Did early Christians ever understand grace?

[FreeGrace]

As we all know faith in Christ's forgiveness is what justifies. Doing righteous things in the law hoping that God will declare you righteous for doing those righteous things can not justify you. That's why justification is by faith, apart from works of the law.

5 But to the one who does not work (to be justified--see context), but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, 6 just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works (of the law to be justified--see context)..." (Romans 4:5-6 NASB parenthesis mine)

Yes, we all know this.

This declaration of righteousness which is not achieved by doing works of the law, but apart from them, is then seen in righteous works of the law ('do not steal', etc.). If justification does not change a person into a new creation who then acts according to that new nature, they either did not receive the new nature he thinks he did, or is carelessly treating the free gift with contempt.

The problem with this view is that justification is a legal declaration, not a mode of action or causation.

Rom 5:16 - The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. NASB

The word for "justification" is:
dikaiōsis
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

Justification by God does not cause anything. If it did, we would all just be puppets.

We were given the new nature through our faith in Christ's forgiveness, so we can then do righteous things--those righteous things confirming the faith that produced them in us.

God gave us His Holy Spirit for the power to do righteous things. But we must be filled (Eph 5:18) and walk by means of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16), and NOT grieve (Eph 4:30) or quench (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit.

If you can't confirm that you have faith in Christ through what you do, it's time to examine your faith, and/or your attitude toward the grace of God.

This is true, but doesn't prove anything, such as that one doesn't believe. Believers continue to sin. That certainly doesn't confirm one's faith in Christ. Believers can be hypocrites, which doesn't confirm one's faith in Christ.

Please note, I'm not in the least defending sinful believers. But let's be honest about what Scripture talks about.

I like what Paul told the Ephesian believers:
Eph 4:17 - So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind,

The phrase "no longer" clearly indicates something that they were still doing. We find the exact same phrase in Acts 4:17 - “But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.”

Clearly the disciples WERE speaking to others in Jesus' name. And the Jewish leaders warned to stop doing it.

That is what Paul was saying in Eph 4:17; stop living (sinning) like the Gentiles.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The word for "justification" is:
dikaiōsis
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

Justification by God does not cause anything.

You are so very, very wrong:

47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

11 For the grace of God has appeared,bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age..." (Titus 2:11-12 NASB)

Just look at your own life and see how it is God's grace in the forgiveness of sin that has caused you to say 'no' to ungodliness.

If it did, we would all just be puppets.

Wait, you believe in predestination, as in God picking and choosing ahead of time who will be saved and who will not, right?


Off to do more brain surgeries... (Rollo Tamasi is getting his frontal lobotomy today).

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
The word for "justification" is:
dikaiōsis
1) the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2) abjuring to be righteous, justification

Justification by God does not cause anything.

And you responded with this:

You are so very, very wrong:

47 "For this reason I say to you, her sins, which are many, have been forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little."

11 For the grace of God has appeared,bringing salvation to all men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age..." (Titus 2:11-12 NASB)

How can I be wrong when I provide the meaning of the Greek word, which refutes your view?

Further, neither of these verses supports your claim.

Just look at your own life and see how it is God's grace in the forgiveness of sin that has caused you to say 'no' to ungodliness.

It is definitely by God's grace that I don't say yes to ungodliness. But that isn't causative in the least. What IS causative is when I am filled with the Holy Spirit, walking by Him, and NOT grieving or quenching Him that I don't sin. The power comes from the Holy Spirit, but the believer must allow Him to.

Aren't you familiar with Paul's current struggle against sin in Rom 7?

Wait, you believe in predestination, as in God picking and choosing ahead of time who will be saved and who will not, right?

Thanks for the opportunity to clarify my position. Predestination is only for those who have believed. And believers are predestined to become Christ-like.

Calvinists mistakenly believe that predestination is God choosing who will believe, which is not found in Scripture.

But, what does predestination have to do with the present discussion?

Off to do more brain surgeries... (Rollo Tamasi is getting his frontal lobotomy today).

Just don't slip.

 

[chozen1956]

I go to a church that believes in resting in God's grace more than any other church I have been a part of in my entire life, and it is also the church that is always doing so much more than those other churches, it would make your head spin. Seems like, in Christ, the less you work at Christianity, the more you do God's will.

