Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[JLB]

I see you finally are getting to the point of asking interesting questions.
So... my church had the authority to send me on a missions trip... was I an Apostle?

That would be like asking if someone prophesied to someone else, are they a prophet?


Being sent on a mission by a local church is not the same as being in the office of an apostle.


For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and, let another take his office.’
Acts 1:20




JLB

 

[Paul Timothy]

That would be like asking if someone prophesied to someone else, are they a prophet?


Being sent on a mission by a local church is not the same as being in the office of an apostle.


For it is written in the Book of Psalms:
Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it’;
and, let another take his office.’
Acts 1:20

And that is why I asked you to define Apostle.
You said "sent one".
I was sent so by your definition I am an apostle.
Or would you like to modify your definition?

 

[Randy]

And yet nothing said here in this thread exonerates the lie that is the Roman Catholic Church. Paul wrote in Galatians 2:8 of their latter mission in Christ Jesus, after the birth of the church at Pentecost, and beyond, where the few apostles began to write gospels and epistles, etc.., and work their works of faith, to demonstrate their fruit of faithfulness Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you have been saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not as a result of works, that no one should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." - So that they walked in their works of faith, prepared for them beforehand, in which in Gal 2:8 Paul so revealed the evolving mission of Peter and Paul, was that Peter was then assigned by God to be an Evangelist and Shephard to the Jews, for those who would believe, and not of the Gentiles, and therefore was not only not a Bishop of Rome, but not the first Pope, of an alleged Church, rather than the Lying Cult it is, consisting of a lot more Gentiles, than Jews.

And therefore their was no so called apostolic succession from and thru Peter to the other alleged Popes, in their fake apostolic succession from and thru Peter, before this Lie of a Cult, falsely claiming to be the one true church, before this cult eventually historically did grow, and eventually did have their Popes, based on their fake and lying claims, of a false pedigree which never ever, ever, went thru Peter at all.

The early, and earliest of the church fathers proved they were just as crazy as we are today. They were a very mixed bag, as we are likewise today. And many of them believed a lot of screwy things, like we believe today. They were all over the place in what they believed, and fought over such differences, just as we do today likewise as well.

I can't remember the title, but years ago found a little white book I bought on Amazon I believe, on a sampling of beliefs of the early Church fathers, and had to have it, because it showed they were just as nuts as we are today. For example there were those who believed that Jesus' earthly ministry lasted for only one year, while others believed it lasted for ten, etc.., even though there are only three passovers believed to be mentioned in the gospel accounts. And there were Bishoprics, or seats of Bishops all over the place from Antioch, Alexandria, etc.., etc.., etc.., thru Rome, and beyond. And there were a few nuts, such as a Bishop of Rome, who believed a false tale that Peter may have been a Bishop of Rome, and therefore claimed he, and Rome should have more authority and say, to which some of the other bishops tore him a new one for demanding such authority he didn't deserve. They listened to rumors and old wives tales, etc.., and made all kinds of spurious claims.

And the early church fathers were very long winded too, and wouldn't say something in less than 200 words, when 20 would do. And so left us over 3+ million quotes, references, and allusions, etc.., From which we can construct a lot, including how nuts they often were. And like that little white book, someone needs to write an updated version, to show even more how nuts they were.

So in the end, they take arguments on such rumors, and old wives tales, and unproven rumors and unproven old wives tales to boot, to try and prove a false and lying pedigree for the Roman Catholic Church being falsely having been claimed to have been founded upon Peter - When the only thing that matters, against al of the old unproven rumors and unproven old wives tales, like that one or two Bishops of Rome claiming these lies, to which the other Bishops put them back in their place - With the only thing that matters is that Galatians 2:8, and Galatians 2:8 alone, contradicts all of the false lies they have constructed since. The RCC is a massive cult, constructed on massive lies, which have been proven to be lies and falsehoods time and time again.

My paternal grandparents were life long Catholics so much so they spent alot of money to send their children to private catholic schools instead of public schools. They were not members of a cult they were Christians. My sister is catholic. She is a Christian. It works both ways as my Catholic father had to convert to Lutheran in order to marry my Lutheran mother in a Lutheran church. To me that is nonsense and rules and traditions of man but I am not one in any authority so it doesn't really matter.

Its a shame but this still exists to this day.

My brothers and sisters, some from Chloe’s household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”

13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?

