Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[RudolfRed]

How could Peter have been the first Pope, and head of a Church, the R.C.C., consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, when Paul clearly wrote of his and Peter's latter roles, as given by God,

Where Peter clearly became, as so assigned by God, an Evangelist to the Jews?

Galatians 2:8 "For He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles"

Peter was not the first, or any Pope at all.

 

[donadams]

Yes WE do.
Please be more specific that YOU don't believe the Bible is reliable on it's own.

I did not say that
I said the doctrine of the “Bible alone “

Bible yes with the authentic interpretation of the teaching authority of christ
Bible alone, free for all every man for himself no! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Apostolic succession: apostles must remain till Christ returns Matt 28:19-20



Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.

 

[donadams]

So what is your definition of an apostle?

One who is sent
Christ sent the apostles and they send more apostles until Christ returns

Here is the complete sentence (verses are artificial divisions): "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age." Matthew 28:19-20

The end of the age is not the end of the world, otherwise it would say "end of the world".

it does

Matthew 28:19-20

King James Version
(Not a catholic version)
​

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

 

[donadams]

a) "Bible alone", i.e., sola scriptura, is one of five "solas".
b) It is not a false doctrine simply because your priests tell you it is. They have to justify their invented doctrine.
c) Who is "we"? Do you have multiple personalities?

Mere human tradition
The first solas are the tradition of men Luther in fact never taught by the apostles or church
Bible alone is contradicted by Christ who founded a church and commanded apostles to teach and sanctify all men Matt 28:19 for example

 

[Paul Timothy]

I did not say that
I said the doctrine of the “Bible alone “

And I paraphrased you. Distinction without a difference.

Bible yes with the authentic interpretation of the teaching authority of christ
Bible alone, free for all every man for himself no! Eph 4:5 Jude 1:3

Nothing in Eph 4:5 nor Jude 1:3 even address Bible alone doctrine.
You have made a opinion statement and backed it up with verses that say nothing about your opinion.
Do you believe that people will not look up the references?

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Opinion.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

OK I am not looking all that up... but you are at odds with Christ with replacement theology.
We are grafted into the body. You and I are adopted Jews... get used to the idea.

I can go no further with your post as you have made too many fundamental errors in your theology.

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Apostolic succession: apostles must remain till Christ returns Matt 28:19-20



Authority of the Apostles!

What authority does Christ have?
What power does Christ have?
What mission / ministry does Christ have?

Peter, the apostles and their successors have the same authority, power, and mission!

Jn 20:21 as my father sent me, even so send I you!

John 17:18
As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

The apostles are Christ’s successors!
They have authority to send others as well until Christ returns in glory!

apostle means one who is sent!

Therefore the apostles have authority to send more apostles or successors!

Apostolic succession!

The nations still need to be taught, disciples still need to be baptized and the church the new covenant kingdom of christ still needs to be governed!

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

Christ is an apostle, and has authority to send other apostles, the apostles also have this authority, so the apostles continue down thru the centuries as Christ promised! Matt 28:19-20

Keys of authority! And power to bind and loose! Matt 16:18 and Matt 18:18 matt 28:19 Isa 22:21-22

Moral authority:
(Teaching)
Necessity of being taught by Christ:
Two edge sword: defining truth and condemning errors, and Interpreting scripture.

Jurisdictional authority:
(Governing / administering)
Necessity of Peter and the apostles and their successors to govern the holy church.

Spiritual authority:
(Life of Grace)
Sanctifying thru the mass and Sacraments for the forgiveness of sin.

You keep making these huge speeches and always the first few words contain the fault.
This is akin to writing a doctoral thesis and making an addition error on page one.
Maybe slow your preaching to one or two points and wait for the debate to be settled, or at least clarified, before moving on.
I only will address the first few errors and ignore the rest.

 

[Paul Timothy]

One who is sent
Christ sent the apostles and they send more apostles until Christ returns

Again you provide no scriptural references to back your opinion.

So why are there not 12 Popes? I have been sent by my Church on missions... was I an Apostle?
Your definition leaves much to be desired.

 

[donadams]

I only ask questions that I wish answers to.
If your answers do not make sense to me I will challenge them.
What pride are you talking about? I don't think I have been proud here at all.
Questions are the basis of humility when facing another persons different ideas.
If you don't want to answer just say so and I will not ask anymore... but if you put forward and idea... prepare to be challenged on it. I always am open to discuss and defend my beliefs or to modify my ideas when presented with reason to change. I wish everyone would approach their discussions with others with humility and openness.
Don't accept everything someone says... test their ideas to destruction. Like you do with concrete when building a skyscraper. You test the extreme limits of the matter... not just the look/feel/surface of the thing.

