Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[John the Baptist]

John here: Here is an old post from some time ago on this subject, see if it is of any interest?

********
bg2m wrote:
John,
I think we've strayed far from the original topic which is "soul sleep".
Since you consider yourself an old timer what is your understanding of the topic? I'll put it in several questions so you can address them one by one.

1)Since we have not reached the event in 1 Thess. 4:15-17, where are all the souls of the dead now?

*******
John here: (altered by me)
It takes the breath of life to make one a living soul. Adam was dead & sleeping before God breathed the breath of life into him. Then he became a living soul. [All] who die are promised a resurrection, just not at the same time. All who die are dead as was Adam before & after the breath leaves him. They all sleep until two resurrections. First the saints who will not die the second death, and then the lost who are also promised a resurrection that will die the second death. See Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:20. Other wise satan's first lie would be truth.
*******

2)What is the difference between the time as we know it now (the ever moving time) and "eternity"?

*******
Me again:
The God/Head [only] has immortality. Their time is ETERNITY. (NO BEGINNING or end. Same as their Eternal Gospel & Eternal Covenant.
And US?? We have a beginning that can become eternally gone or eternally saved as in Obad. 16 for the lost, and as seen in John 3:16 for the saved. Yet, we are ALWAYS with a starting conditional promise point of John 3:3's requirement, & an eternity from that point on. A [conditional] immortality.

The tree of life was removed from Adam & Eve God said, otherwise they could have eaten and become immortal sinners. That is why one needs the Everlasting Gospel & Everlasting Covenant to complete its knowledge of soul sleep. From Gen. to Rev. We see in the last book & page of the Whole of the Gospel that once again the resurrected d-e-a-d saved soul will eat of the tree of life! This eternal life has a starting point. They NOW again have the God given immortality of conditional immortal life. See Nah. 1:9.
*******

3)In Rev. 20:13 it says that "Then the sea gave up its dead. Death and the world of the dead also gave up the dead they held....." This seems to imply that the sea and the world of the dead are two different locations. What is going on in those places now?

*******
Me again:
I don't mean to sound harsh, but let me say this in street talk? ALL die. (yes, there will be an exception) But these are DEAD. It matters not where we are at while dead. Cut up, shot, lions dens, war crimes, on the moon, (surely there have been some lost in space from other nations??) or in the oceans, or whatever, we are DEAD! (and yes, it does matter to some of our loved ones )

But, Rev. finds [some] standing in the Judgement by BOOKS only. Unless we believe D-E-A-D people are standing??? The ones in the First Resurrection are seen in the Words of Christ, saying.. "I WILL BRING MY REWARD WITH ME". All the rest that come forth from death will be judged by the saints (in part) during the 1000 years of earth's desolation. These will die the second death of Obad. 16. (See 1 Cor. 6:2-3 & Rev. 20:12 & Eccl. 12:13-14)
********

Hoping for a clear explanation from you.

_________________
"I CAN DO ALL THINGS THROUGH OUT CHRIST WHICH STRENGTHENETH ME" Phil. 4:13

"MY GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR THEE, FOR MY STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS" 2 Cor. 12:9

 

[SputnikBoy]

Hi everyone,

I would like to put in my two cent's worth,

Do we agree that God is Love?

I do, and becasue He is love I dont believe He would put anyone who He created and loved in a forever burning pit.

I agree with the SDA's interpretation of hell. They make sense with the loving God of the Bible.

thanks

Yes, but as you know, gingercat, their interpretation is arrived at by having correctly analyzed the scriptures. In other words, SDAs believe what the Bible says about hell. They didn't invent the doctrine themselves. Some Christians believe that SDAs make up their own doctrines for no other reason than to make them up. :wink:

 

[SputnikBoy]

So we are to believe that spiritual death is the same as death of the flesh?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:9 Who3748 shall be punished5099, 1349 with everlasting166 destruction3639 from575 the presence4383 of the3588 Lord,2962 and2532 from575 the3588 glory1391 of his846 power;2479

Prolonged form.
Prolonged for how long? Everlasting.

