Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[SputnikBoy]

The worst that can happen to those not born again is that they will not gain heaven. There is no literal hell. They will be eternally dead ...the very opposite to those who will be eternally alive. When are some of you going to catch on?

 

[Solo]

The worst that can happen to those not born again is that they will not gain heaven. There is no literal hell. They will be eternally dead ...the very opposite to those who will be eternally alive. When are some of you going to catch on?

Another false teaching of the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons, to name a few.

 

[SputnikBoy]

The worst that can happen to those not born again is that they will not gain heaven. There is no literal hell. They will be eternally dead ...the very opposite to those who will be eternally alive. When are some of you going to catch on?

Another false teaching of the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons, to name a few.

I don't know about the JWs or the Mormons or others but I do know that there is no such thing as an 'Adventist teaching' in regard to this particular issue. Everything can be backed up by scripture. The secret is to separate the literal from the illustrative. This is a MUST. It then makes sense and also allows God to retain His high standard of ethics!

 

[noblej6]

Hi sputnik,

There is no literal hell. They will be eternally dead ...the very opposite to those who will be eternally alive. When are some of you going to catch on?

I hope you're right, but this doesn't look good.....

Daniel 12
2"Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

John 5
29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 25
....ends with

46"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Actually I would say there IS a literal Hell, I can't say who will spend eternity there tho. ...Neither can anyone else.

noblej6

 

[mutzrein]

Hi gingercat,

There is no problem with the term if used as you are indicating. That is perfect. That is exactly what Catholics mean as they describe their baptism and so on I think. Many protestants consider an indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the same as your meaning of the 'born again.'

However, if you look thru this thread the thing that comes out is that if you are not hanging out with a group who calls themselves 'born again', goes thru this earthly experience they describe as born again, you are going to hell.

noblej6

So in your estimation, where does that leave one such as I who has already been born again since I have received the Holy Spirit, and who believes that those not born again do not go to hell.

Of course I do differ from many of those who claim to be born again and who believe that the rest go to hell. That is exactly the reason I suggested Potluck start this thread.

 

[Rick W]

The worst that can happen to those not born again is that they will not gain heaven. There is no literal hell. They will be eternally dead ...the very opposite to those who will be eternally alive. When are some of you going to catch on?

Catch on?
lol

I know. No loving God would commit non-believers to such a tragedy as hell forever. Doesn't make sense to do such a thing does it?
Thing is, His ways aren't susceptable to our judgment.

The second death? Ah, the future of His judgment, something we can't fathom as being reality because it hasn't yet happened. Why is it we can't learn from the past ignoring that which has already occured? His judgment. How can a loving God commit ALL of mankind to ALL the suffering in this world for the fault of one guy, Adam? I mean, come on now. So he ate an apple. Does that mean we and all life on earth are tossed to the hell of suffering? Animals too since they are under our dominance. All life comdemned to suffer for the disregard of one simple commanmdment by a guy we don't even know.

Does that make any sense to your sensibilty of righteous and humanistic judgment? If so please explain how that one trangression warrants death to come into the world for thousands of years and who knows how much longer.

In human terms I would think maybe cast Adam and his lot out of The Garden and leave the rest of us there. Seems only right, no? After all, it wasn't our fault Adam fell to temptation right? Why comdemn us all to the first death in the first place because of someone else's disregard for God's integrity?

So I ask those who cannot accept His future judgment as the work of a righteous and loving God why He made things so miserable for us for milleniums passed? How can you justify His judgment back then as OK but toss out His future comdemnation as something He wouldn't do?
Sometimes I think we allow our sense of right and wrong to overshadow the authority of God Himself solely based on how we feel about something. And how can one justify the destruction of The Flood against those who may never heard of the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob in the first place let alone comdemn those that follow to a world of depravity?

Before we condemn His future judgment to the trash heap I think it wise to consider what He's done in the past. Even if that judgment goes against our sense of fairplay. And I believe it prudent to take that as a very strong warning that God is not interested in man's opinion of righteousness or man's sensibilities. After all, even the non-believer shares in the suffering of this world. Is that right?

[edit]
Look at it this way.
If one wants to believe the second death as oblivion and not as eternal separation from God where there is no good then that's up to them. But God gave us, one and ALL, a very powerful shot across the bow instituting the first death. that includes believer, nonbeliever, young, old, infirm, healthy, the idiots and the academically gifted. If we heed that not then God's next reprisal against rebellion isn't going to be the death as many want to believe, like unto that of the first.
It's up to you. Heed His warning or not for His first judgment still stands, the first death and nobody can or has appealed that to a higher court. The first death is a warning of coming and greater punishment no matter how unrighteous or repulsive to you that may sound. He doesn't mean to tickle the ear... He means business.