Ok I appreciate it

 

[donadams]

Ok Paul These are large subjects so one thing at a time please

Matt 10 has a list of apostles including both James

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mathias replaced Judas and acts 2:14 has Peter and the eleven including Mathias

How do you understand
Matt 17:24-27?

 

[donadams]

My Jesus gives life to anyone He is pleased to "give" life to. If babies die where do their souls end up? My answer in heaven.

As God wills, but they are devoid of grace and He said heaven is closed without the grace of baptismal regeneration Jn 3:5

Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

We hope in the mercy of God

 

[Paul Timothy]

Ok Paul These are large subjects so one thing at a time please

Matt 10 has a list of apostles including both James

Edit to correct post... Yes 2 James' and I fail to understand the point still.
I remove any accusation against your character in this post and corrected it with this edit.

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Mathias replaced Judas and acts 2:14 has Peter and the eleven including Mathias

By the hand of man and not God. But yes.

How do you understand
Matt 17:24-27?

I understand the story as written.
I see no deeper meaning than that Jesus is the son of the King and we all are also children of the King.
Nothing specific to Peter or the Apostles.

 

[donadams]

lots of red tape. Do you have the Spirit of Christ in you? Yes or No

Not without the sacraments

Ez 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[donadams]

God does all that "He" is pleased to do. He chose Paul before Paul had done good or bad. That's called by grace.

But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me
A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.

14“Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

He is an apostle by the will of Christ not by acts 1

 

[JLB]

OK so you are doing exactly what I said you did.
Hyper-literal reading of your posts and glossing over my posts without understanding.
In the quote you posted I said a reasonable person would infer... please keep the facts correct.

Again I never said James was the 12th apostle.

If you want to attack me with derogatory remarks, then that is your choice.

James was an apostle before Paul.

Matthias replaced Judas as one of the twelve who literally followed Jesus Christ.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Not without the sacraments

Ez 36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

No mention of man made sacraments.

Just what the Lord Himself will do.



JLB

 

[Paul Timothy]

Again I never said James was the 12th apostle.

I believe I said that it was implied. You have address that issue a few times. Time to let it go and move on with your life.

If you want to attack me with derogatory remarks, then that is your choice.

What derogatory remarks did I make... I don't recall any.

James was an apostle before Paul.

So if James was before Paul and I was saying that Paul was the 12th then logically it follows that you are implying that James was the 12th. But you say you are not doing that... but here we are again.

Matthias replaced Judas as one of the twelve who literally followed Jesus Christ.

By the hands of men and not God.(shortened for clarity)

 

[donadams]

The Bible says what it says. "By grace you have been saved" That is the Present Perfect Continuous tense that talks about action that started in the past and is continuing now. If you understood English verb tenses you would understand this.

Then you write "We are saved by grace, the grace received at baptism", even though the Bible disagrees with that untruth. Again, why weren't all those whom John baptized saved???

Of course, your mind set prevents you from accepting what the Bible clearly says. Instead you believe Catholic doctrine, even when it disagrees with the Bible.

Refers to redemption not salvation

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)


Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!

Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!

(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[JLB]

I believe I said that it was implied. You have address that issue a few times. Time to let it go and move on with your life.


What derogatory remarks did I make... I don't recall any.

So if James was before Paul and I was saying that Paul was the 12th then logically it follows that you are implying that James was the 12th. But you say you are not doing that... but here we are again.

By the hands of men and not God.(shortened for clarity)

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
“For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and, Let another take his office.’
“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.
Acts 1:15-24


Here is the apostle Peter establishing the criteria based in scripture:

• Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

• For it is written in the Book of Psalms:Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’;and, Let another take his office.’

Now Peter says that the requirement of their being a witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, from among those who followed Him, must be satisfied.

• “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

So with 120 disciples present and in agreement, they prayed that the Lord would choose between the two.

• And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.

And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26


The practice of casting lots is mentioned seventy times in the Old Testament and seven times in the New Testament.

The practice of casting lots occurs most often in connection with the division of the land under Joshua (Joshua chapters 14-21), a procedure that God instructed the Israelites on several times in the book of Numbers (Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2). God allowed the Israelites to cast lots in order to determine His will for a given situation (Joshua 18:6-10; 1 Chronicles 24:5,31). Various offices and functions in the temple were also determined by lot (1 Chronicles 24:5, 31; 25:8-9; 26:13-14). https://www.gotquestions.org/casting-lots.html


Please explain why you don’t agree with the biblical method used to have the Lord decide which of the two disciples were to be chosen.




JLB

 

[donadams]

I have to out of spiritual conscience state my belief that the entire RCC and all of it's doctrines are 100% Blasphemous. With all due respect, that is simply what I believe as a Protestant. However, with that said, even if the devil, or hell itself, were to preach the gospel, then at least the gospel is preached. So I believe it is possible to be saved, even if one were a Roman Catholic, in my view in spite of, and not because of the Roman Catholic Church. So yes a Roman Catholic can be saved, even if I hold that that is not the fruit of the RCC, but rather because that person heeded the call of the internal evidence God, which God placed as a witness within all of us, and on a one by one personal basis, simply received the gift of salvation thru grace, thru faith.

