Defending the faith: A discussion of Catholic Doctrine

[donadams]

Nuts! I have been praying to Jesus as far back as my memory goes. He answers. I highly suggest you seek that personnel relationship. So He doesn't state to you, "I don't know you"

Jesus=>Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Still need union with Christ gal 3:27

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

 

[donadams]

Where would infants go then? Don't you believe Jesus, the one who judges, has any say so in their outcome?

Neither Christ nor scripture nor the church has said where they go, not to hell “no personal sin” not heaven without being born again in baptism so it called limbo they are commended to the mercy of God, how God handles it we do not know, there are many mysteries in the faith

 

[Paul Timothy]

Are you really interested in learning!? or just want to spout your pride induced protest, pride always protests, always in rebellion

I only ask questions that I wish answers to.
If your answers do not make sense to me I will challenge them.
What pride are you talking about? I don't think I have been proud here at all.
Questions are the basis of humility when facing another persons different ideas.
If you don't want to answer just say so and I will not ask anymore... but if you put forward and idea... prepare to be challenged on it. I always am open to discuss and defend my beliefs or to modify my ideas when presented with reason to change. I wish everyone would approach their discussions with others with humility and openness.
Don't accept everything someone says... test their ideas to destruction. Like you do with concrete when building a skyscraper. You test the extreme limits of the matter... not just the look/feel/surface of the thing.

 

[Randy]

Neither Christ nor scripture nor the church has said where they go, not to hell “no personal sin” not heaven without being born again in baptism so it called limbo they are commended to the mercy of God, how God handles it we do not know, there are many mysteries in the faith

My Jesus gives life to anyone He is pleased to "give" life to. If babies die where do their souls end up? My answer in heaven.

 

[Randy]

Still need union with Christ gal 3:27

Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

lots of red tape. Do you have the Spirit of Christ in you? Yes or No

 

[Randy]

According to acts 1:21-22 Paul does not Qualify as an apostle

God does all that "He" is pleased to do. He chose Paul before Paul had done good or bad. That's called by grace.

But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleased 16 to reveal his Son in me
A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there. 13He stood beside me and said, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight!’ And at that very moment I was able to see him.

14“Then he said: ‘The God of our ancestors has chosen you to know his will and to see the Righteous One and to hear words from his mouth. 15You will be his witness to all people of what you have seen and heard.

 

[donadams]

All people have personal sin ever since the garden of Eden. And sprinkling them with water does not mean that they go to heaven. That is Catholic doctrine, but neither is in the Bible.

Mk 16:16
Jn 3:5

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

 

[donadams]

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

Read this carefully. A person is saved by faith; it is a gift from God. It cannot be earned by any kind of works or ritual.

If the Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant -- it isn't -- and must be ministered to you by the apostles, then nobody can enter the new covenant because all the apostles are dead.

No the apostles remain until the end Matt 28:19 the apostles have authority to send more apostles Jn 20:21 acts 1:15-26

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

This verse is already past tense when it was written so it CANNOT refer to your faith now or anytime in the last 60 years when you think you got saved. Matt 24:13 not saved until the end
And it says not your doing so it’s not “your” faith
It actually refers to baptism verses 1 and 5 he brought us to life “quickend”
We are saved by grace, the grace received at baptism
But eph 2:8 does not refer to salvation but redemption
The redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us in which Mary believed lk 1:45

 

[jaybo]

Mk 16:16
Jn 3:5

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!



Christ instituted the holy church for the salvation of all men, (repent and believe the gospel, with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!


Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!

This is nothing but the doctrine of the Catholic denomination, but it clearly disagrees with what the Bible says.

You write "You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”! You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!"

But the Bile says in Ephesians 2:8-9, " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

If you don't agree with that then you disagree with God. Guess whom I believe?

And then you write this: “Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture! But the Bible says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." John 3:16-18

If you don't agree with that then you disagree with God. Guess whom I believe?

You claim "The Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation", but that is not what the Bible says. Baptism is a ritual statement of death and rebirth. "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

If water baptism accomplished salvation then everyone baptized by John would have been saved and would have had no need for a Savior. So again, your Catholic doctrine disagrees with the Bible. "No baptism no grace!" is nonsense.

And you quote 2 Corinthians 5:17 to justify baptism, "Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17"
even though baptism isn't mentioned. "So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; look, new things have come into being!" Why do you distort God's word???

"No baptism no grace!" is total nonsense. Read the quote from Ephesians again.

"Jn 3:5 Born again water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!" is also false. When you include the following verse, "by water" clearly means natural birth. "Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." Born of the flesh is not water baptism.

