts reek with prideful condescension. It's offensive. It's not the message that is offensive, it's your presentation. Hardly of the Spirit.

Did you even read the word of God from the Post I answered? Your last post made no sense in reference to the Scriptures I sent. It is obvious that you think Scripture (The word of God) is prideful if it does not agree with you??? Use your videos, do not worry about what I say. You have plenty of support from others who believe in visual aids.I do not. I ask you to ask the lord about the Subject, unless you don't believe he hears you. I do not know your spirit? But I do know the spirit of man and the Spirit of God. And if you think that is pride talking, then welcome to
the life of Paul.

 

[Free]

It answered them. It just not what you wanted to hear. Did you study the Scriptures? I'm done here.

It really has nothing to do with whether or not I it was what I wanted to hear. I simply cannot see how your posts have addressed anything related to the topic or what you have been asked. The only thing I have gotten from your posts is that you presume that those who engage in Christian apologetics are either not Spirit-filled or do so from the flesh. All my attempts to get clarification on that have not been responded to.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Did you even read the word of God from the Post I answered? Your last post made no sense in reference to the Scriptures I sent. It is obvious that you think Scripture (The word of God) is prideful if it does not agree with you??? Use your videos, do not worry about what I say. You have plenty of support from others who believe in visual aids.I do not. I ask you to ask the lord about the Subject, unless you don't believe he hears you. I do not know your spirit? But I do know the spirit of man and the Spirit of God. And if you think that is pride talking, then welcome to
the life of Paul.

You are not only off base, you are off topic. I never said the WOG is prideful. Just that you are. I don't care if you and I don't agree. I know what the Word says. You know NOTHING of me. Yet you act as if you do. And I know that arrogance and ignorance is talking when I read your senseless and spiritless posts. meh

 

[Papa Zoom]

For those of you that get it, here's a great series by Sproul. https://www.monergism.com/defending-your-faith-mp3-series

Free.

 

[Papa Zoom]

It answered them. It just not what you wanted to hear. Did you study the Scriptures? I'm done here.

PLEASE, be true to your word and actually be DONE here. Then those of us that honor the OP can actually discuss the topic without your self-righteous rants.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I would recommend this mp3 for those of you that see no need for apologetics. http://mp3.sa-media.com/filearea/4101411254410/4101411254410.mp3

We're losing our kids to the world. In large part because the Church hasn't faithfully equipped our kids for the attacks the world would throw at us.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Worth a listen: The Case for God

 

[OzSpen]

Free, The things I have posted are the things that God has revealed to us by His Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. That is the Spirit God has given the Born again believer, not another spirit of the world, so that we might know the things that are freely given by God to all born again believers.

Doug,

The things I have posted, starting with the OP, have been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I, as a born again believer, have God's Spirit living in me. Are you suggesting that what you wrote about the existence of God is from His Spirit and what I wrote is NOT from His Spirit?

How are you going to discern that what you write is correct and what I write is wrong?

Oz

 

[Douglas Summers]

Doug,

The things I have posted, starting with the OP, have been revealed to me by the Holy Spirit. I, as a born again believer, have God's Spirit living in me. Are you suggesting that what you wrote about the existence of God is from His Spirit and what I wrote is NOT from His Spirit?

How are you going to discern that what you write is correct and what I write is wrong?

Oz

Hi Oz,Your idea of videos was your thoughts. My idea about not using videos was my thoughts. My concern is that (and I have seen it so) It has no Spiritual drawing. it is just information. The Christian world is dying with visual aids. The author may well present a good argument, that's fine. It was not personally against you. How could a born again believer be against another? When I said "I don't understand how people rely on visual aids instead of Spirit filled teaching was a broad statement about the teaching methods, and from there it got misunderstood.
The Holy Spirit has suffered with my wayward ways until He brought me to maturity. And like Paul, I feel like I have to tell of all that He has done (Supernaturally) in service and life to prove my fellowship with the Father. And yes, it was the Spirit of the Lord that grieves me of the state of affairs in the many Spiritless teachings. I had no judgment of whether or not you have the Holy Spirit. And I never said you were wrong, My Posting had to do with the difference with visual aids and the Spirit filled preaching to prove the existence of God. And I posted Scripture to show what the Spirit was feeding me to keep the faith. I'm sorry you did not understand, but none of what I posted was out of pride or arrogance, but out of zeal for creation to know the Lord in his Spirit, nature and purpose.

In Christ
Douglas Summers
I hope this helped

 

[OzSpen]

Hi Oz,Your idea of videos was your thoughts. My idea about not using videos was my thoughts. My concern is that (and I have seen it so) It has no Spiritual drawing. it is just information. The Christian world is dying with visual aids. The author may well present a good argument, that's fine. It was not personally against you. How could a born again believer be against another? When I said "I don't understand how people rely on visual aids instead of Spirit filled teaching was a broad statement about the teaching methods, and from there it got misunderstood.

Doug,

Since when did the presentation of the Gospel and dealing with apologetic topics through use of videos not have spiritual drawing power? That's your idea. It is not mine.

Facts are that it is not just information. Is is persuasion that the Holy Spirit is using world-wide to break down the walls of resistance against Christ and the Gospel. How do I know? I use it in my country and people are drawn to Christ.

I consider that your premise is false that visual aids cannot be used by the Holy Spirit to draw people to Christ. Why did Jesus use parables? They were down to earth stories to draw people to God and Jesus. Same with apologetic material.

Obviously apologetics is not your forte, but I do not consider it appropriate that you speak negatively against an apologetic ministry when the Scriptures command us to 'sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason for your hope' (1 Peter 3:15 NAB). For some (not you), that explanation will include visual aids.

When I preach, where possible I use PPTs with the sermon to help people grasp the main points I'm making. And have a guess what? I sometimes use graphics to draw special attention to certain points. That's not being unspiritual. It's being a creative Bible teacher (1 Cor 12:28 ESV; Eph 4:11-12 ESV) to equip the saints for the work of ministry and to help draw people to Christ.

Oz