Mostly I agree with you. I say mostly because God's works are already prepared for us to do in advance. So we have nothing to do with that. But yes, resting in Christ is everything. God works. We rest. Amen brother.

 

[chozen1956]

Today I was hearing by a preacher - salvation is a gift, you dont have to do any thing. Even if you dont read the bible or pray or attend a fellowship still you can make it to heaven. Once you accept Jesus then salvation part is finished and all things done after that are rewards. Even he translates that working out salvation with fear and trembling is nothing but just believing in Christ. Now lets assume that everything he says is true but a question remains in my heart.

Why would early believers have to endure so much persecution? They should have secretly believed
Christ and Escape persecution.

Or is that the early believers didnt understand that their salvation is only by grace?

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son, that whoever believes on him, shall not die, but have everlasting life.
In this world you will have many troubles, but take heart, for I have overcome the world. ---Jesus Christ.
The world hates you because it hated me first. ---Jesus Christ.

It's our lot in life to be persecuted in whatever manner or form that may take. There are thousands of Christians right now, being killed, tortured, maimed, harrassed, imprisoned...ISIS is beheading Christian children today.

Brother, this has nothing to do with God's grace. It is the natural effect of serving the One True God. But God's grace will keep you throughout any trial or suffering. And in the end, eternal life is yours. So rejoice and be glad.

 

[Malachi]

Now for this the preacher replies with this one John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Do you have any reply for this?

Those two Scriptures are pointing to two different aspects of salvation.

The words of Christ in John 6:29 are to establish the truth that no one can be saved by good works, since all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. It is enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. This is the "work" that God requires.

At the same time, what we find in Philippians 2:12 is the outworking of our salvation. We have been saved in order to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) but first of all we are saved by grace through faith, and salvation -- eternal life -- is indeed a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8,9).

The majority of the human race (as well as Christendom) believes that human beings can be saved by their own good works. It is only the pure Gospel of God that declares that "By the deeds [works] of the Law there shall no flesh [man] be justified in His sight; for by the Law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20).

 

[chozen1956]

Those two Scriptures are pointing to two different aspects of salvation.

The words of Christ in John 6:29 are to establish the truth that no one can be saved by good works, since all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags. It is enough to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and His finished work of redemption. This is the "work" that God requires.

At the same time, what we find in Philippians 2:12 is the outworking of our salvation. We have been saved in order to do good works (Ephesians 2:10) but first of all we are saved by grace through faith, and salvation -- eternal life -- is indeed a gift of God (Ephesians 2:8,9).

The majority of the human race (as well as Christendom) believes that human beings can be saved by their own good works. It is only the pure Gospel of God that declares that "By the deeds [works] of the Law there shall no flesh [man] be justified in His sight; for by the Law is the knowledge of sin" (Romans 3:20).

Welllll....we have been saved because it was Gods plan to reconcile men to himself. The good works are Gods to accomplish through us. The old covenant focused on works and obedience through those works. The new focuses on faith and believing on Gods Son. To work out our salvation is not possible. So there is either another interpretation to that or the author was mistaken and reverted to law in that moment. Or, he was talking to the weeds in the church.

 

[Malachi]

To work out our salvation is not possible.

God does not ask us to do that which is not possible. Philippians 2:12 cannot be separated from Philippians 2:13. First God commands us to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and then He tells us "for it is GOD WHICH WORKETH IN you both to will and to do of His good pleasure".

It is by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit that Christians do good works. But the effort must be made by each individual since we are not robots. God enables us to make the effort but we must still make that effort. Consider the labours of the apostle Paul.

 

[Ricko]

We work because we are saved, not so that we will be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Justification by God does not cause anything. If it did, we would all just be puppets.

No, that's not true at all. Some people are thankful and appreciative for the forgiveness they have received. The woman sobbing on Jesus' feet being a very good example for us. Jesus said she loved because her many sins had been forgiven. That's a causative effect that she let rule in her body. The unmerciful servant is an example of someone who did NOT appreciate the forgiveness he had received. His indifference for the free gift being seen in what he did, just as the woman's gratefulness for the free gift was seen in what she did.