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

Whoops,what do we have here?

Your gal mentioned here in your post can only be saved by being Born Again! Was she Born Again, and ignorantly in yoked membership with Rome? Only God knows that! See John 10:16, Ephesians 4:5 and Revelation 18:4.

It appears to me that maybe John the Baptist would be the one not following God's instructions here and therefore maybe it is him in danger of eternal Hell.....even tho he says he is 'born again.' I don't have any say in the final outcome, I'm just wondering.

Does John fit this one?

Matthew 5:22
But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 7
1"Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Some examples of the above would be not judging others such as say the Catholic believers...maybe.

Don't go into any crowded area of ordinary folks and start bad mouthing Mother Teresa or you could wind up missing a few teeth. She is a very respected woman and deserves the respect she gets. True, I don't know if she has eternal life or not , but I have better biblical arguments that she does than you have saying she don't.

noblej6

 

[Solo]

The worst that can happen to those not born again is that they will not gain heaven. There is no literal hell. They will be eternally dead ...the very opposite to those who will be eternally alive. When are some of you going to catch on?

Another false teaching of the Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, and Mormons, to name a few.

I don't know about the JWs or the Mormons or others but I do know that there is no such thing as an 'Adventist teaching' in regard to this particular issue. Everything can be backed up by scripture. The secret is to separate the literal from the illustrative. This is a MUST. It then makes sense and also allows God to retain His high standard of ethics!

You do not know much. Ellen G. White is the false prophet that the Seventh Day Adventists get their false teachings from. Ellen states the following in The Great Controversy Between Christ and Satan, "How repugnant to every emotion of love and mercy, and even to our sense of justice, is the doctrine that the wicked dead are tormented with fire and brimstone in an eternally burning hell; that for the sins of a brief earthly life they are to suffer torture as long as God shall live."
In the same writing, Ellen G. White makes another unscriptural statement about the everlasting punishment doctrine and those that hold it, "It is beyond the power of teh human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment." "The theory of eternal torment is one of the false doctrines that constitute the wine of the abomination of Babylon, of which she makes all nations drink...They received it from Rome....If we turn from the testimony of God's word, and accept false doctrines because our fathers taught them, we fall under the condemnation pronounced upon Babylon; we are drinking of the wine of her abomination."

What is a "MUST" is to become born of God and not born of Adventists so that the Holy Spirit can guide you into all truth, and not the spirit of false doctrines from the false prophet Ellen G. White.

 

[John the Baptist]

The second death finds one GONE for Eternity as Obadiah documents. As though they had NEVER BEEN. : What does that mean???
****

Look at the context. It's talking about nations, an address concerning Edom. Surely there are nations, civilizations we know nothing about. And Babylon, one that we do know of, is as if it never existed. Same with Tyre, Sodom and Gomorrah along with a number of extinct biblical nations.
God speaks to nations as a whole, as we well know, like when He addresses Jerusalem as a nation.

This has nothing to do with an individual's fate at the second death. I'm quite sure there are many nations that we, as wise and learned as we are, know nothing about.

BTW,
just got back from a 2 week trip to Salt Lake City so pardon me coming in on this so late. I have a lot to catch up on.

*******
Missed your very sincere 'mature' postings, welcome back.

About the above? see verse 15! Check out Luke 12:47-48. And 'as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward .." (is nations?)

Do nations 'drink' on the Holy Mt. of God? But regardless, they will be included in the Eternal Nothingness of the .. 'soul that sinneth shall [die]' of both Ezekiel 18:4 & Ezekiel 18:20.

Even the Ezekiel 18:24-28 talks of this final warning of complete extermination! It is called Gods strange act! Isaiah 28:21-22. And we see why so in Ezekiel 18:32..
"For I have no pleasure in the [death] of him [dieth], [sayeth the Lord God:] wherefore [turn your selves, and live ye.]" (yet most still fight this Truth to their death's finish & believe & teach the devel's first lie of ye shall not surely die!)

But, surely we know that for any to live with 'conditional' immortality, it would require all to have access to the tree of life, not just the redeemed ones.
---John

 

[Rick W]

Missed your very sincere 'mature' postings, welcome back.

Thank you John. It's good to be back.

About the above? see verse 15! Check out Luke 12:47-48. And 'as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward .." (is nations?)

Do nations 'drink' on the Holy Mt. of God?