We have a hard time trying to understand how something can be destroyed at length since in our physical world even something on fire is consumed sooner or later, all fuel is spent. We seem to equal spiritual fire with the fire we know, hot gases released due to rapid oxidation. Is this then to say there must be oxygen in heaven?
Same with smoke.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Everlasting destruction. It's a hard concept yes, but anything spiritual is tough to understand locked in the world we find ourselves. After all, how can smoke rise forever and ever without the fuel producing the smoke being entirely consumed sooner or later? Yet, the smoke does rise for eternity. It seems the fire and smoke in the spiritual world is not like the fire and smoke we know. How can it be? It's not physical. Yet, it exists. Forever and ever.

Okay, you've allowed for the possibility of 'the smoke rising forever and ever' being of a 'spiritual' nature. Can you therefore go the extra yard and allow the possibility of this entire concept of hell being 'metaphorical' in nature?

********
How about Jude 1:7 then??

Same thing. It's speaking metaphorically. The scriptures do this all the time.

 

[John the Baptist]

So we are to believe that spiritual death is the same as death of the flesh?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:9 Who3748 shall be punished5099, 1349 with everlasting166 destruction3639 from575 the presence4383 of the3588 Lord,2962 and2532 from575 the3588 glory1391 of his846 power;2479

Prolonged form.
Prolonged for how long? Everlasting.

We have a hard time trying to understand how something can be destroyed at length since in our physical world even something on fire is consumed sooner or later, all fuel is spent. We seem to equal spiritual fire with the fire we know, hot gases released due to rapid oxidation. Is this then to say there must be oxygen in heaven?
Same with smoke.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Everlasting destruction. It's a hard concept yes, but anything spiritual is tough to understand locked in the world we find ourselves. After all, how can smoke rise forever and ever without the fuel producing the smoke being entirely consumed sooner or later? Yet, the smoke does rise for eternity. It seems the fire and smoke in the spiritual world is not like the fire and smoke we know. How can it be? It's not physical. Yet, it exists. Forever and ever.

Okay, you've allowed for the possibility of 'the smoke rising forever and ever' being of a 'spiritual' nature. Can you therefore go the extra yard and allow the possibility of this entire concept of hell being 'metaphorical' in nature?

********
How about Jude 1:7 then??

Same thing. It's speaking metaphorically. The scriptures do this all the time.

Well, how about you then?? :-D

 

[Rick W]

John,
Ok, I'll not get off on a tangent to chase after something else when my real intent is on Obadiah.
What is the purpose of God sending Obadiah to Edom? What is the intent of Obadiah in the first place? Do we not see Ezekiel, Jeremiah and others sent by God to warn Jerusalem and other nations of what God has to to tell them as the unity, the collective whole of a gathered people, a nation?
Sometimes it's best to get a bit familiar with a book, who is speaking and to whom, what is the intent of the book and why was the contained message necessary.
In many cases in the OT the prophet was sent to a nation or sent to the head thereof, a king perhaps. In this manner God spoke to the nation as a whole not preaching, teaching gospel on a more personal level such as Christ had done. Here, if it was Christ's intent to address a nation, a country as a whole, I'm quite sure he would have been sent straight to the heads of state as the previous prophets had been told to do. But instead Christ sent His disciples to carry the Word from God. The method of communication from God to the people was much different in the NT than the OT.
Can a nation be as it had never been yet have people from that nation wind up somewhere else? Sure, many conquered people were taken into captivity. That doesn't mean the people themselves ceased to exist. But the nation as an independent government is no more.
Obadiah's condemnation of Edom was just that, a condemnation of an independent government, the condemnation of a country whose morals had gone astray.

In short a group/nation/country can be broken up, to exist no longer, but the individuals within the group remain. The group's policies are gone as a cohesive entity, as if they had never been. And that is what God's warning was all about, the erradication of endorsed customs, an order, an organisation of people.

 

[mutzrein]

Hi everyone,

I would like to put in my two cent's worth,

Do we agree that God is Love?

I do, and becasue He is love I dont believe He would put anyone who He created and loved in a forever burning pit.

thanks

Not even if they knew what they were doing carried that punishment and they still disobeyed Him?

