Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[lecoop]

Exactly.
But now I have life. Can I consciously rebel against God? That is, decide to reject the Word of God? Of course I can, thereby choosing oblivion as opposed to risking Hell.

I think you err here. In rejecting the word of God,, you then must have had knowledge of it first. You made a choice with your will, and God gives us this choice. However, please show us "oblivion" in the word. In truth, by rejection the one way to eternal life, you have by your will chosen eternal death. Your third option is just not scriptural.

"Lake of fire" is eternal.

Agreed

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever


Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So by verse 20:14 only the backslider suffers death?
The lake of fire is everlasting and of course so is whatever is in it.

Only are few will be found in the book of life at his judgement. (narrow is the way...) Their name stays their by choosing by an act of their will to accept Jesus as their savior. All names start out there, and when the age of accountability is reached, many names are blotted out because of sin, and a failure to receive the free gift of salvation. For those born with a sick mind, they never reach the age of accountibility, so their names are never blotted out. For those that have never heard? Paul says that they are a law unto themselves. They will be for God to judge, and He will judge fairly..

Rev 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So a backslider won't find their name in the book of life but one who rejects Christ, those not born-again in the first place, will find their name written therein? No, those that reject Christ will have thier names blotted out.
How so? Because they did not accept the free salvation offered. Their great sin was rejecting Jesus, who is the way, and the door. Jesus blood took away the sins of the whole world. However, there is one sin that His blood did not remove: that is rejecting Jesus and His salvation. This is the only sin that will cause people's names to be blotted out. All other sins have been taken away by His blood. Remember, "Peace on earth, goodwill toward man?"

Coop

Nice platitudes aren’t they – but that’s all I would say. Where is the foundation?
You know what has happened? We (Christendom) have developed such a distorted theology based on doctrines of men that when it comes to ‘tricky’ questions like this we try and find justification for a righteous God to not send such innocents to hell.

"find justification for a righteous God to not send such innocents to hell."

Isn't the annihilationists belief the essence of this?

...

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John the baptist,

Loaded with significance?????...no, John I don't know what that significance is that you speak of. Please tell me. Show me your biblical reasoning behind your explanation as well, so I can follow along.

noble j6

****

Gods new creation [only] here on earth!

God 'breathed into his nostrils the [breath of life; and man became a living soul.]' Gen. 2:7 Does he know anything before this time?? He now became a live soul, take away the breath & what is he? DEAD!

"His [breath goeth forth], he [returneth to his earth]; in that [very day his thoughts PERISH]". Psalms 146:4 Does he know ANYTHING after this period of time, either forwards or backwards?
Absolutely NO! He has ceased to be. Compare Obadiah 1:16!!!

God stated, "Thou shalt surely die." and the serpent said, "ye shall not surely die." Gen. 2:17 & Gen. 3:4 Which do you believe? See Genesis 4:7 for Cains choice in the K.J. .

Does man have an immortal soul? Hardly! If so, which direction of eternity does it recollect?

"... who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords; [WHO *ONLY HAS IMMORTALITY], .." See all of 1 Tim. 6:14-16.

It seems that there was others here on planet earth at the time of mans creation, huh? Who was that??? Now notice what it takes for man to have [CONDITIONAL] immortality? In Genesis 3:22 we see the GodHead carrying on a conversation with themselves, yet, it is RECORDED for our understanding, if we will?

"And the Lord said, Behold man has become as one of us, to know good and evil: [AND LEAST HE PUT FORTH HIS HAND, AND TAKE ALSO OF THE TREE OF LIFE, AND EAT, AND LIVE FOREVER]:..." You can read on in verse 23-24. And we see in Rev. 22:1-2 that the saved will once again have access to the tree of CONDITIONAL IMMORTALITY"! See Na. 1:9. No open sinner will ever have access to the tree of life and have conditional immortality! Nahum 1:9

Christ said that 'He BEHELD satan AS LIGHTENING [FALL FROM HEAVEN]" Luke 10:18 And notice satans conversation in Luke 4:5-6 with Christ! You will perhaps (?) see that all [open sinners] from the beginning of earths creation, were either following Christ or they were following the ex/covering cherub that rebelled in heaven itself! Here is what is 'inspired'..

"And the devil said unto Him, All of this power will i give Thee, and the glory of them: [for that is delivered unto me: and to whomsoever i will i give it.] If Thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine." He had 'temporally' won Adams domain.

And as we read [and believe] the Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 verses, we can see the following verses below again come into play! Compare Exodus 7:11-12 for how it is ending.
REMEMBER friend the Godhead has stated that there IS NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN!!