Look, I can go on with many more examples. Believe what you want, even if your doctrine -- actually your priests' doctrine -- disgrees with what the Bible clearly says in context. Just like the ancient Jews, your separate priesthood has come up with all kinds of unBiblical doctrine to keep you under their control. Those of us who have been born of the Spirit and can read God's written word directly (without intermediaries) know the truth. We believe GOD, not men.

 

[donadams]

Not forgetting, of course, that Jesus called Peter "Satan" and a stumbling block to Him. And he denied knowing Jesus three times. Hopefully, Peter didn't pass anything of his human nature on to anyone!

Jesus was actually speaking to satan who used Peter, and Pentecost had not yet come they were not yet endowed with power for on high

 

[Paul Timothy]

No the apostles remain until the end Matt 28:19 the apostles have authority to send more apostles Jn 20:21 acts 1:15-26

John 20:21 does not say the apostles send more apostles.
And the Act reference only shows the Disciples playing dice instead of waiting on Gods direction.

 

[JLB]

But if I say Paul was the 12th and you point out that James came before Paul as an apostle... it is reasonable to infer that you are saying that James would be the 12th.

Again, I never said James was the 12th apostle.

Mathias was.

 

[Paul Timothy]

Again, I never said James was the twelth.

OK so you are doing exactly what I said you did.
Hyper-literal reading of your posts and glossing over my posts without understanding.
In the quote you posted I said a reasonable person would infer... please keep the facts correct.

 

[jaybo]

No the apostles remain until the end Matt 28:19 the apostles have authority to send more apostles Jn 20:21 acts 1:15-26


This verse is already past tense when it was written so it CANNOT refer to your faith now or anytime in the last 60 years when you think you got saved. Matt 24:13 not saved until the end
And it says not your doing so it’s not “your” faith
It actually refers to baptism verses 1 and 5 he brought us to life “quickend”
We are saved by grace, the grace received at baptism
But eph 2:8 does not refer to salvation but redemption
The redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us in which Mary believed lk 1:45

The Bible says what it says. "By grace you have been saved" That is the Present Perfect Continuous tense that talks about action that started in the past and is continuing now. If you understood English verb tenses you would understand this.

Then you write "We are saved by grace, the grace received at baptism", even though the Bible disagrees with that untruth. Again, why weren't all those whom John baptized saved???

Of course, your mind set prevents you from accepting what the Bible clearly says. Instead you believe Catholic doctrine, even when it disagrees with the Bible.

 

[donadams]

This is nothing but the doctrine of the Catholic denomination, but it clearly disagrees with what the Bible says.

You write "You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”! You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!"

But the Bile says in Ephesians 2:8-9, " For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— not the result of works, so that no one may boast."

If you don't agree with that then you disagree with God. Guess whom I believe?

And then you write this: “Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture! But the Bible says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life. “Indeed, God did not send the Son into the world to condemn the world but in order that the world might be saved through him. Those who believe in him are not condemned, but those who do not believe are condemned already because they have not believed in the name of the only Son of God." John 3:16-18

If you don't agree with that then you disagree with God. Guess whom I believe?

You claim "The Christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation", but that is not what the Bible says. Baptism is a ritual statement of death and rebirth. "Therefore we were buried with him by baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life." Romans 6:4

If water baptism accomplished salvation then everyone baptized by John would have been saved and would have had no need for a Savior. So again, your Catholic doctrine disagrees with the Bible. "No baptism no grace!" is nonsense.

And you quote 2 Corinthians 5:17 to justify baptism, "Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17"
even though baptism isn't mentioned. "So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; look, new things have come into being!" Why do you distort God's word???

"No baptism no grace!" is total nonsense. Read the quote from Ephesians again.

"Jn 3:5 Born again water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!" is also false. When you include the following verse, "by water" clearly means natural birth. "Jesus answered, “Very truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born of water and Spirit. What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit." Born of the flesh is not water baptism.

Look, I can go on with many more examples. Believe what you want, even if your doctrine -- actually your priests' doctrine -- disgrees with what the Bible clearly says in context. Just like the ancient Jews, your separate priesthood has come up with all kinds of unBiblical doctrine to keep you under their control. Those of us who have been born of the Spirit and can read God's written word directly (without intermediaries) know the truth. We believe GOD, not men.

Baptismal regeneration part of what we must believe Mk 16:16

No Jn 3:5 does not say born “natural” in water and born again by the spirit
It says born again by water and the spirit
AND AND AND
Acts 2:38
Acts 8:39-39
Effects of faith & baptism!