 

[JLB]

And that is why I asked you to define Apostle.
You said "sent one".
I was sent so by your definition I am an apostle.
Or would you like to modify your definition?

Again, as I said, just because a local church sends someone n a “missions” trip, which could include humanitarian needs, building supplies, teaching, preaching or any other various ministry functions within the framework of the “ministry of helps” doesn’t mean that person, who the local church sends is an apostle, anymore than someone who gives a prophecy is a prophet.


An apostle is a person who is “sent” by God, with the authority and power of heaven, primarily to raise up churches in a region, and appoint elders and leaders in the church that is raised up, as well as to equip and impart various grace giftings to them which includes laying on of hands to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also when necessary to deal with demonic opposition to their assignment with power and signs and wonders.


The Holy Spirit “sent” Paul out, through a local church leadership which included the local leadership fasting, praying, and laying hands on Paul for this commission.



Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. And when they arrived in Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They also had John as their assistant.
Now when they had gone through the island to Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus,
who was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, an intelligent man. This man called for Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. But Elymas the sorcerer (for so his name is translated) withstood them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.

Then Saul, who also is called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him and said, “O full of all deceit and all fraud, you son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, will you not cease perverting the straight ways of the Lord? And now, indeed, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you shall be blind, not seeing the sun for a time.”
And immediately a dark mist fell on him, and he went around seeking someone to lead him by the hand. Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had been done, being astonished at the teaching of the Lord. Acts 13:1-12




JLB

 

[donadams]

And I paraphrased you. Distinction without a difference.

Nothing in Eph 4:5 nor Jude 1:3 even address Bible alone doctrine.
You have made a opinion statement and backed it up with verses that say nothing about your opinion.
Do you believe that people will not look up the references?

Opinion.

OK I am not looking all that up... but you are at odds with Christ with replacement theology.
We are grafted into the body. You and I are adopted Jews... get used to the idea.

I can go no further with your post as you have made too many fundamental errors in your theology.


You keep making these huge speeches and always the first few words contain the fault.
This is akin to writing a doctoral thesis and making an addition error on page one.
Maybe slow your preaching to one or two points and wait for the debate to be settled, or at least clarified, before moving on.
I only will address the first few errors and ignore the rest.

Eph 4:5 one faith that everyone must believe for salvation not study the Bible and make your own faith.
Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15?


Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Apostolic succession: apostles must remain till Christ returns Matt 28:19-20

 

[Paul Timothy]

Again, as I said, just because a local church sends someone n a “missions” trip, which could include humanitarian needs, building supplies, teaching, preaching or any other various ministry functions within the framework of the “ministry of helps” doesn’t mean that person, who the local church sends is an apostle, anymore than someone who gives a prophecy is a prophet.

By definition a person who gives a prophecy is a prophet.

An apostle is a person who is “sent” by God, with the authority and power of heaven, primarily to raise up churches in a region, and appoint elders and leaders in the church that is raised up, as well as to equip and impart various grace giftings to them which includes laying on of hands to receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Also when necessary to deal with demonic opposition to their assignment with power and signs and wonders.

So now your definition of an Apostle is changing.
So your new definition defines what I did on missions... so am I an Apostle?

The Holy Spirit “sent” Paul out, through a local church leadership which included the local leadership fasting, praying, and laying hands on Paul for this commission.

So same as me.
Am I an Apostle now?
You have not shown anything that would say I am not one.
Many signs and wonders(nothing flashy, but miraculous) accompanied my time on the mission field.
So according to you I am an Apostle and I can now proclaim someone as Pope.

Would you like to tighten up your definition of an Apostle now?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Eph 4:5 one faith that everyone must believe for salvation not study the Bible and make your own faith.
Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15?

I have never said such a thing.
You are making things up and trying to put it in my mouth?

Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

The successors is the only part I have questions about.

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Apostolic succession: apostles must remain till Christ returns Matt 28:19-20

Just because you include references(out of context) does not clarify your point.
Or are you wishing to confuse your point with random references.

I am not looking up any of your references as I have proven in past posts that you reference things way out of context.
Pick ONE reference I a believe you will misrepresent it.
You pick.

 

[donadams]

Again you provide no scriptural references to back your opinion.

So why are there not 12 Popes? I have been sent by my Church on missions... was I an Apostle?
Your definition leaves much to be desired.

