Did Jesus go to hell between his death and resurrection?

[Butch5]

Okay, then i misunderstood your post's point about The Book.
I can see a lineage (or a family) in this text (both in Heaven and Earth). A lineage in Heaven AND a lineage on Earth. That one phrase, could go either way, I suppose. (Now that you clarified it's not speaking about a book). I'm not sure why you even mentioned a book in the first place. I guess to help explain what Paul could be meaning by something being in Heaven.

Hi Chessman,

I’m glad you see that. One of the points I’ve been trying to make is that sometimes passages can be read in more than one way. I think we tend to see a passage in one way unless we specifically look to see if it is possible to understand it differently. I think this is what causes much of the confusion and debate.

I'm glad you can see the problem with a book being his meaning. Whatever he meant (families, lineage, fathers), has to be both in Heaven and Earth.

Yeah. I can see that.

But moving on:

16 that he may grant you according to the riches of his glory to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inner person,

Given a 50/50 chance that he means 1) spirits/souls/inner beings of the saints being in Heaven or 2) nothing of a dead saint being in heaven, do you think he means the "you" in verse 16 to reference only the living saved? Or could he mean his prayer for strength to be not just for those on Earth but also perhaps those in Heaven?

I mean, if we come at this text with an open mind, it reads to me as if He's actually praying for both the living and the dead's strengthening. The living being on Earth(of course) but the dead saints being in Heaven (that is if he didn't mean their lineage written in a book).

I can see where you could read that. Me personally, it didn’t come across to me that way because he said the whole family is named, then he said may God grant you. To me that places Paul’s readers as the one’s he’s seeking strengthening for.

Let me say too that I think when Paul says inner man he could simply be talking about who we are now while we’re alive.

His point: 4 so that you may be able when you read to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ5 (which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men as it has now been revealed to his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit).
I mean, he's talking bout some pretty deep stuff here. He has zero problem with the fact that their ideas might need an update.

By the way, what's up with the Spirit revealing mystery to apostles (some of which were dead when he wrote this) and prophets (all dead and in the grave when he wrote this). How does insight get revealed to dead prophets if they are simply dead?

I just think he means living apostles and prophets. He talks about people having the gift of Prophecy.

 

[Butch5]

I guess I will have to bail on this one. I do not believe in disembodied consciousness so in a lot of aspects you are arguing from a premise I do not even believe in. If it was disembodied how could we even recognize who was in the vision or even have an identity at all.

I'm sorry gr8grace,

I know you and Chopper don't hold that position. It's difficult arguing the two different points. I am curious though as to what brought you to that position. Was it those passages you posted?

 

[chessman]

Hi Chessman,

I’m glad you see that. One of the points I’ve been trying to make is that sometimes passages can be read in more than one way. I think we tend to see a passage in one way unless we specifically look to see if it is possible to understand it differently. [1]

I just think he means living apostles and prophets. He talks about people having the gift of Prophecy. [2]

[1] i agree. I appreciate your insight and alternate perspective.

[2]. I disagree.

V18 in order that you may be strong enough to grasp together with all the saints what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth, ...

I think he means all the saints, to include all the dead holy apostles and dead prophets, not just the ones living.

 

[Butch5]

[1] i agree. I appreciate your insight and alternate perspective.

[2]. I disagree.

V18 in order that you may be strong enough to grasp together with all the saints what is the breadth, and length, and height, and depth, ...

I think he means all the saints, to include all the dead holy apostles and dead prophets, not just the ones living.

OK, let me ask you a question, why do you think that?

 

[gr8grace3]

I'm sorry gr8grace,

I know you and Chopper don't hold that position. It's difficult arguing the two different points. I am curious though as to what brought you to that position. Was it those passages you posted?

To be honest with you the position I take comes from my salvation day. I was dead and made alive when I believed in Christ. Even without studying nobody could take that away from me, I am not going to lay in some grave for who knows how long away from the Savior who gave me life in the first place.

The interim body explains it for me, and I explained it briefly in one of my first posts.

Your theory takes Joy away from me personally. So for me personally, I know your wrong.

Its common sense also. what is better and sounds more reasonable when it comes to the nature and character of our Lord:

1.When you die you will immediately be face to face with the Lord.

2. When you die you will rot in the grave being non-existent.

It is not a matter of what I believe. It is a matter of the character and nature of our Lord. And your belief attacks who He is.

And it is no wonder that annihilation gets brought up in this also. Its an attack on the character and nature of our Lord.

 

[chessman]

OK, let me ask you a question, why do you think that?

1. Because he mentions the fathers/families/lineages in heaven AND on Earth. Why even bring the 'lineage' in heaven into his point, otherwise?

2. Because he says even past generations need this insight and they have been given it "now".

3. Because he says His Spirit speaks to our inner being (as if there is an inner and outer being).

4. Because:
Now to the one who is able to do beyond all measure more than all that we ask or think, according to the power that is at work in us,21 to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations

He is talking about all generations (even dead ones).