This is true, but doesn't prove anything, such as that one doesn't believe. Believers continue to sin. That certainly doesn't confirm one's faith in Christ. Believers can be hypocrites, which doesn't confirm one's faith in Christ.

Genuine 'agape' love, ultimately, can not be faked. The problem is so many do not know what 'agape' love is to even know it can't be faked. I've known people, for example, who had feelings for the poor, even helping them sometimes, but who hated their spouse with a murderous hatred. There are some things that show if you really have agape love at work inside of you, or not, and which can not be faked through.

Please note, I'm not in the least defending sinful believers. But let's be honest about what Scripture talks about.

Yes, let's be honest. The scriptures tell us to confirm our calling and election by doing righteous things. The person who can't do that can not expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Grace was not given to us to excuse our disobedience. Grace was given to us to now be obedient where we could not be before.

 

[veryberry]

Then you agree that walking according to the flesh means sinning?

There's no such thing as pleasing God in the flesh--that is, obeying him by the power of one's will alone, therefore, being in the flesh always means sinning. It does not, and can not mean being obedient by one's own power--that's an impossibility.

I don't necessarily agree with that. If a believer is in sin, then yes that believer is in the flesh. But, a believer can be doing good deeds from the flesh. Those good deeds are not pleasing to God, simply because, those deeds are from the flesh. If a believer is trying to use the power of their flesh to please God, They are in the flesh.

Amen to "There's no such thing as pleasing God in the flesh."

 

[veryberry]

Yes, let's be honest. The scriptures tell us to confirm our calling and election by doing righteous things. The person who can't do that can not expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath. Grace was not given to us to excuse our disobedience. Grace was given to us to now be obedient where we could not be before.

You keep saying "saved on the day of wrath" We are saved from the day of wrath. There is a big difference. Not one justified person will ever step foot in the day of wrath.

Roms 5:9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...a believer can be doing good deeds from the flesh. Those good deeds are not pleasing to God, simply because, those deeds are from the flesh. If a believer is trying to use the power of their flesh to please God, They are in the flesh.

If I 'do not steal' without need of the power of God, that is not the definition of the works gospel Paul warns us about. And it surely is not sinning. This is the popular distortion of Paul's grace/works doctrine that I firmly resist. He plainly said what constitutes damnable works, and it is not what many claim it is. .

Amen to "There's no such thing as pleasing God in the flesh."

I think you missed the point.

Ultimately, no one will succeed at pleasing God without the Spirit of God. That hardly means you will never ever do right without aid of the Spirit. Or that you need the aid of the Spirit to do right. And you surely are not guilty of sin if you do right, but without aid of the Spirit.

For example, I do not struggle with alcohol in the least. I don't need to fast and pray and seek the Spirit to resist excessive alcohol consumption. I hate the stuff. I'm not even tempted by it. That does not mean I'm sinning because I'm doing right in my own power without the Spirit. And it hardly means I'm trying to be justified by purposely not drinking alcohol and doing that without aid of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You keep saying "saved on the day of wrath" We are saved from the day of wrath. There is a big difference. Not one justified person will ever step foot in the day of wrath.

Roms 5:9 - Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Matthew 25 says otherwise, but I know your 'two gospel' doctrine is how you make that inapplicable to the church.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
Justification by God does not cause anything. If it did, we would all just be puppets.

No, that's not true at all. Some people are thankful and appreciative for the forgiveness they have received.

You missed the point. Justification does not cause appreciation. Clear example is Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8. The Bible says clearly that he believed and was baptized, so there is no reason to dismiss what the Bible says. But he was still full of bitterness, etc. His response indicates that he took to heart what Peter said to him.

The woman sobbing on Jesus' feet being a very good example for us. Jesus said she loved because her many sins had been forgiven. That's a causative effect that she let rule in her body.

Since she "let rule in her body" proves that it wasn't causative. To "let rule" means a choice that she made. Her justification did not cause her response, just as Simon's response wasn't caused by his justification.