Jn 29:21 apostles are sent by Christ with the same mission power and authority

 

[donadams]

Sorry Jn 20:21

 

[donadams]

Edit to correct post... Yes 2 James' and I fail to understand the point still.
I remove any accusation against your character in this post and corrected it with this edit.

By the hand of man and not God. But yes.

I understand the story as written.
I see no deeper meaning than that Jesus is the son of the King and we all are also children of the King.
Nothing specific to Peter or the Apostles.

I thought Jesus was the only mediator, why is Peter acting in Christ’s role?
Why does Jesus identify himself with Peter in this intimate way even to perform a miracle but to the exclusion of the other apostles?

 

[Paul Timothy]

Sorry Jn 20:21

So I see you can't even keep the references straight... but I guess that happens to us all at one time or another.
So nothing in the verse you quoted says anything about power, authority nor mission.
Just that as Jesus was sent... the Disciples were sent.
Nothing there implies power, authority or mission... it is just a sending.
You are reading into the verse the things you wish to see.
We all do that from time to time.
Learn from our mistakes and we grow. Right?

 

[donadams]

No mention of man made sacraments.

Just what the Lord Himself will do.



JLB

There are no man made sacraments, the sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice of Christ, his grace and merits
You oppose and accuse Christ here for he instituted the seven sacraments of grace

Baptism: (initiation into the covenant)
Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38-39 8:36
1 Corinthians 12:13 2 pet 1:11
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

The Eucharist: (holy communion)
Mt 26:26-39 Jn 6:51-58 1 Cor 11:23-25

Confession of sins:
Jn 20:23 / 1 Jn 1:9 / 2 cor 5:18

Confirmation
Lk 22:32 acts 8:14-17
acts 14:22

Marriage:
Matt 19:4-6

Holy orders: (priesthood)
Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru His priesthood in Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 10:1-8 Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 acts 1:17 acts 6:4 acts 8:26
2 Cor 5:18 1 Tim 4:14 Eph 2:20

Extreme unction: (anointing with oil)
1 Tim 4:14 James 5:14

The ark of salvation: one, holy, catholic, (universal) and apostolic church founded by Jesus Christ on Peter and the apostles!

 

[Paul Timothy]

I thought Jesus was the only mediator, why is Peter acting in Christ’s role?

So will Peter be on the Great White Throne?
Or... a better question... will Peter justify souls before God?
What mediation are you referring to?
Where is Peter acting in Christ's role?

Why does Jesus identify himself with Peter in this intimate way even to perform a miracle but to the exclusion of the other apostles?

What intimate way?
When are the other disciples excluded?
If you are going to make wild claims... please provide references so the rest of us can check your work.
Thank you.

 

[jaybo]

Eph 4:5 one faith that everyone must believe for salvation not study the Bible and make your own faith.
Jude 1:3 the faith once delivered to the saints

Verses that contradict “sola scriptura”!

Matt 5:14
Matt 18:17
Matt 28:19
Lk 1:4
Lk 10:16
Jn 8:32
Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21
Acts 1:8
Acts 2:42
Acts 8:26
Acts 8:31
Acts 18:25
1 cor 11:23
1 thes 2:23
2 thes 2:15
Col 2:7
Eph 4:5
Heb 13:7
Heb 13:17
1 Tim 3:15
1 Jn 1:3-5
2 Jn 1:12
Jude 1:3

How can it be said scripture is “sole authority” or the only source of truth or the rule of faith when scripture says we must hear the church Matt 18:17 the apostles are the light of the world Matt 5:14 we must hold the doctrine of the apostles acts 2:42 the church is the pillar and ground of truth 1 Tim 3:15?


Teaching authority of the Apostles and their successors founded in the one true church by Jesus Christ!

Jesus Christ is the head of the church, (eph 5:23) the body of Christ,
(col 1:18) the new and eternal covenant, (pre-figured Jer 31:31) (Heb 8:8) new covenant replaces the Mosaic covenant, (Heb 8:13) holy mother church replaced Israel Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Christ replaces David as king, (Lk 1:32-33) Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and men, (1 Tim 2:5 & Heb 12:24) but a mediator remains on earth mediating between God and His people, but Christ ascended to heaven, (acts 1) before He did He founded His church, on Peter, and the apostles, and their successors!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 2:42 acts 8:31 & 35 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 16:13
Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20

Jesus Christ continues HIS ministry in His new covenant church thru Peter, the apostles, and their successors with the same mission, power, and authority!
Mt 16:18 Mt 28:19 Acts 1:17 acts 8:31 & 35 acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 Jn 8:32 Jn 13:20 Jn 15:5 Jn 16:13 Jn 20:21-22 eph 2:20 acts 2:42 1 Tim 3:15

Apostolic succession: apostles must remain till Christ returns Matt 28:19-20

Here is Ephesians 4 in context, " I, therefore, the prisoner in the Lord, beg you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called, with all humility and gentleness, with patience, bearing with one another in love, making every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace: there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all and through all and in all."