These are from two separate study bibles.
Drinking from the "cup of the wrath of God" is not uncommon language in the bible, even for nations.

"as if they had never been" doesn't refer to oblivion at the second death but the total destruction of a nation as a whole. The entire chapter addresses Edom as a nation to serve as a warning from God. There's no reference to an individual's fate at the final judgment. God sent the prophet to speak to Edom, to warn Edom to change it's sinful ways.

 

[noblej6]

Hi Mutzrein,

So in your estimation, where does that leave one such as I who has already been born again since I have received the Holy Spirit, and who believes that those not born again do not go to hell.

Let me sort this out........

Born again..recieving the Holy Spirit....Yes, that is the proper way to look at it I would say. Knowing of course, that Catholics and Methodists and whoever have that same oppurtunity. It is not limited to evangelicals and such.

Now the believing that those who are not born again or those who have not recieived the HOly Spirit do not go to Hell????

You could be right and I hope you are, but like I said in a post to Sputnik, it looks pretty certain that there is a Hell and Jesus decides who goes there. I doubt it has much to do with my personal declaration that I have the Holy Spirit or not, I think He will decide as per Hebrews 9:27, that is what this judgment seat is all about.

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi Mutzrein,

So in your estimation, where does that leave one such as I who has already been born again since I have received the Holy Spirit, and who believes that those not born again do not go to hell.

Let me sort this out........

Born again..recieving the Holy Spirit....Yes, that is the proper way to look at it I would say. Knowing of course, that Catholics and Methodists and whoever have that same oppurtunity. It is not limited to evangelicals and such.

Now the believing that those who are not born again or those who have not recieived the HOly Spirit do not go to Hell????

You could be right and I hope you are, but like I said in a post to Sputnik, it looks pretty certain that there is a Hell and Jesus decides who goes there. I doubt it has much to do with my personal declaration that I have the Holy Spirit or not, I think He will decide as per Hebrews 9:27, that is what this judgment seat is all about.
noblej6

***
Pretty good! Now find the whole 'duty' of man recorded? Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 I sugest that it takes the Born Again person who now would 'desire' to keep the Godhead's Word in these verses! Then there are others seen in [their Word] recorded in 1 John 2:4.
--John

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Mutzrein,

So in your estimation, where does that leave one such as I who has already been born again since I have received the Holy Spirit, and who believes that those not born again do not go to hell.

Let me sort this out........

Born again..recieving the Holy Spirit....Yes, that is the proper way to look at it I would say. Knowing of course, that Catholics and Methodists and whoever have that same oppurtunity. It is not limited to evangelicals and such.

Now the believing that those who are not born again or those who have not recieived the HOly Spirit do not go to Hell????

You could be right and I hope you are, but like I said in a post to Sputnik, it looks pretty certain that there is a Hell and Jesus decides who goes there. I doubt it has much to do with my personal declaration that I have the Holy Spirit or not, I think He will decide as per Hebrews 9:27, that is what this judgment seat is all about.

noblej6

Are you wanting to sort your own beliefs out or mine?

Being Born again, receiving the gift of eternal life, receiving the Holy Spirit, being baptised in the Holy Spirit, are one and the same thing. And God is no respecter of persons as far as denomination is concerned. Of course there are those who are born again in the whole spectrum of denominations (and non-denominations) but that in itself does not justify any particular doctrine that one or all of these groups hold to.

And let us remember that being born of the Spirit of God is not based on human decision. As scripture says, “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God  children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.†You see the latter qualifies the former.

Now as far as hell is concerned, yes of course it exists and it will be Jesus who judges. Those who have received the gift of life will be judged according to what they have done with the gift – some to eternal reward, some to eternal punishment.

Those who have not received the gift of life will perish. It is the gift of eternal life that differentiates between those who are judged and those who are not. And this shows the righteousness of God in that those who through no fault of their own have never heard the gospel, those who are too young to understand, those who are intellectually handicapped etc will not be eternally punished but will die.

 

[Rick W]

So we are to believe that spiritual death is the same as death of the flesh?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:9 Who3748 shall be punished5099, 1349 with everlasting166 destruction3639 from575 the presence4383 of the3588 Lord,2962 and2532 from575 the3588 glory1391 of his846 power;2479

Prolonged form.
Prolonged for how long? Everlasting.

