Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[mutzrein]

According to the Bible, yes, you will be burned. I don't think people who never heard Jesus will be burned in hell but if we reject Him when we had a choice, yes we will be burnd. That's why we have to convince people to accept Jesus.

OK then, three questions for you.

1. Can you point to the scriptures where it says that those that are not born again will be burned?

2. If someone who has never heard of Jesus doesn't get burned where do you say they go?

3. Where does it say that we have to convince people to accept Jesus.

Thanks

If you cannot tell I know the Bible from my comments, I don't think you can discern any one from true or false believers. We need much more than just knowledge to discern whether they are true followers or not. There are many with knowldge without much of fruit of Christianity.

If you don't think you should convince non-believers about Jesus when you say you are follower of His, I must say you are lying to God.

I couldn’t agree with you more on the issue of discerning those who are Christ’s and those who are not. As the scripture says, “By their fruit you shall know themâ€Â.

Now, there are those who know the scripture every which way but who do not know the Lord. This is confirmed again as the scripture says, “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.â€Â

On the other hand there are those who do have a relationship with Him and it is real – and we can tell this because of their fruit. But it does not automatically follow that their knowledge is complete. I put myself in this category. I am constantly amazed at the things that God shows me and I humbly acknowledge that since He is the author of all knowledge and wisdom that He is the only one who can open my eyes and ears to see and hear what He has to say to me. Now at times He may use a brother or sister in the Lord to show me something. At times it is by direct revelation.

So I want to put this to you. If you believe that your knowledge is complete, that’s fine. You can continue believing that. I’m not calling into question your relationship with God. But remember when Paul opposed Peter to his face over the issue of his hypocrisy. Sometimes even the ‘pillars’ of our faith have had to be reminded of the truth.

So now, lets look at the question that you have chosen to say that I am (or could be under the circumstances) lying to God over. You have made a statement that we should convince people to accept Jesus. Now remember I am not questioning your faith. I am questioning whether your assertion is actually scriptural. Can you give me scripture that supports your assertion.

Thanks

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz, I have to admit that you are eloquent writer.

Jesus' follwers have responsibilities of spreading His good news because without Him no one can go to His kingdom. They will perish. God is love; He does not want anyone to perish. That's our main mission for Him; spreading the Truth! He loves everyone. We have to be a good witnesses for Him. That's the best thing we can do for Him!

Thankyou for the compliment.

Yes the gospel is a precious seed given to us to sow in the hearts of men that God has gone before to prepare.

May I PM you?

Regards

 

[John the Baptist]

Topic continued from another thread

[quote="mutzrein":cab33]
... but are you saying those not born-again go to hell?

If a person isn't "regenerated", which is to say acceptance of Jesus Christ as opposed to rebellion, then one must conclude that it's the desire to be without God. And I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.
Can one be with God in heaven without Christ? Deists believe so but that's not based on scripture.

If we are not born again, we are not Christians. We repented when we accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. How can we not be born again if we are repented of our old selfs?

Heaven isn't the issue. It is hell. What do you say happens to those not born again? Do they go to hell according to your understanding?

If you are not born again you are not Christian. If you are not Christian you are not saved.

Yes I understand what you are saying. But are you not concluding that someone who is not 'saved' is going to hell? This is not a forgone conclusion for me. Convince me.[/quote:cab33]

*******
John here:
If Christ is not convincing, who is?? He said in CLEAR TRUTH, "Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN"!

Now, if you want to know the requirement of what is required for this to take place, & what happens then after it does? He tells us this also. But regardless, it is a first requirement & it then is a process towards Maturity! And NO, NO in/mature person will have Everlasting life! (and if one should pass before maturity? he will be judged correctly for where he is at by the one who knows. see Luke 12:47-48) Nahum 1:9 & Hebrews 11:13 equals Romans 8:1 :fadein:

 

[John the Baptist]

Topic continued from another thread

[quote="mutzrein":c0222]
... but are you saying those not born-again go to hell?

If a person isn't "regenerated", which is to say acceptance of Jesus Christ as opposed to rebellion, then one must conclude that it's the desire to be without God. And I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.
Can one be with God in heaven without Christ? Deists believe so but that's not based on scripture.