 

[Rick W]

Same with Adam. He knew. Yet he still took the apple.
The punishment? The first death. And that for all of mankind no matter who you are.
People don't want an "unjust" punishment such as an eternity in Hell yet are willing to accept the punishment of the first death without question.
Heed the warning. Those non-believers that ask why there's so much suffering in the world and get their answer refuse to accept that answer, refuse to repent and continue in their willful rebellion against God. His next judgment will carry even more weight than the first. Yet, there are those who don't see the first death as a first punishment willing to ignore the warnings in scripture of another more powerful consequence for their continuing sin likening the second unto the first.
God gave us an "out", the sacrifice of His Son, the ultimate show of love as Christ had done on the cross, but without acknowledging the first death for what it is people continue in their unbelieving ways saying no loving God would do such a thing as commit someone to an eternal Hell. God's first warning, the first death, is ignored by excuses of all kinds and yet people STILL refuse to repent.

 

[John the Baptist]

John,
Ok, I'll not get off on a tangent to chase after something else when my real intent is on Obadiah.
What is the purpose of God sending Obadiah to Edom? What is the intent of Obadiah in the first place?
........

In short a group/nation/country can be broken up, to exist no longer, but the individuals within the group remain. The group's policies are gone as a cohesive entity, as if they had never been. And that is what God's warning was all about, the erradication of endorsed customs, an order, an organisation of people.

********
John here with Obadiah:

Chapter 1

1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

2
Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.

3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?

4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD.

****
So far, can you find any scripture to see where a created 'being' or persons are compared here??? Revelation 12:4 or Ezekiel 28:13-18, even to 'ashes'?
****

5 If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some grapes?

6 How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!

7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; that they eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.

10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. (sure seems personal!)

11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them.

12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. (and you say that a city is here described & not the persons of the city? 'rejoiced', 'spoken proudly', 'over the children of Juda'????)

13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
(a city is made up of its people!)

14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head. (compare Ecclesiastes 12:13-14)

16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions.
(sure sounds like individualism to me!)


18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken it.
(does a house have people in it? And yes one needs to consider the Revelation 12:17's passages of 'each histories promised Remnant'!)

19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead.

20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south. (are the people or the cities of importance to God? Genesis 6:3 or Genesis 18:27-32)

21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

(So we see what judged here, 'a mount of Esau'? This is why Christ died, for real estate??? Like I say, we do not think alike! :wink: It would be interesting to see what you (we) would make out of Isaiah 28's whole chapter & even Peters 3 time Vision?? :fadein:

 

[Rick W]

1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the LORD, and an ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise up against her in battle.

2
Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art greatly despised.
Edom

3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, Edom thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; Edom that saith in his heart, Edom Who shall bring me down to the ground?

4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith the LORD. Edom

5 If thieves came to thee, Edom if robbers by night, (how art thou cut off!) Edom would they not have stolen till they had enough? if the grapegatherers came to thee, Edom would they not leave some grapes?

6 How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden things sought up!

7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee, and prevailed against thee; that they eat thy bread have laid a wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.

8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?

9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter. Again, Edom

10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever. Edom

11 In the day that thou Edom stoodest on the other side, in the day that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem, even thou wast as one of them. Edom

12 But thou Edom shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their destruction; Edom neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the day of distress. Edom

13 Thou Edom shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in the day of their calamity; yea, thou Edom shouldest not have looked on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
(a city is made up of its people!)

14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway,Edom to cut off those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have delivered Edom up those of his that did remain in the day of distress.

15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, Edom it shall be done unto thee: Edom thy reward shall return upon thine own head. Edom

16 For as ye Edom have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been. Edom

17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their possessions. A prophesy against Edom



18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau Edom for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; Edom for the LORD hath spoken it.


19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall possess Gilead. A prophesy against Edom

20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess the cities of the south.

21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount of Esau; Edom and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.

-------------------

It's all about Edom. Thee, thou, thine... all refer to who? Edom ... the nation, the ancestry of Esau, who become known as Edom. the mount of Esau was inhabited by who? The Edomites. Where? In Edom.

Gen 36:8 Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.
Gen 36:9 And these are the generations of Esau the father of the Edomites in mount Seir:

Isn't Jacob the father of the nation of Israel?
His descendants were to become a great future group of nations called the tribes of Israel. Same with Esau. Obadiah warns Edom of the coming wrath of God.