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!

 

[donadams]

You wrote this: "Peter is the rock that the church is built on by Christ!". Read my post immediately above this one (#339).

And this: "Peter exercises his authority over the apostles in the church!".. Peter had no authority over the (Jewish) apostles. James was the leader of the church in Jerusalem and Paul was the chief apostle to the Gentiles.

You might want to read what Paul wrote about Peter's behavior in Galatia to see what kind of person he actually was.

In matters of discipline an apostle may correct another apostle
But Peter and Christ are united

Christ sends Peter not his confession!

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter alone

Jn 21:17 Peter entrusted with the flock or church

Only Peter and His successors have
Jurisdictional authority from Christ to govern the church!

Already acting in the person of Christ even acting as intermediary!

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself!

Matt 17:24 And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?

25 He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the houser, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?

26 Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.

27 Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.

It is Jesus Christ who identifies peter with himself! Matt 17:27

Jesus Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to peter matt 16:18-19 making him prime minister applying Isa 22:21-22 to peter

It’s Christ who does this

Why is the name of peter even mentioned?

Why does Christ change Peter’s name, God changing a persons name like Abram to Abraham or Jacob to Israel always signifies a mission or ministry!

Why does Christ give him the keys of jurisdictional authority that the prime minister holds under the king to administer the kingdom? Isa 22:21-22

How do you govern the church and administer the kingdom with a confession?

How do you give jurisdictional authority to a confession? (Keys of the kingdom)

How do you give a confession the power to bind and loose?


also have to explain
Isa 22:21-22 jurisdictional authority of the keys and called father
Matt 28:19 go teach baptize
Jn 20:21-23 same mission power and authority as christ
Eph 2:20 church built on the apostles
Matt 23 successors of Moses have the jurisdictional authority and the power to bind and loose which Christ says must be obeyed, then taken from them matt 21:43 given to Peter and the apostles and their successors

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.



Applies only to Peter as “prince of the apostles”!

Peter and his successors are the Leader of the apostles and the head of the church until Christ returns!

First and chief apostle!

Matt 10:2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter,

Lk 22:29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: (plural Peter and his successors)
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Lk 22:32 Christ prayed for Peter!

Peter is head of the church on earth in the place of Christ until His return!

Isa 22:21-22 21 And I will clothe him with thy robe, and strengthen him with thy girdle, and I will commit thy government into his hand: and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah.

22 And the key of the house of David will I lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Matt 16:19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 23:1 power and authority of the kingdom known in the keys and binding and loosing, Matt 21:43 kingdom shall be taken from you given to another who will bear fruit. (Peter the apostles in holy church Lk 22:29)

Matt 17:27 Jesus identified peter with himself.

Matt 16:17 Peter alone received revelation from the Father

Lk 22:32 Peter to strengthen his brethren (the apostles)

Jn 21:17 feed my sheep

Peter exercises his authority over the apostles in the church!

Acts 1:15
Acts 3:4
Acts 5:5 5:10
Acts 10:44
Acts 15:7

ONLY TO PETER CHRIST SAID: THOU ART PETER AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILT MY CHURCH, AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!Matt 16:18

Peter is the prime minister, father, and head of the church on earth until Christ returns Isa 22:21-22

 

[donadams]

In other words, polygamy is forbidden. Elder means -- ready? -- elder. If it meant "priest" it would say "priest". (The word "priest" is mentioned in the New Testament 145 times)

Yes priest presbyter ordained

 

[donadams]

There are three kinds of new covenant priests

 

[Paul Timothy]

In matters of discipline an apostle may correct another apostle
But Peter and Christ are united

No Biblical references for this? Why can not anyone correct an apostle?
Have you defined what makes a person an apostle?

Christ sends Peter not his confession!

You keep saying that... what confession?
You are using these words but there is not intelligent meaning being conveyed.

Lk 22:32
Jesus prays for Peter alone

And this verse does not say Peter was the only one prayed for.
If I say to my son "son I have prayed for you today" does that mean I did not also pray for my daughter?
Was Jesus only able to pray for a single person at a time?

If this is your beginning of your arguments... well the outlook is not very good.
Try to make single points... discuss... and then move on to larger topics.