If we are not born again, we are not Christians. We repented when we accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. How can we not be born again if we are repented of our old selfs?

Heaven isn't the issue. It is hell. What do you say happens to those not born again? Do they go to hell according to your understanding?

If you are not born again you are not Christian. If you are not Christian you are not saved.

Yes I understand what you are saying. But are you not concluding that someone who is not 'saved' is going to hell? This is not a forgone conclusion for me. Convince me.[/quote:c0222]

*******
John here:
If Christ is not convincing, who is?? He said in CLEAR TRUTH, "Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN"!

Now, if you want to know the requirement of what is required for this to take place, & what happens then after it does? He tells us this also. But regardless, it is a first requirement & it then is a process towards Maturity! And NO, NO in/mature person will have Everlasting life! (and if one should pass before maturity? he will be judged correctly for where he is at by the one who knows. see Luke 12:47-48) Nahum 1:9 & Hebrews 11:13 equals Romans 8:1 :fadein:

 

[starbyfar]

yes, they go to hell.

 

[John the Baptist]

mutzrein wrote:
gingercat wrote:
mutzrein wrote:
gingercat wrote:
PotLuck wrote:
Topic continued from another thread

mutzrein wrote:

... but are you saying those not born-again go to hell?


If a person isn't "regenerated", which is to say acceptance of Jesus Christ as opposed to rebellion, then one must conclude that it's the desire to be without God. And I don't think God would make you be somewhere you don't want to be in the first place, that is, with Him in heaven.
Can one be with God in heaven without Christ? Deists believe so but that's not based on scripture.


If we are not born again, we are not Christians. We repented when we accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior. How can we not be born again if we are repented of our old selfs?


Heaven isn't the issue. It is hell. What do you say happens to those not born again? Do they go to hell according to your understanding?


If you are not born again you are not Christian. If you are not Christian you are not saved.


Yes I understand what you are saying. But are you not concluding that someone who is not 'saved' is going to hell? This is not a forgone conclusion for me. Convince me.


*******
John here:
If Christ is not convincing, who is?? He said in CLEAR TRUTH, "Ye MUST BE BORN AGAIN"!

Now, if you want to know the requirement of what is required for this to take place, & what happens then after it does? He tells us this also. But regardless, it is a first requirement & it then is a process towards Maturity! And NO, NO in/mature person will have Everlasting life! (and if one should pass before maturity? he will be judged correctly for where he is at by the one who knows. see Luke 12:47-48) Nahum 1:9 & Hebrews 11:13 equals Romans 8:1

_________________
Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9 for our provisions on earth, thank you Master!

 

[mutzrein]

yes, they go to hell.

I know that is what everyone (well most everyone anyway) says but where are the scriptures to support it?

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

I am NOT born again, and I am as much of a christian as you are.

I am baptised, I agree that Jesus lived, died and was raised, I agree that beliving in Him brings eternal peaceful life in heaven, but I am NOT BORN AGAIN in the way that is meant on this forum. It is totally horrible to take mans definition there and pass your manmade judgment on us for not believing this garbage of born again junk.

Man, that makes me mad,

noblej6

 

[starbyfar]

John 3:3 - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.


John 3:7
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again


1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

 

[mutzrein]

John 3:3 - In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.


John 3:7
You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again


1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Is this a response to me? Perhaps not since it didn't have any reference to hell.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John the Baptist,

I am NOT born again, and I am as much of a christian as you are.

I am baptised, I agree that Jesus lived, died and was raised, I agree that beliving in Him brings eternal peaceful life in heaven, but I am NOT BORN AGAIN in the way that is meant on this forum. It is totally horrible to take mans definition there and pass your manmade judgment on us for not believing this garbage of born again junk.

Man, that makes me mad,

noblej6

****************
Mad, or is it righteousness indignation?? :wink:

Anyway, John BELIEVES what Christ's Word say's! It is an REQUIREMENT of the one that you say that you believe in, right????

About what posters, or folds teach? I class them all mostly in Revelation 17:5! And when Christ tells me that it was a REQUIREMENT, I went prayerfully looking! And just because folks claim truth & botch it up doesn't mean that what is said by Christ is wrong, does it? The devil perverts [ALL Truth]!