5. Because:
[This] many-sided wisdom of God might be made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Because this insight/wisdom was made known, not just to his living readers, but also those (familes/lineages/generations) in the heavenly places as well.

 

[Butch5]

To be honest with you the position I take comes from my salvation day. I was dead and made alive when I believed in Christ. Even without studying nobody could take that away from me, I am not going to lay in some grave for who knows how long away from the Savior who gave me life in the first place.

The interim body explains it for me, and I explained it briefly in one of my first posts.

Your theory takes Joy away from me personally. So for me personally, I know your wrong.

Its common sense also. what is better and sounds more reasonable when it comes to the nature and character of our Lord:

1.When you die you will immediately be face to face with the Lord.

2. When you die you will rot in the grave being non-existent.

It is not a matter of what I believe. It is a matter of the character and nature of our Lord. And your belief attacks who He is.

And it is no wonder that annihilation gets brought up in this also. Its an attack on the character and nature of our Lord.

I don't see how it's an attack on the Lord. Man sinned and God said if you sin you'll die.

 

[Butch5]

1. Because he mentions the fathers/families/lineages in heaven AND on Earth. Why even bring the 'lineage' in heaven into his point, otherwise?

2. Because he says even past generations need this insight and they have been given it "now".

3. Because he says His Spirit speaks to our inner being (as if there is an inner and outer being).

4. Because:
Now to the one who is able to do beyond all measure more than all that we ask or think, according to the power that is at work in us,21 to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations

He is talking about all generations (even dead ones).

5. Because:
[This] many-sided wisdom of God might be made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Because this insight/wisdom was made known, not just to his living readers, but also those (familes/lineages/generations) in the heavenly places as well.

OK, but doesn't all of this presuppose that there is something in a man that can live on when he dies? If yes, do you agree that we need to find out where Scripture teaches this?

 

[Butch5]

Something to consider, If at death only the body dies and the man actually lives on, this same thing would have happened to Christ because He is the example. If that is the case then He didn't die, if He didn't die then there is no salvation. The Scriptures don't teach that Christ gave His body for sins they say He died for sins.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. (Isa 53:10 KJV)

The Scriptures say that it was His soul that was an offering for sin not His body. So, if man doesn't die then Christ didn't either.

 

[gr8grace3]

I'm with ya on the spiritual death. That is why believers won't experience spiritual death. I believe you made our case with that last post.

Christ Spiritually died in our place.And He was raised again.

 

[Butch5]

1. Because he mentions the fathers/families/lineages in heaven AND on Earth. Why even bring the 'lineage' in heaven into his point, otherwise?

Because he's talking about all Christians being named by God.

2. Because he says even past generations need this insight and they have been given it "now".

Why would dead Jewish prophets need the revelation that the Gentiles are to be included in the Gospel?

3. Because he says His Spirit speaks to our inner being (as if there is an inner and outer being).

But, as I pointed out it can be understood differently.

4. Because:
Now to the one who is able to do beyond all measure more than all that we ask or think, according to the power that is at work in us,21 to him be the glory in the church and in Christ Jesus to all generations

He is talking about all generations (even dead ones).

He said, to all generations. Have you considered that this is addressing time? Look as some other translations.

KJV Ephesians 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
CJB Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the Messianic Community and in the Messiah Yeshua from generation to generation forever. Amen. (Eph 3:21 CJB)
MIT Ephesians 3:21 to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus in every successive epoch of the ages. Amen. (Eph 3:21 MIT)
YLT Ephesians 3:21 to Him is the glory in the assembly in Christ Jesus, to all the generations of the age of the ages. Amen. (Eph 3:21 YLT)

5. Because:
[This] many-sided wisdom of God might be made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places.

Could be angelic beings

Because this insight/wisdom was made known, not just to his living readers, but also those (familes/lineages/generations) in the heavenly places as well.

That's what we need to find out.

 

[Butch5]

I'm with ya on the spiritual death. That is why believers won't experience spiritual death. I believe you made our case with that last post.

Christ Spiritually died in our place.And He was raised again.

I don't believe in spiritual death.

 

[gr8grace3]

Ok Butch, if Christ is our example then we spend 3 days in the grave? Then we are raised?

 

[Butch5]

Ok Butch, if Christ is our example then we spend 3 days in the grave? Then we are raised?

He the example of death and the resurrection. Paul said everyone will be raise at their time.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (1Co 15:21-24 NKJ)

 

[gr8grace3]

He the example of death and the resurrection. Paul said everyone will be raise at their time.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (1Co 15:21-24 NKJ)

So it must be in three days after death. I guess I could live with that if you are correct. Everyone dies at different times, so it must be 3 days after death? Never looked at it like that before. I still disagree though.

 

[JLB]

He the example of death and the resurrection. Paul said everyone will be raise at their time.

21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead.22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. (1Co 15:21-24 NKJ)

Paul teaches us everyone other than Christ, will be raised together at the same time... At His Coming.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

Until then, when a Christian dies they will be with Christ in heaven, waiting to return with Him at the end of the age when he comes to gather His people at the r4esurrection.

We who are alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM, to meet the lord in the air.