 

[RudolfRed]

I have to out of spiritual conscience state my belief that the entire RCC and all of it's doctrines are 100% Blasphemous. With all due respect, that is simply what I believe as a Protestant. However, with that said, even if the devil, or hell itself, were to preach the gospel, then at least the gospel is preached. So I believe it is possible to be saved, even if one were a Roman Catholic, in my view in spite of, and not because of the Roman Catholic Church. So yes a Roman Catholic can be saved, even if I hold that that is not the fruit of the RCC, but rather because that person heeded the call of the internal evidence God, which God placed as a witness within all of us, and on a one by one personal basis, simply received the gift of salvation thru grace, thru faith.

And I do not feel obligated to have to have a scriptural debate, to have a conviction, and basis by which I have to debate scripture to have and hold to a belief, to my belief. However if you want a scriptural debate I am willing to dive into such a little. But the primary problem I see with the premise of this thread, respectfully requesting a "scriptural debate," is the basic flaw that we think we are intellectually, and spiritually capable of doing so 100% competently. We each have our own degree of competence, and knowledge, or lack thereof, and tend to make such debates about our skills, rather than of God's skills. What I mean is, God requires a wrestling match with each of us, to test our love, and commitment, because God qants to display both our strengths and weaknesses, because there are lessons there on how one did or did not cling to God with all of the faith, and love they could have, or did not, and were more weak and not committed as they should have been. But yes I believe Roman Catholics can be, and in cases, are saved.

God is very Ambiguous in scripture, all over the place, thus requiring the diligent study the NT actually tells us is necessary. And thus we in many cases must study many comparative scripture to flesh out a doctrine and belief. And while it is true that the development of man adding chapter and verse to scripture, has given artificial breaking points or division in scripture as such.

But I also see that as a gift from God, though it is argued intellectually otherwise, as God guides mankind to have more and more tools, against the mocking hand of critics. And with that having been said, I would like to begin. Depending on what translation on prefers, lets begin with 1 Cor 11:19 "For there must be also heresies among you, that they who are approved may be made manifest among you." or "For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you," etc.., And so we see divisions or even heresies must exist amongst us, so that those who are approved may be made manifest amongst you. However in line with our wrestling match, as I posit, we become manifest, or not, in degree as well as strength, meaning we can prove our faith is real, or not, and even how strong our faith is, or isn't We can even have faith, and be a real hot mess, not knowing how to argue, by not submitting to allowing God to argue thru us, which in fact likewise does not negate our wrestling match. So do the persons involved hear what they needed to, and not necessarily what they intended for them to hear?

1 Corinthians 1: and specifically 1 Cor 1:18-31 says a lot. It says quite a lot, but in my view, as such, also hints clearly at, and describes the nature of this wrestling match, with additional caveats as to what God is up to. It teaches that the message preached, of Christ crucified, is foolishness, foolishness for those who do not believe, but also the power of God, for those who do believe. And how God chose the foolish things of the world, ( as the world thinks, ) to shame the wise, etc.., And this powerful open, in one of my absolute favorite epistles of Paul, opens with this powerful open, long before 1 Cor 11:19 in which we are told factions / heresies are necessary as well. .....And as such I will present passages of Scripture on how I clearly interpret them, which will bring absolute disagreement with those who will oppose me, and call me all kinds of things, while they choose to interpret differently.

And while I feel the RCC is the very model for heresy, I also feel it is a representative heresy, of what we all face, as the Greek Orthodox Church of the Byzantine Empire, to the Church in Ethiopia Africa, to the Eastern Orthodox Church, in roughly the areas of Ancient Persia, to Protestantism, and Protestant Denominations, to the Kingdom of the Cults of so many Fake Protestant or Fake Post Protestant Churches show, that basically most all of us, and I do mean most all are in error based on our church beliefs, with us saved, or not, as individuals, and again, in spite of how good, or not, our churches are.

So in the book of Acts we see early on that Peter has a good leading role in witnessing the faith, and even has two very good epistles in the NT. However his role in Acts eventually disappears, in that it does not continue to specify what he was up to. And Peter in his epistles wrote highly of Paul, and of Paul being scriptural. And Paul returns the action, and writes highly of Peter. So they both wrote highly of, and established the role and authority of each other.

So in Galatians Paul wrote of the latter mission of Peter and Paul both, and not of Peter's early appearances and works, early in Acts, or even of his two epistles, but wrote of both of their latter missions as so giv en by God, when Paul wrote :

Galatians 2:7-8​

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised.
8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles.

So how can Peter have been a Bishop of Rome, and the first Pope, and head up a Church, consisting of both Jews and Gentiles alike, when Paul clearly wrote that Peter's role had evolved into, as per God obviously, into that of an Evangelist to the Jews?

Peter was clearly not the first Pope, and the entire RCC is 100% A Lie!!!!