Thus saith the Lord GOD concerning Edom
Addressing the nation. And yes, of course, a nation is made up of people. But that still does not make valid the claim that oblivion is the result of the second death. Again, the nation will be overthrown, the nation will cease to exist as an independent government, a country.

God speaks to Edom in the first person. Not exactly uncommon in the bible. God speaks to Jerusalem in the same manner a multitude of times not only in the OT but also in NT.

God destroyed the nations of Israel, the tribes of Israel, scattering the people to the four corners of the earth. The nations were obliterated but the people remained. And again, God speaks many times to Babylon in the first person. Thou, thee, thine... all the same, addressing a nation, a country, the entity formed by the collection of a people.

 

[lecoop]

mutzrein said

Being Born again, receiving the gift of eternal life, receiving the Holy Spirit, being baptised in the Holy Spirit, are one and the same thing.

Perhaps a little off topic, but this needs a comment, as it is in gross error. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a second work of the Holy Spirit, and we see people receiving it some time subsequent to them being born again and water baptized in Acts 8 and in Acts 19. Therefore, it is impossible that it is the same thing as regeneration. In regeneration, or the born again experience, the HS goes into the human spirit, and indeed, creates a totally new spirit. In the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the human is plunged into the Holy Spirit (figurtively) so the text always say "on" or "upon." In the baptism with the Holy Spirit, Jesus is the performer, doing the baptism, while in salvation, it is the Holy Spirit performing the recreation of the new spirit.

Coop

 

[mutzrein]

mutzrein said

Being Born again, receiving the gift of eternal life, receiving the Holy Spirit, being baptised in the Holy Spirit, are one and the same thing.

Perhaps a little off topic, but this needs a comment, as it is in gross error. The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a second work of the Holy Spirit, and we see people receiving it some time subsequent to them being born again and water baptized in Acts 8 and in Acts 19. Therefore, it is impossible that it is the same thing as regeneration. In regeneration, or the born again experience, the HS goes into the human spirit, and indeed, creates a totally new spirit. In the baptism with the Holy Spirit, the human is plunged into the Holy Spirit (figurtively) so the text always say "on" or "upon." In the baptism with the Holy Spirit, Jesus is the performer, doing the baptism, while in salvation, it is the Holy Spirit performing the recreation of the new spirit.

Coop

Coop - I appreciate the tone of your posts and you have many valid points to make. The issue of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit of course, as you point out, is a little off the topic here. May I PM you? If I don't respond in a day or two please prompt me with a PM if you wish. I am currently on a training course which may mean I could miss your response.

Thanks

 

[mutzrein]

Hi everyone,

not even if they knew what they were doing carried that punishment and they still disobeyed Him?

Yes, they will be punished by burning; there is no doubt about it. From what I know Jesus they will not be forever burned. It will certainly feel like it. We will not die right away. It takes some time to burn and die.

I don't believe we can put the Bible in the box of our interpretation of the Bible. We have to do it within context.

So what are you saying the context is that we should interpret it in?

 

[lecoop]

So what are you saying the context is that we should interpret it in?

end of quote


The Bible is saying that God is love from begining to the end.

Do you think it is logical that loving God will torture people by burning them forever? Come on! God is watching us if our faith for Him is truthful. If we interpret the Bible because they want to prove they are superior in interpreting it and being exnclusve of other denominations, you have to watch out. This kind of arrogancy is going on in the most of the denominations. It is absolutely ungodly.

There are too many denominations fighting over their theology. This is nothing but another one of those fighting tactics. We should be ashamed of our denominational war and theology.

May God help us!!!!!!!

[emphasis added]

What is logical is that God is fair. If people make a free will choice to live for God here in this life, and in doing so, choose to live with God forever, they are allowed that privilige. On the other hand, if people make a free will choice to ignore God and have nothing to do with him here in this life, they are making a free will choice to live away from God in the next life. In either case, it is not God that chose, but the people themselves. What is sad is that God loves them just as much as He loves those that believe in Him.

Coop

 

[Rick W]

gingercat, lecoop and others,
Logical?
Since when must God adhere to man's logic or more accurately, man's sense of fairplay?
God can't be humanised. Yes, He loves us, we all know that. But what we would have God do and what He actually does are so different it defies any logic man can come up with.