The one body is the body of Christ. Your denomination claims to be separate from the rest of Christ's body, so either you believe the Bible or you don't.

You quote the Bible, cite multiple verses, yet you discard it as the basis of faith. Interesting! Why do you quote the Bible if it isn't valid for people to read and interpret it? Can you spell "hypocrisy"?

 

[JLB]

There are no man made sacraments, the sacraments are the fruit of the sacrifice of Christ, his grace and merits
You oppose and accuse Christ here for he instituted the seven sacraments of grace

Please post a scripture that teaches us the word sacraments associated with biblical things.


You are repeating a lot of Catholic words and phrases, and I’m not sure if you understand what they mean, or if they are found in scripture.


If we are going sort out our differences then let’s please use scripture and the actual words of scripture to find common ground.


Let’s start with the word “sacrament”.


Please post a scripture that uses the word sacrament in it so we can both understand what sacrament means.




JLB

 

[donadams]

I see you finally are getting to the point of asking interesting questions.
So... my church had the authority to send me on a missions trip... was I an Apostle?

There is a s only one true church founded by Christ with His authority Matt 16:18
No apostles no authority no church

 

[Paul Timothy]

There is a s only one true church founded by Christ with His authority Matt 16:18
No apostles no authority no church

So you now deny the Church, authority and the existence of apostles?
And again you over reach on your interpenetration of the verse you quote.
Where is there any reference to exclusivity in Matt 16:18.
Implied exclusivity is not guaranteed exclusivity.

 

[donadams]

You can write complete books about Catholic doctrine, but I believe God's word, the Bible. You believe the teachings of men, i.e., a separate priesthood similar to that of the Old Testament, but only the Bible is 100% true. Numbers 23:19, "God is not a human being, that he should lie, or a mortal, that he should change his mind."

And never forget that the man you claim was the first Pope was called "Satan" by Jesus Himself.

You can claim all kinds of authority, but even now, where I live, the diocese had to pay $121,000,000 for the sexual abuse of children by Catholic priests.

Without the Catholic Church and the teaching authority of Christ in his apostles there would be no scripture

The church and the apostles with power and authority were founded before the New Testament, and and exercised authority before the New Testament and taught before the new testament and wrote the New Testament and cannonized the Bible!

The scripture belongs to the church not to you, the scripture (new) was written by the church by the inspiration of the spirit of Christ that operates only in the church with one exception, to draw men to Christ in His one true church.

Is the “word of God” limited to scripture alone?

 

[donadams]

I don't remember the words Prime Minister in the Bible in relation to Peter.
And you are misrepresenting the passage.
The passage is not Jesus praying for Peter.
The passage is Jesus saying to Peter that Jesus had prayed for Peter.
You may not understand the difference... but it is very different.

I don't say it is Peters confession... I call it Matthew 16:17.
Also in Matt 16:19-20 Jesus could easily be speaking to all the Disciples.
I don't see why Peter is being sectioned out as some special case.

The one who holds the keys of the kingdom is the prime minister over the other ministers

 

[Paul Timothy]

Without the Catholic Church and the teaching authority of Christ in his apostles there would be no scripture

Scripture refers to the OT.
So your view of the RCC and it's importance appears to be overblown.

The church and the apostles with power and authority were founded before the New Testament, and and exercised authority before the New Testament and taught before the new testament and wrote the New Testament and cannonized the Bible!

The OT was cannonized before the Disciples where born.
So the RCC is less important than you think.

The scripture belongs to the church not to you, the scripture (new) was written by the church by the inspiration of the spirit of Christ that operates only in the church with one exception, to draw men to Christ in His one true church.

Wow... the Word of God is the exclusive domain of a religious organization?

Is the “word of God” limited to scripture alone?

Is not the Word another name for Jesus?
And you are saying that Jesus now belongs to... is the property of... a club of people playing at fancy dress?
Bold move my boy.