The unmerciful servant is an example of someone who did NOT appreciate the forgiveness he had received. His indifference for the free gift being seen in what he did, just as the woman's gratefulness for the free gift was seen in what she did.

Thanks for making my point.

Yes, let's be honest. The scriptures tell us to confirm our calling and election by doing righteous things. The person who can't do that can not expect to be saved on the Day of Wrath.

Confirming doesn't mean to keep oneself saved, as your view clearly suggests. It means to prove it by deeds. Which is exactly what James wrote about in James 2:14-26.

Grace was not given to us to excuse our disobedience. Grace was given to us to now be obedient where we could not be before.

OK. But what does that have to do with your view of loss of salvation?

And you've never provided an explanation of the fact that at the moment of belief in Christ, God regenerates the believer, gives him eternal life, and the Holy Spirit indwells that person. And none of these things are said to be risk of being lost in any sense of the word.

God cannot deny Himself per 2 Tim 2:13. And Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with us forever. There is no way your view can reconcile itself with these 2 verses.

Further, eternal life isn't an object, as you like to treat salvation, like a coin that can be lost. And eternal life cannot die, so therefore, eternal life cannot end up in the LoF, which is called the second DEATH.

Here are 2 issues that your view cannot defend against with Scripture.

 

[veryberry]

If I 'do not steal' without need of the power of God, that is not the definition of the works gospel Paul warns us about. And it surely is not sinning. This is the popular distortion of Paul's grace/works doctrine that I firmly resist. He plainly said what constitutes damnable works, and it is not what many claim it is. .

Our definition of works and how they should come about, differ. Stealing is easy to restrain. Killing easy to restrain. Majority of the commandments are easy to keep, but one. Its this one commandment, that automatically cause you to fail many of the other commandments. It doesn't matter your will, your intentions, but when you are trying to live according to the law, or examine yourself according to the law, you will experience the self condemnation that Paul experienced. "Oh wretched man that I am", and your functional christian life(the way we are to live) is dead. This one commandment, cannot be restrained by the power of the flesh. It can only be restrained by the provisions that God has made you. Dead to sin and alive unto God. This is the first step to walking in newness of life. We walk by faith, not by sight. If a believer cannot get over the first block in his/her sanctified life, the rest doesn't matter. Because now it is thought that believers are under the law to some degree. Now believers are subject to church laws, self made laws. If a believer does not reckon him/herself to be dead indeed unto sin, then that b

Matthew 25 says otherwise, but I know your 'two gospel' doctrine is how you make that inapplicable to the church.

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman needeth not be ashamed, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the THE WORD OF TRUTH. God has made divisions. There are some that applies to us, there are some that does not and I believe he has shown us those divisions, and has specifically told us who we are to follow.

 

[veryberry]

If I 'do not steal' without need of the power of God, that is not the definition of the works gospel Paul warns us about. And it surely is not sinning. This is the popular distortion of Paul's grace/works doctrine that I firmly resist. He plainly said what constitutes damnable works, and it is not what many claim it is. .



I think you missed the point.

Ultimately, no one will succeed at pleasing God without the Spirit of God. That hardly means you will never ever do right without aid of the Spirit. Or that you need the aid of the Spirit to do right. And you surely are not guilty of sin if you do right, but without aid of the Spirit.

For example, I do not struggle with alcohol in the least. I don't need to fast and pray and seek the Spirit to resist excessive alcohol consumption. I hate the stuff. I'm not even tempted by it. That does not mean I'm sinning because I'm doing right in my own power without the Spirit. And it hardly means I'm trying to be justified by purposely not drinking alcohol and doing that without aid of the Holy Spirit.

Your idea of works and my idea of works and how we should now operate differ. The Spirit of God does not help you to not sin. The Spirit of God in no way effects our free will thinking. The Spirit of God leads us through the sense and sequence of Gods word. God does not treat us as children under tutors and governors, but as adult adopted sons and daughters that are about our Fathers business.

You are justified, by grace and not of works and
You are sanctified, by grace and not of works.