Question:
Is it logical that death must come into the world along with all the world's pain and suffering for the transgression of one man, Adam? Or has that punishment been so long-lasting that we've actually become used to it viewing it as the "natural" way of things? Remember, the original is natural, that of man walking with God where there is no death.

Is death for ALL living things for undetermined millenium the judgment you would have handed down for Adam's submission to temptation?

 

[Solo]

Coop,


Are you reading whole post? When did I say no one will be punished? I said He is not going to torture people forever. If we choose to die, of course He will let us die but not forever in burning fire!

When will the unrighteous be punished and where will they be punished?

 

[John the Baptist]

First we are 'all' God's creation! All of us! We have a 'brain' that responds to the Holy Spirit one way or the other!! All of God's CREATION have this FREE CHOICE! We are told that the Lords Holy Spirit will not [ALWAYS *STRIVE WITH MAN]! (FACT) See Gen. 6:3. None of Gods creation is doing his [own] thing. See Eph. 6:12, or the mature END result as seen in Gen. 4:7's [free choice]. Christ asks Cain a question, does one care enough about the question to read what Christ told him??

Now: "[SEE], I HAVE SET BEFORE THEE THIS DAY *LIFE AND GOOD, AND *DEATH AND EVIL: IN THAT I COMMAND THEE THIS DAY TO LOVE THE LORD THY GOD, TO WALK IN HIS WAYS, AND TO KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS ...

BUT, (conditional free choice like the 'tree' of testing for a [perfect] Adam & Eve before they fell) if thin heart TURN AWAY, so that THOU WILT NOT HEAR, BUT SHALL BE [DRAWN AWAY], and worship other gods, and serve them; (see James 1:15!)

I DENOUNCE UNTO YOU THIS DAY, THAT YE SHALL SURELY PERISH, ...
(again notice!)

I CALL HEAVEN AND EARTH TO [RECORD THIS DAY] AGAINST YOU, THAT *[I HAVE SET BEFORE YOU *LIFE AND DEATH], BLESSING AND CURSING: [THEREFORE *CHOOSE LIFE THAT BOTH THOU AND THY SEED *MAY LIVE]. ... That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou gayest OBEY HIS VOICE, and that thou gayest [CLEAVE UNTO HIM: FOR HE IS LIFE,] and the length of days..." (Deut. 30:15 on in part & with my emphasis)

"But when the [righteous] turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, [shall he live?]

All his righteousness [SHALL NOT BE MENTIONED: IN HIS TRESPASS THAT HE HATH TRESPASSED, AND IN HIS SIN THAT HE HATH SINNED, *IN THEM SHALL HE DIE].

...IS NOT MY WAY EQUAL? (???? ) When a RIGHTEOUS MAN TURNETH AWAY FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, AND COMMITTETH INIQUITY, AND DIETH IN THEM; [*FOR HIS INIQUITY THAT HE HATH DONE *SHALL HE DIE]. AGAIN, WHEN THE WICKED MAN TURNETH AWAY FROM HIS WICKEDNESS THAT HE HATH COMMITTED, AND DOETH THAT WHICH IS LAWFUL AND RIGHT, [*HE SHALL SAVE HIS SOUL ALIVE.] BECAUSE HE CONSIDERETH, ..

(WHY??? CONSIDERETH IS A FREE CHOICE, COME LET US R_E_A_S_O_N TOGETHER SAYETH THE LORD!)

.. AND TURNETH AWAY FROM ALL HIS TRANSGRESSIONS THAT HE HATH COMMITTED, [*HE SHALL SURELY LIVE, HE SHALL NOT DIE]. ...

*FOR I HAVE [NO PLEASURE IN THE DEATH OF HIM THAT DIETH, SAYETH THE LORD GOD: *WHEREFORE TURN YOURSELVES, AND LIVE YE.]" (See Eze. 18:24-32 in part)

OK: We see also that this is talking about the SECOND DEATH! See Eze. 18:4 & Eze. 18:verse 20!! "The [SOUL that sinneth, IT SHALL DIE]."

Hell will be a hot hell that will find the second death ones gone! Obad. 16
And the ones that will be punished the longest will be these of Luke 12:47-48.

---John

 

[Hawkins]

Solo,

I know you want exact Bible verses. I agree with the SDA interpretations of unrighteous ones punishment.