Take a peek at Roman's 2:14-15 and see if you can see how that you can be absolutely SURE that these ones who had never even heard of Christ, or His Born Again requirement, were none the less BORN AGAIN!!? It is there if you are spiritually alert?

And the only way to know for sure if we are right with the Godhead is not only by 'keeping their Eternal Covenant Commandments', but.. (TAKE NOTE!!) the Master of the Covenant tell's us the [MOTIVE!] He says that [IF YE LOVE ME] KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS]! The MOTIVE OF TRUE AGAPE LOVE is given when one is Born Again! And these others that you talk of, or about, whoever they might be?? they can claim that they have had a 'rebirth' and that could be true? yet, for the 'rebirth or the Born Again one', that is only the REQUIRED STARTING POINT! OK? Got that?

In other words, I have been Born Again. (Hebrews 6:1-5 has me convinced of this!) But say that I was in the wrong 'fold' when this came about? Or that I was of the John 10:16 or the Revelation 18:4 ones? Or the Revelation 17:5 one? Or even these of Romans 2:14-15?? Then the Holy Spirit that LEADS all Born Again ones of Romans 8:14 & convicts of more Truth (see Hosea 4:6) such as.. 1 John 2:4 or Isaiah 8:20, and then I refuse to act upon it? Then what??? HELL IS THE BOTTOM LINE VERDICT by my own free will choice! : Ecclesiastes 12:13-14. And see Luke 12:47-48
All of the ones of Hebrews 6:1-6 do not stop at verse 5, verse 6 is their own free choice to make, either for or against what ever the Holy Spirit Leads them to do, and they either 'freely' accept or reject.

Hay man, I notice that there are a lot of verses posted here? But I am a Christ believing Born Again one! :fadein: See Matthew 4:4 :wink: And the scriptures are from an old man's m. bank, so they might just be posted up wrong?
But in either case, they most likely will keep you busy for a while, huh? :wink:

---John

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the baptist,

In other words, I have been Born Again. (Hebrews 6:1-5 has me convinced of this!)

There I have a live one who tells me they are born again.

Now what is this Hebrews 6:1-5 about?

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Good for you, Hebrews 6 tells me I'm okay too and I'm NOT born again as this forum means it.

Tell me Mr. Baptist, if you are presently born again, that would mean that you can see the kingdom of God. So have a quick look in there for me and tell me what color the throne of God is on the left side.

If you are born again as John 3:3 states could you enter into the Kingdom of God for me and see if Mother Teresa is there? John the Baptist, can you walk out on the highway and survive the impact of a speeding Kenworth, in other words are you immortal today?

If you can not do these thinfgs you are not 'born again' as John 3 talks about.
You have received a new birth as per 1 Peter 1, which sets you apart from absolutely nobody because that is a result of all of the saving work of Jesus Christ.

I'll leave you with this from Christ Himself.......

12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

noblej6

 

[mutzrein]

Hi John the baptist,

In other words, I have been Born Again. (Hebrews 6:1-5 has me convinced of this!)

There I have a live one who tells me they are born again.

Now what is this Hebrews 6:1-5 about?

1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.

4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Good for you, Hebrews 6 tells me I'm okay too and I'm NOT born again as this forum means it.

Tell me Mr. Baptist, if you are presently born again, that would mean that you can see the kingdom of God. So have a quick look in there for me and tell me what color the throne of God is on the left side.

If you are born again as John 3:3 states could you enter into the Kingdom of God for me and see if Mother Teresa is there? John the Baptist, can you walk out on the highway and survive the impact of a speeding Kenworth, in other words are you immortal today?

If you can not do these thinfgs you are not 'born again' as John 3 talks about.
You have received a new birth as per 1 Peter 1, which sets you apart from absolutely nobody because that is a result of all of the saving work of Jesus Christ.

I'll leave you with this from Christ Himself.......

12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

noblej6

I'm a live one noblej6 but if you want to believe that being born again is something that happens at the resurrection, fine. Believe it.