And I do not feel obligated to have to have a scriptural debate, to have a conviction, and basis by which I have to debate scripture to have and hold to a belief, to my belief. However if you want a scriptural debate I am willing to dive into such a little. But the primary problem I see with the premise of this thread, respectfully requesting a "scriptural debate," is the basic flaw that we think we are intellectually, and spiritually capable of doing so 100% competently. We each have our own degree of competence, and knowledge, or lack thereof, and tend to make such debates about our skills, rather than of God's skills. What I mean is, God requires a wrestling match with each of us, to test our love, and commitment, because God qants to display both our strengths and weaknesses, because there are lessons there on how one did or did not cling to God with all of the faith, and love they could have, or did not, and were more weak and not committed as they should have been. But yes I believe Roman Catholics can be, and in cases, are saved.

God is very Ambiguous in scripture, all over the place, thus requiring the diligent study the NT actually tells us is necessary. And thus we in many cases must study many comparative scripture to flesh out a doctrine and belief. And while it is true that the development of man adding chapter and verse to scripture, has given artificial breaking points or division in scripture as such.

But I also see that as a gift from God, though it is argued intellectually otherwise, as God guides mankind to have more and more tools, against the mocking hand of critics. And with that having been said, I would like to begin. Depending on what translation on prefers, lets begin with 1 Cor 11:19 "For there must be also heresies among you, that they who are approved may be made manifest among you." or "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you," etc.., And so we see divisions or even heresies must exist amongst us, so that those who are approved may be made manifest amongst you. However in line with our wrestling match, as I posit, we become manifest, or not, in degree as well as strength, meaning we can prove our faith is real, or not, and even how strong our faith is, or isn't We can even have faith, and be a real hot mess, not knowing how to argue, by not submitting to allowing God to argue thru us, which in fact likewise does not negate our wrestling match. So do the persons involved hear what they needed to, and not necessarily what they intended for them to hear?

1 Corinthians 1: and specifically 1 Cor 1:18-31 says a lot. It says quite a lot, but in my view, as such, also hints clearly at, and describes the nature of this wrestling match, with additional caveats as to what God is up to. It teaches that the message preached, of Christ crucified, is foolishness, foolishness for those who do not believe, but also the power of God, for those who do believe. And how God chose the foolish things of the world, ( as the world thinks, ) to shame the wise, etc.., And this powerful open, in one of my absolute favorite epistles of Paul, opens with this powerful open, long before 1 Cor 11:19 in which we are told factions / heresies are necessary as well. .....And as such I will present passages of Scripture on how I clearly interpret them, which will bring absolute disagreement with those who will oppose me, and call me all kinds of things, while they choose to interpret differently.

And while I feel the RCC is the very model for heresy, I also feel it is a representative heresy, of what we all face, as the Greek Orthodox Church of the Byzantine Empire, to the Church in Ethiopia Africa, to the Eastern Orthodox Church, in roughly the areas of Ancient Persia, to Protestantism, and Protestant Denominations, to the Kingdom of the Cults of so many Fake Protestant or Fake Post Protestant Churches show, that basically most all of us, and I do mean most all are in error based on our church beliefs, with us saved, or not, as individuals, and again, in spite of how good, or not, our churches are.

So in the book of Acts we see early on that Peter has a good leading role in witnessing the faith, and even has two very good epistles in the NT. However his role in Acts eventually disappears, in that it does not continue to specify what he was up to. And Peter in his epistles wrote highly of Paul, and of Paul being scriptural. And Paul returns the action, and writes highly of Peter. So they both wrote highly of, and established the role and authority of each other.

So in Galatians Paul wrote of the latter mission of Peter and Paul both, and not of Peter's early appearances and works, early in Acts, or even of his two epistles, but wrote of both of their latter missions as so giv en by God, when Paul wrote :

Galatians 2:7-8​

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.
8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

So how can Peter have been a Bishop of Rome, and the first Pope, and head up a Church, consisting of both Jews and Gentiles alike, when Paul clearly wrote that Peter's role had evolved into, as per God obviously, into that of an Evangelist to the Jews?

Peter was clearly not the first Pope, and the entire RCC is 100% A Lie!!!!

100% Blasphemous.

Really? Even though Protestants agree on somewhere near 75 percent of catholic dogma ?

Can you be saved without a priest?
Thanks

Please explain Matt 17:24-27?

 

[Paul Timothy]

And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, “Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”
(Now this man purchased a field with the wages of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst open in the middle and all his entrails gushed out. And it became known to all those dwelling in Jerusalem; so that field is called in their own language, Akel Dama, that is, Field of Blood.)
“For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and, Let another take his office.’
“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”
And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.
Acts 1:15-24


Here is the apostle Peter establishing the criteria based in scripture:

• Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry.”