Here is the key phrase that teaches we are with Christ in heaven when we die -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Those who are in heaven and are awaiting the resurrection, God will bring with Jesus when he returns to gather His people.

as it is written -

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

From the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The saints will come with Jesus from heaven when he returns...



JLB

 

[chessman]

OK, but doesn't all of this presuppose that there is something in a man that can live on when he dies?

No. Some of it, yes. But not all. For example. If I put on your shoes and read that past generations now have this new insight of Paul's via them getting it from the Holy Spirit, I'm afraid I'd have to take your shoes off.

I can see how your shoes fit my point 1, yes.

But not 2-5. Honestly.

If yes, do you agree that we need to find out where Scripture teaches this?

Again, I think your view cannot reconcile Paul's teaching right here in Eph 3. Obviously Paul doesn't come right out and say (dead people's souls are alive). but To me it's clear that Paul is saying the next best thing. that even dead/past generations (all the apostles and prophets and generations of God's people) NOW have this modern insight of his (gentiles are included as God's people). I have no idea how these dead people could have gained this new insight. were they not in some way capable of gaining this insight post death.

As you said, you think he meant only living apostles. But some were dead by then and I don't see them getting left out of this insight of Paul's.

it was; made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places

together with all the saints

(Not some living, but all)

 

[Butch5]

So it must be in three days after death. I guess I could live with that if you are correct. Everyone dies at different times, so it must be 3 days after death? Never looked at it like that before. I still disagree though.

It'll probably be a few more.

 

[Butch5]

No. Some of it, yes. But not all. For example. If I put on your shoes and read that past generations now have this new insight of Paul's via them getting it from the Holy Spirit, I'm afraid I'd have to take your shoes off.

I can see how your shoes fit my point 1, yes.

But not 2-5. Honestly.



Again, I think your view cannot reconcile Paul's teaching right here in Eph 3. Obviously Paul doesn't come right out and say (dead people's souls are alive). but To me it's clear that Paul is saying the next best thing. that even dead/past generations (all the apostles and prophets and generations of God's people) NOW have this modern insight of his (gentiles are included as God's people). I have no idea how these dead people could have gained this new insight. were they not in some way capable of gaining this insight post death.

As you said, you think he meant only living apostles. But some were dead by then and I don't see them getting left out of this insight of Paul's.

it was; made known now to the rulers and the authorities in the heavenly places
together with all the saints

(Not some living, but all)

Hi Chessman,

The thing is you're approaching the text with the supposition that a man can exist in some form while he is dead. If I said I'm giving everyone $10 would you assume that I'm going to start digging up graves to give $10 to dead people? Probably not, why? Because you're coming to my statement that dead bodies decay and cannot use the money. My point is, it's all about how we approach the text. Even if my interpretation doesn't make sense, you still need to show from the Scriptures that existence of this disembodied consciousness. Without that everything is an assumption. As you said, Paul doesn't come right out an say it, so , that means you must infer it from the statement. Since it's an inference, that inference could be wrong.

Before we can say that Paul is speaking of a disembodied consciousness we have to prove the existence of this disembodied consciousness. That is the crux of the issue. Scripture actually teach the opposite of a disembodied consciousness.

 

[Butch5]

Paul teaches us everyone other than Christ, will be raised together at the same time... At His Coming.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

Until then, when a Christian dies they will be with Christ in heaven, waiting to return with Him at the end of the age when he comes to gather His people at the r4esurrection.

We who are alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM, to meet the lord in the air.

Here is the key phrase that teaches we are with Christ in heaven when we die -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Those who are in heaven and are awaiting the resurrection, God will bring with Jesus when he returns to gather His people.

as it is written -

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

From the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The saints will come with Jesus from heaven when he returns...



JLB

Paul teaches us everyone other than Christ, will be raised together at the same time... At His Coming.

23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. 1 Corinthians 15:23

Until then, when a Christian dies they will be with Christ in heaven, waiting to return with Him at the end of the age when he comes to gather His people at the r4esurrection.

We who are alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM, to meet the lord in the air.

Here is the key phrase that teaches we are with Christ in heaven when we die -

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

Those who are in heaven and are awaiting the resurrection, God will bring with Jesus when he returns to gather His people.

as it is written -

26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:26-27

From the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The saints will come with Jesus from heaven when he returns...



JLB

What you've posted here is the opposite of your claim. Jesus isn't bringing the dead to earth, He's bringing the resurrected to God.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(1Th 4:14-17 KJV)

The passage says that God will bring them with Jesus. Jesus is going back to raise the dead and God is going to bring them back with Jesus. Verses 15-17 explain verse 14.

Here are few other translations that may be a little clearer.

CJB 1 Thessalonians 4:14 do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died. (1Th 4:14 CJB)

MIT 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe Jesus died and rose, in the same manner God through Jesus will bring those sleeping (in death) with him (1Th 4:14 MIT)

NET 1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also we believe that God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep as Christians. (1Th 4:14 NET)

YLT 1 Thessalonians 4:14 for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him, (1Th 4:14 YLT)