We have a hard time trying to understand how something can be destroyed at length since in our physical world even something on fire is consumed sooner or later, all fuel is spent. We seem to equal spiritual fire with the fire we know, hot gases released due to rapid oxidation. Is this then to say there must be oxygen in heaven?
Same with smoke.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Everlasting destruction. It's a hard concept yes, but anything spiritual is tough to understand locked in the world we find ourselves. After all, how can smoke rise forever and ever without the fuel producing the smoke being entirely consumed sooner or later? Yet, the smoke does rise for eternity. It seems the fire and smoke in the spiritual world is not like the fire and smoke we know. How can it be? It's not physical. Yet, it exists. Forever and ever.

 

[John the Baptist]

That sounds like a lot of smoke to me! :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

Is S. & G. still smoking? Jude 1:7??

"AND THEY [SHALL BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN.]" That my friend is the ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL! Obadiah 16!

"For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: ... For the living know that they shall die: [but the d-e-a-d KNOW NOT ANYTHING], ... neither have THEY ANY MORE A REWARD: [FOR THE MEMORY OF THEM IS FORGOTTEN. *ALSO THEIR LOVE, AND THEIR HATRED, AND THEIR ENVY, *IS NOW PERISHED;] .." Eccl. 9:4-6 in part. These somehow, now have a BRAIN??

"For in [death] there [IS NO REMEMBRANCE OF THEE]". Psalms 6:5. Again, rembrance of God requires.. thinking! (no offence intended, but the doctrine has a foul smell & is cultic at best! see Gen. 4:7)

Again: "The dead PRAISE NOT THE LORD, *NEITHER [ANY THAT GO DOWN INTO SILENCE.]" Psalms 115:17 Yet, we for many years now, just keep on hearing that.. "ye shall not SURELY DIE". God/Forbid!

Again: "For that which [befalleth the sons of men befalleth *BEASTS;] EVEN AS ONE DIETH, SO DIETH THE OTHER; [YEA, THEY ALL HAVE *ONE BREATH; SO THAT A MAN HAS NO PREEMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST]; ALL IS VANITY. [ALL GO INTO ONE PLACE; ALL ARE DUST AND RETURN TO DUST AGAIN]."

The [ONLY OTHER GIFT IS A *CONDITIONAL ONE] given to the saved, as is seen in Acts 5:32 & John 3:3. See 2 Cor. 3:3 also. And these ones ONLY, are BORN AGAIN to never die again, after being recreated at the RESURRECTION! Note Eze. 37 for when this re/uniting takes place!

"... BEHOLD, O MY PEOPLE, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, ... AND YE SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD, WHEN I HAVE OPENED YOUR GRAVES, O MY PEOPLE, AND BROUGHT YOU UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES. (now take note!) AND I SHALL PUT *[MY SPIRIT IN YOU, AND YE SHALL LIVE], .. [I THE LORD HAVE *SPOKEN IT, AND PERFORMED IT, SAYETH THE LORD]." Eze. 37:12-14 in part.

The above is even interesting usage of both "SHALL" & "HAVE"! See Rom. 4:17's last part of the verse.

Bottom line! Man [DOES SURELY DIE!] The Everlasting Gospel & Conditional Everlasting Covenant are the only [OTHER] means out of this! See Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20, and the requirement of Acts 4:12! This is an ETERNAL TRUTH!!

Man [REQUIRES] the BORN AGAIN LIFE to be promised ETERNAL LIFE!
Only [HE] will not DIE THE SECOND DEATH!

Both will die once! Only ONE IS BORN AGAIN OF THE HOLY GHOST. The Holy Spirit is GIVEN ONLY FOR THE LIVING!! (OBEDIENCE! Acts 5:32)
Both have the BREATH OF LIFE to give up at their death. It has NO BRAINS! It does NO THINKING!

Both are promised a RESURRECTION. One [ONLY] will be REJOINED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT UPON THIS FIRST RESURRECTION, NEVER TO DIE AGAIN. The other ones will not have been Born Again at their resurrection! They WILL DIE THE SECOND DEATH AND WILL CEASE TO EXIST! Unless they are Born Again or Converted at their second resurrection? (foolishness!) These ones will 'BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NEVER BEEN' by their free choice of DISOBEDIENCE! And sin will not arise a SECOND time! Na, 1:9

How can you know where you stand in all of this? Christ states it VERY simple.. "IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS" You know where you stand!
---John

 

[Rick W]

Is S. & G. still smoking

"AND THEY [SHALL BE AS THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN.]" That my friend is the ETERNAL EVERLASTING GOSPEL! Obadiah 16!

OK John. One at a time.

I've addressed Obadiah 16. Let's focus on this verse first since it seems to be your mainstay.