All your statements do is confirm the words of Jesus when he said to Nicodemus that unless a man is born of the Spirit He cannot see the Kingdom of God. You cannot see it because you are not born again. And if you are not born again you will not enter it. And if you are not born again before your mortal body gets eaten by worms or when Jesus returns then you will not be born again afterwards.

I know I have been born again. And it is not because I am convinced of it by some scripture. The same Spirit that Jesus was born of, is the Spirit that I have been born of. I have already received eternal life - not in terms of an immortal body but an immortal spirit. Am I in the Kingdom of God now? Yes. Those who are born again (and not just those who say they are) live within the realm of the Spirit now. When Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of this world†he was talking about the realm of the Spirit as opposed to the earthly or carnal. And since I am born again (Baptised in the Holy Spirit) I know what it is to walk in the Spirit. I know that I have passed from death to Life. Having been dead in my trespasses & sins I am now alive in Christ.

And God speaks to the man of the Spirit of heavenly things, but it is not because man has applied a process of mental assent to believe. It is because the Spirit of Christ dwells in Him since he is born of God. And being a child of God whose delight is in pleasing his heavenly Father, his father shows him and speaks to him of heavenly things, spiritual things, things that the man of the flesh cannot understand. How could he understand, since these things are of the Spirit.

Now of course in saying all of this, it does not mean that a person such as yourself is not a good person or that you do not endeavour to live a godly life. From what you have said, it seems that you do, but this in itself is not the criteria required in order that man may receive the righteousness of God that comes by faith. As I said, faith in God is not mental assent brought about by human desire. Faith is a gift of God. It is bestowed by His grace to those whom He has chosen to give the gift of life. And this through His Spirit.

 

[John the Baptist]

Being Born Again brings the fully surrendered one to Christ's Eternal Covenant (pledge on our part by baptism='s death, fully buried, and Born Again life committed to follow Christ) as Adam was before sin. All flesh will die, so we are talking of the spiritual afterlife. Yet, in this life we are to be as Adam was before sin. We are to MATURE and be safe to save! We have all Grace & Power given us for victory! Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9. If one has got to sin when it is know to be sin?? then, they need to be Born Again! The Holy Spirit NEVER LEADS one to sin! Romans 8:14

---John

 

[Solo]

Being Born Again brings the fully surrendered one to Christ's Eternal Covenant (pledge on our part by baptism='s death, fully buried, and Born Again life committed to follow Christ) as Adam was before sin. All flesh will die, so we are talking of the spiritual afterlife. Yet, in this life we are to be as Adam was before sin. We are to MATURE and be safe to save! We have all Grace & Power given us for victory! Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9. If one has got to sin when it is know to be sin?? then, they need to be Born Again! The Holy Spirit NEVER LEADS one to sin! Romans 8:14

---John

John, How many days in a row have you gone without sinning?

Did the Apostle Paul sin after being born again?

It is that nasty flesh that you carry around that leads you to sin.

And all of us have that nasty flesh to cart around until we die or are changed at Jesus' coming!


14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. 20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. 21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. 22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25

 

[John the Baptist]

O wretched man that I am! [who shall deliver me from the body of this death?] 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Romans 7:14-25
_________________

So you are saying that my 'carnal' body is to control my Born Again mind? I see that Paul is telling me that the real Christian has now gotten the 'Required Rebirth for a Born Again mind' to control the carnal body! :fadein:

(consider your view with 2 Peter 3:15-16 & even Acts 10:13 as to why Peter knew that the C-L-E-A-R Vision meant another thing!?) Forget the last one, you won't 'see' that perhaps??

He seems to be the Holy Spirit 'led' Romans 8:14 one to say such! See 2 Corinthians 12:9? Unless the carnal body is stronger than the Grace of Christ, or the 'mind' does not believe God?? And then there is Philippians 4:12 telling the 'UNIVERSE' that I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me."!! Seems that that is Paul again penning his Word through Gods Inspiration? :fadein:

OH' by the way, you told me that I would not like the old you? (if I remember rightly?) Well, let me tell you that I am not fond of the 'posting' threatening style of the new you either, if your 'new' mind cannot keep in check your 'desire' to follow your 'fleshy' stuff! :

So perhaps for me to be able to post much longer, I had just better add you to my Titus 3:9-11 list for now? (see the question mark :o )

---John

 

[noblej6]

Hi Group,

We are getting there, but it is slow.