The holy Spirit baptized us into Jesus Christ making us dead to sin and alive unto God. This is our sanctification. This is who we are. The just shall live by faith, not by sight. We examine whether we be in the faith or not. If we are living under a law or a list of do's and don'ts, then we are not in the faith. We are saved, but we are not living out are justified/sanctified lives the way God has made us. The Spirit leads us through Gods word and teaches us to walk in newness of life not under the law, but under grace.

 

[veryberry]

Matthew 25 says otherwise, but I know your 'two gospel' doctrine is how you make that inapplicable to the church.

Would you not agree, that their is more then one gospel?
gospel of the Kingdom
gospel of God
gospel of Christ
the everlasting gospel..etc..

I mean the gospel of God and the gospel of Christ are both mentioned in Romans 1

Rom 1:1 - Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

2 different gospels within 16 verses of first chapter.

Plus, we are never promised the Kingdom, that is for Israel. Israel will rule and rain on earth. We on the other hand are seated in Heavenly places. Israel will reconcile the earth with God(Prophecy), We will reconcile the Heavenly places with God(Mystery).

2 programs, a prophetic program which was made know since the world began, and a mystery program which was kept secret since the world began.

 

[Malachi]

Would you not agree, that their is more then one gospel?
gospel of the Kingdom
gospel of God
gospel of Christ
the everlasting gospel..etc

There is only ONE GOSPEL, although the various terms used above are there in Scripture to present various aspects of this one Gospel. Please review 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. When Jesus of Nazareth was on this earth as Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) He came as the King of Israel and preached the Gospel to Israel as "the Gospel of the Kingdom". After He was rejected, and after the Gospel was rejected by the Jews following His resurrection and ascension, it was presented as the "Gospel of Christ" (Romans 15:19) to the Gentiles. It is ultimately the "Gospel of God" because it originated within the triune Godhead even before this universe was created (1 Peter 1:18-20). God planned to give the gift of His Son to all mankind, but only those who genuinely repent and believe the Gospel are saved.

There is also just ONE PROPHETIC PLAN which includes the Church in Heaven and redeemed and restored Israel upon this earth, along with the nations which are saved. This earth will be a new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness". The Church -- all believers who are in the Body of Christ -- will live and reign with Christ (Revelation 1:6) and its home is the New Jerusalem.

There are many who do not believe that all of God's promises to redeemed Israel will be fulfilled. However Scripture is very clear that the Lord Jesus Christ will establish His Kingship over Israel and His Kingdom upon this earth. At the same time the Church is a part of His kingdom in that believers are to be "kings and priests" forever.

 

[veryberry]

There is only ONE GOSPEL, although the various terms used above are there in Scripture to present various aspects of this one Gospel. Please review 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. When Jesus of Nazareth was on this earth as Yeshua ha Mashiach (Jesus the Messiah) He came as the King of Israel and preached the Gospel to Israel as "the Gospel of the Kingdom". After He was rejected, and after the Gospel was rejected by the Jews following His resurrection and ascension, it was presented as the "Gospel of Christ" (Romans 15:19) to the Gentiles. It is ultimately the "Gospel of God" because it originated within the triune Godhead even before this universe was created (1 Peter 1:18-20). God planned to give the gift of His Son to all mankind, but only those who genuinely repent and believe the Gospel are saved.

There is also just ONE PROPHETIC PLAN which includes the Church in Heaven and redeemed and restored Israel upon this earth, along with the nations which are saved. This earth will be a new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness". The Church -- all believers who are in the Body of Christ -- will live and reign with Christ (Revelation 1:6) and its home is the New Jerusalem.

There are many who do not believe that all of God's promises to redeemed Israel will be fulfilled. However Scripture is very clear that the Lord Jesus Christ will establish His Kingship over Israel and His Kingdom upon this earth. At the same time the Church is a part of His kingdom in that believers are to be "kings and priests" forever.

Could you please tell me what Paul is referring to in the following passage?

Rom 16:25 - Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

and this one.

1 Cor 2: 7-8 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the lord of glory.

oh, and this one...

Gal 2:7 0 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

In this last one, it definitely seems that there are 2 gospels.

Gal 1:6 - I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

You wanna know what I think this "other gospel" at this particular time is? The gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven. For obvious reasons, this gospel is still being preached today as to pertaining to us, but there are other perversions as well.