What say you? And please, let's stick with the verse in question. Does this verse pertain to a nation or not?

-----------------------------------------------------

About the above? see verse 15! Check out Luke 12:47-48. And 'as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward .." (is nations?)

Do nations 'drink' on the Holy Mt. of God?

These are from two separate study bibles.
Drinking from the "cup of the wrath of God" is not uncommon language in the bible, even for nations.

"as if they had never been" doesn't refer to oblivion at the second death but the total destruction of a nation as a whole. The entire chapter addresses Edom as a nation to serve as a warning from God. There's no reference to an individual's fate at the final judgment. God sent the prophet to speak to Edom, to warn Edom to change it's sinful ways.



again...

The second death finds one GONE for Eternity as Obadiah documents. As though they had NEVER BEEN. : What does that mean???
****

Look at the context. It's talking about nations, an address concerning Edom. Surely there are nations, civilizations we know nothing about. And Babylon, one that we do know of, is as if it never existed. Same with Tyre, Sodom and Gomorrah along with a number of extinct biblical nations.
God speaks to nations as a whole, as we well know, like when He addresses Jerusalem as a nation.

This has nothing to do with an individual's fate at the second death. I'm quite sure there are many nations that we, as wise and learned as we are, know nothing about.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, we are at separate ends of a straight line perhaps? You might be headed right? But 'i' see the Everlasting Gospel as all light & Truth, meaning that [any Truth must include all creation!]

What does that mean? When God says something, He includes ETERNITY! (or He says that it does not) I will leave it there, but will include this Ecclesiastes verse:
"... The thing hath been (past/tense!) [is that which shall be]; and that which [is done] is that which [shall be done:] and there is [no new thing under the sun.]"

You see, I believe that! :wink: So for me, what was before the first creation of Adam? And Adam's first (pro/created) son rebelled & fell from Grace! Now read the verse aqain! Can God lie? No, it is imposable for God to lie. So who was the one in Ezekiel 28:14-18, and what have I learned about him then? You see what I mean? It most likely means nothing much to you??

---John

 

[SputnikBoy]

So we are to believe that spiritual death is the same as death of the flesh?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:9 Who3748 shall be punished5099, 1349 with everlasting166 destruction3639 from575 the presence4383 of the3588 Lord,2962 and2532 from575 the3588 glory1391 of his846 power;2479

Prolonged form.
Prolonged for how long? Everlasting.

We have a hard time trying to understand how something can be destroyed at length since in our physical world even something on fire is consumed sooner or later, all fuel is spent. We seem to equal spiritual fire with the fire we know, hot gases released due to rapid oxidation. Is this then to say there must be oxygen in heaven?
Same with smoke.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Everlasting destruction. It's a hard concept yes, but anything spiritual is tough to understand locked in the world we find ourselves. After all, how can smoke rise forever and ever without the fuel producing the smoke being entirely consumed sooner or later? Yet, the smoke does rise for eternity. It seems the fire and smoke in the spiritual world is not like the fire and smoke we know. How can it be? It's not physical. Yet, it exists. Forever and ever.

Okay, you've allowed for the possibility of 'the smoke rising forever and ever' being of a 'spiritual' nature. Can you therefore go the extra yard and allow the possibility of this entire concept of hell being 'metaphorical' in nature?

 

[John the Baptist]

So we are to believe that spiritual death is the same as death of the flesh?

2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:9 Who3748 shall be punished5099, 1349 with everlasting166 destruction3639 from575 the presence4383 of the3588 Lord,2962 and2532 from575 the3588 glory1391 of his846 power;2479

Prolonged form.
Prolonged for how long? Everlasting.

We have a hard time trying to understand how something can be destroyed at length since in our physical world even something on fire is consumed sooner or later, all fuel is spent. We seem to equal spiritual fire with the fire we know, hot gases released due to rapid oxidation. Is this then to say there must be oxygen in heaven?
Same with smoke.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Everlasting destruction. It's a hard concept yes, but anything spiritual is tough to understand locked in the world we find ourselves. After all, how can smoke rise forever and ever without the fuel producing the smoke being entirely consumed sooner or later? Yet, the smoke does rise for eternity. It seems the fire and smoke in the spiritual world is not like the fire and smoke we know. How can it be? It's not physical. Yet, it exists. Forever and ever.

Okay, you've allowed for the possibility of 'the smoke rising forever and ever' being of a 'spiritual' nature. Can you therefore go the extra yard and allow the possibility of this entire concept of hell being 'metaphorical' in nature?

********
How about Jude 1:7 then??