• For it is written in the Book of Psalms:Let his dwelling place be desolate, And let no one live in it’;and, Let another take his office.’

Now Peter says that the requirement of their being a witness to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, from among those who followed Him, must be satisfied.

• “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

So with 120 disciples present and in agreement, they prayed that the Lord would choose between the two.

• And they proposed two: Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen.

And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:26


The practice of casting lots is mentioned seventy times in the Old Testament and seven times in the New Testament.

The practice of casting lots occurs most often in connection with the division of the land under Joshua (Joshua chapters 14-21), a procedure that God instructed the Israelites on several times in the book of Numbers (Numbers 26:55; 33:54; 34:13; 36:2). God allowed the Israelites to cast lots in order to determine His will for a given situation (Joshua 18:6-10; 1 Chronicles 24:5,31). Various offices and functions in the temple were also determined by lot (1 Chronicles 24:5, 31; 25:8-9; 26:13-14). https://www.gotquestions.org/casting-lots.html


Please explain why you don’t agree with the biblical method used to have the Lord decide which of the two disciples were to be chosen.




JLB

I don't see Jesus saying that dice is the proper way to choose leadership.
Why not use the urim and thummim as was truly prescribed by God?
But I am sure you know best.

 

[RudolfRed]

How could Peter have been the first Pope, and head of a Church, the R.C.C., consisting of Jews and Gentiles alike, when Paul clearly wrote of his and Peter's latter roles, as given by God,

Where Peter clearly became, as so assigned by God, an Evangelist to the Jews?

Galatians 2:8 "For He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles"

Peter was not the first, or any Pope at all.

And yet nothing said here in this thread exonerates the lie that is the Roman Catholic Church. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:8 of their latter mission in Christ Jesus, after the birth of the church at Pentecost, and beyond, where the few apostles began to write gospels and epistles, etc.., and work their works of faith, to demonstrate their fruit of faithfulness Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - So that they walked in their works of faith, prepared for them beforehand, in which in Gal 2:8 Paul so revealed the evolving mission of Peter and Paul, was that Peter was then assigned by God to be an Evangelist and Shephard to the Jews, for those who would believe, and not of the Gentiles, and therefore was not only not a Bishop of Rome, but not the first Pope, of an alleged Church, rather than the Lying Cult it is, consisting of a lot more Gentiles, than Jews.

And therefore their was no so called apostolic succession from and thru Peter to the other alleged Popes, in their fake apostolic succession from and thru Peter, before this Lie of a Cult, falsely claiming to be the one true church, before this cult eventually historically did grow, and eventually did have their Popes, based on their fake and lying claims, of a false pedigree which never ever, ever, went thru Peter at all.

The early, and earliest of the church fathers proved they were just as crazy as we are today. They were a very mixed bag, as we are likewise today. And many of them believed a lot of screwy things, like we believe today. They were all over the place in what they believed, and fought over such differences, just as we do today likewise as well.

I can't remember the title, but years ago found a little white book I bought on Amazon I believe, on a sampling of beliefs of the early Church fathers, and had to have it, because it showed they were just as nuts as we are today. For example there were those who believed that Jesus' earthly ministry lasted for only one year, while others believed it lasted for ten, etc.., even though there are only three passovers believed to be mentioned in the gospel accounts. And there were Bishoprics, or seats of Bishops all over the place from Antioch, Alexandria, etc.., etc.., etc.., thru Rome, and beyond. And there were a few nuts, such as a Bishop of Rome, who believed a false tale that Peter may have been a Bishop of Rome, and therefore claimed he, and Rome should have more authority and say, to which some of the other bishops tore him a new one for demanding such authority he didn't deserve. They listened to rumors and old wives tales, etc.., and made all kinds of spurious claims.

And the early church fathers were very long winded too, and wouldn't say something in less than 200 words, when 20 would do. And so left us over 3+ million quotes, references, and allusions, etc.., From which we can construct a lot, including how nuts they often were. And like that little white book, someone needs to write an updated version, to show even more how nuts they were.

So in the end, they take arguments on such rumors, and old wives tales, and unproven rumors and unproven old wives tales to boot, to try and prove a false and lying pedigree for the Roman Catholic Church being falsely having been claimed to have been founded upon Peter - When the only thing that matters, against al of the old unproven rumors and unproven old wives tales, like that one or two Bishops of Rome claiming these lies, to which the other Bishops put them back in their place - With the only thing that matters is that Galatians 2:8, and Galatians 2:8 alone, contradicts all of the false lies they have constructed since. The RCC is a massive cult, constructed on massive lies, which have been proven to be lies and falsehoods time and time again.