They will be burned and die. The Bible is not making very clere on the hell but all I understand is that unrighteous ones will be burned.

gingercat,

Be frank, I can see that you are an honest person, and I wholeheartedly wish that someday God and His Holy Spirit will give you a full answer to your doubts.

God bless.

 

[mutzrein]

So what are you saying the context is that we should interpret it in?

end of quote


The Bible is saying that God is love from begining to the end.

Do you think it is logical that loving God will torture people by burning them forever? Come on! God is watching us if our faith for Him is truthful. If we interpret the Bible because they want to prove they are superior in interpreting it and being exnclusve of other denominations, you have to watch out. This kind of arrogancy is going on in the most of the denominations. It is absolutely ungodly.

There are too many denominations fighting over their theology. This is nothing but another one of those fighting tactics. We should be ashamed of our denominational war and theology.

May God help us!!!!!!!

The bible is also saying from beginning to end that God is righteous and just.

As far as those who have not received the gift of eternal life (born again) for whatever reason (age, intellect, era, isolation) they will perish. So I agree with you that these will not be sent to hell. This is the question that prompted this thread and to me this is consistent with a righteous and just God.

However, the bible shows us that there are those who after receiving the gift of eternal life turn back to their own ways – that of trying to achieve righteousness by human effort. This is self righteousness. It is an abomination to God and I venture to say a condition that is rife in the church. Now I know that the OSAS brigade do not agree with this possibility, however why do you not see these ones as those spoken of in scripture who will “go away to eternal punishment.†Because again this to me is consistent with the judgement of a righteous and just God.

 

[John the Baptist]

Solo,

I know you want exact Bible verses. I agree with the SDA interpretations of unrighteous ones punishment.

They will be burned and die. The Bible is not making very clere on the hell but all I understand is that unrighteous ones will be burned.

gingercat,

Be frank, I can see that you are an honest person, and I wholeheartedly wish that someday God and His Holy Spirit will give you a full answer to your doubts.

God bless.

What doubts are you talking about? I am frank. Why do you say be frank?

****

Gingercat, John here:
We are told that God's [WAY] is in His Sanctuary. Surely the heavenly one & the copy of that given Moses. See Psalms 77:13.

Anyway, David was having a 'serious time with being envious' of the wicked he says in Psalm 73:2-3 Then he says a few verse on down in Psalm 73:12-17 (use all K.J. verses) that it was after he went into the Sanctuaryof God, 'then understood I their end."

I know that most 'folds' (of Revelation 17:5) do not even know what Bible Sanctuary talk is about, so they are still as David was in his past ignorance. But a study of the Sanctuary of God will find out what all of His 'Ways' (doctrines-2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4) contain.

Anyhow the wicked are to be as the ashes that will be scattered without the camp. Malachi states that.. "And ye shall tread down the wicked; for [they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet] in the day that I [shall do this, saith the Lord of Hosts]."
And even in Ezekiel 28:18 we see that Lucifer will be brought to 'ashes'!

And take note that Malachi & David + many more, are [ALL] 'Inspired' by the same Holy Spirit & are all "Subject to the Prophets"! 1 Corinthians 14:32. In other words, they all agree with each other. :wink:
Just beware of the ones posting 'their' stuff that dis/agree with the Inspired Prophets, huh? Is that [frank] enough for them?? :fadein:

 

[cegr]

The Bible is saying that God is love from begining to the end.

The bible is also saying from beginning to end that God is righteous and just.

It is interesting how people concede that God is love while seeking to qualify God's love as conditional or secondary to Her justice. Mercy is, by definition, the subversion of justice for the sake of restoring the offender. In this sense justice is seen as 'giving people what they deserve'. But perhaps we need to see God's justice as being about restoration, not retribution. Isn't the Risen Christ the preeminent emblem of restoration?

On another note, Karl Barth argues that debating who is in/out of heaven/hell is a sign of spiritual immaturity. It is trying to speculate how God will ultimately judge. He sees this as an extension of pride: humanity as assuming the place of God. He would argue that the best we can say is that God will judge the right way, emphasizing that GOD will judge. When a Christian matures spiritually, the questions about who is in and who is out will fade away.