Mutzrien said this:

Now of course in saying all of this, it does not mean that a person such as yourself is not a good person or that you do not endeavour to live a godly life. From what you have said, it seems that you do, but this in itself is not the criteria required in order that man may receive the righteousness of God that comes by faith. As I said, faith in God is not mental assent brought about by human desire. Faith is a gift of God. It is bestowed by His grace to those whom He has chosen to give the gift of life. And this through His Spirit.

What is required is this:

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

Did Mother Teresa believe, yes or no? Was Mother Teresa an earthly example of what God considers a good person? Yes or no? Did Mother Teresa fill this order, yes or no?

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

If she did these things it appears as if God would consider her for eternal life.

Did she ever say she was a born again christian? I highly doubt it.

We are getting closer as we are now referring to the afterlife a bit here. That is where this immortality kicks in, not after some out of body earthly experience.

John the baptist didn't answer yes to any of the questions I asked concerning John 3, nor can he. The reason is because to answer yes to those questions you have to have physically died first, then you are truly born again a spiritual being as per John 3. You can SEE the kingdom of God, you can ENTER the kingdom of God and you are at that time IMMORTAL.

Once again I will say that the term 'born again' isn't the problem, it is only how certain denominations use it. It has become to some to mean that those who don't experience this phenomena as they describe it are not worthy of heaven. However, to accept Christ and believe in His word, by whatever name you place on it would fit scripture as being acceptable to God. This hint that all must experience this man made 'experience' is wrong, wrong, wrong. That has always been my point here.

noblej6

 

[noblej6]

Hi gingercat,

There is no problem with the term if used as you are indicating. That is perfect. That is exactly what Catholics mean as they describe their baptism and so on I think. Many protestants consider an indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the same as your meaning of the 'born again.'

However, if you look thru this thread the thing that comes out is that if you are not hanging out with a group who calls themselves 'born again', goes thru this earthly experience they describe as born again, you are going to hell.

Did you notice the number of times I have stated that Mother Teresa was not 'born again' as the thread sees it? There are those who insist that Mother Teresa is not saved because she was not born again. Mother Teresa would be in Hell as this thread would have it. Howver, of course she is saved..

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

There are those who insist that Mother Teresa is not saved because she was not born again. Mother Teresa would be in Hell as this thread would have it. Howver, of course she is saved..

****
Your gal mentioned here in your post can only be saved by being Born Again! Was she Born Again, and ignorantly in yoked membership with Rome? Only God knows that! See John 10:16, Ephesians 4:5 and Revelation 18:4.

Being Born Again means that mankind is brought back (recreated-Born Again!) to where Adam was when he was first created. Perfect! Romans 8:1 with NO CONDEMNATION! And as Adam did not stay there, neither are we 'programed' robots who have no freedom of choice!
Yet, it is a REQUIRED STARTING POINT!! John 3:3, and you are still equal too this ignorance? See John 3:9-10???

And yes, the mind is what was recreated. not the dieing body.
Again see 2 Corinthians 3:3, Hebrews 8:10, Hebrews 10:15-16 for starters.
Christ made it very easy for understanding when He stated that.. "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS." And if any are doing so even in 'ignorance', what else could they do???
But if that is the case, neither you or I can read the mind to know one way or the other!! (THANK GOD!)

I best add that, that is not the case with the satanic Babylonian teachings of Rome though! :
---John

 

[Rick W]

The second death finds one GONE for Eternity as Obadiah documents. As though they had NEVER BEEN. : What does that mean???
****

Look at the context. It's talking about nations, an address concerning Edom. Surely there are nations, civilizations we know nothing about. And Babylon, one that we do know of, is as if it never existed. Same with Tyre, Sodom and Gomorrah along with a number of extinct biblical nations.
God speaks to nations as a whole, as we well know, like when He addresses Jerusalem as a nation.

This has nothing to do with an individual's fate at the second death. I'm quite sure there are many nations that we, as wise and learned as we are, know nothing about.

BTW,
just got back from a 2 week trip to Salt Lake City so pardon me coming in on this so late. I have a lot to catch up on.