Yes, satan was here with his first lie in the garden, and this first lie of an IMMORTAL SOUL teaching, will play an extremely important part in the Mark of the Beast ending, just before the Lord comes the second time! See 2 Thessalonians. 2:9-12! (*read verse 12 clearly!)

And:
During the 1000 millennium years doctrine which man has botched up his understanding of? earth will once again be as it was before its creation with only the devil & his crew being on earth [with all of the D-E-A-D souls with no breath of life in them!]

 

[noblej6]

hi John the baptist,

I haven't got a clue what you are getting at. Sorry

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

hi John the baptist,

I haven't got a clue what you are getting at. Sorry

noblej6

*****
Just wondering, do you read the verses posted?

 

[noblej6]

Hi JOhn the baptist,

Yes John I not only read the verses, I read the entire chapter and in most cases in the new testament I don't have to read it because I already know what the verses say.

Like you started out this conversation with Romans 8:14....

4because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Yes, so what else would you like to say about that?

Example:

God stated, "Thou shalt surely die." and the serpent said, "ye shall not surely die." Gen. 2:17 & Gen. 3:4 Which do you believe? See Genesis 4:7 for Cains choice in the K.J. .

We don't get a choice to believe one or the other in the bible John. Everything is correct.
God said Eve would die and Satan said she wouldn't. Eve didn't die the day she ate the fruit so what Satan said was correct for that meaning, so what did God mean?

It has nothing to do with choosing one to be correct and the other isn't. It is to reason thru what is meant by the whole thing.

So yes, I read all the verses you put up.

noblej6

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Potluck

Again time has been against me – I have been trying to keep a tab on other threads while also putting thought toward this one. It has been very thought provoking for me and one which I could write much on, but again, I will continue to take it piece by piece.

The first thing you would need to prove is that only Satan, his angels and backsliders are wicked and in jeopardy of being judged to eternal misery without God. Or that there are those that are not born with a sinful nature.

Let’s just lay aside the issue of Satan and his angels and dwell on the rest – since they are of who we speak...

As the scripture tells us, we are all born in sin. Man, through Adam’s sin has inherited Adams nature. When sin entered the world through Adam, God gave Adam over to death and in this way death came to all men. As it says, through Adam, all died.
Now if all died then again as the scripture tells us, it is only through Christ that man may live and be free from the power of sin (which is death). There is no argument about those who have sinned and those who haven’t. So, irrespective of the things that we have done since our physical birth – whether they are good or bad by human definition - all of mankind has been born into ‘death’ – the result of Adam’s sin. Yes we are indeed ‘dead in trespasses and sins.’

The issue though is this. Are those who are ‘dead’ in sin, judged? Or is it only those who have been given the gift of life who are judged?

So again, are all judged (in this case the parables describe all of mankind) or is it only those who have received relationship with the father who are judged. And in this case the parables describe the servants of the master, sons of the father, the wheat & tares growing in the master’s field, the sheep & the goats gathered from the king’s pasture etc

I contend it is ONLY the latter that are judged.

Now something your consideration.
Some time ago, my father - a very gracious and godly man - and I were discussing this very point by long distance phone call & letter. We live hundreds of miles apart. He was as firmly convinced as any man I know that all men are judged – that all will be sent to either heaven or hell. We entered into very intense discussion about it – something I was not particularly keen to do with him, so I said to him, “I would like you to write to me and to state your case in writing. And I would like you to support your belief with scripture,†“And,†I added – blurting it out with no forethought of issuing such a challenge, “with the very scripture you use, I will show you that not all are judged.â€Â
Nevertheless after making the challenge I felt confident that I would indeed be able to answer him as I said, since it was not something I contrived to do.

When his reply was received he quoted Romans 2, virtually the whole thing while underlining the passages that he wanted to emphasise which talked about judgement. Actually it is not unlike many - even on this forum who hold to a particular premise and quote it as though everyone else should have the same premise. Of course quoting scripture is one thing but taking it out of context is something else.

So, this is my response – not verbatim in its entirety as written to my father, but also bringing the passage into context for the sake of other readers.

Now to put something in context I ask myself, who is being addressed and what is it that relates to them and what relates to others. Of course we know that (the book of) Romans was written to Roman (Gentile) believers. The former part of chapter 2 is warning them not to judge others. Paul then goes on to say, "because of your stubborn and unrepentant hearts, you are storing up wrath for yourself for the day of Gods wrath . . ." Now clearly, this is speaking in personal way to the church. It is to those who by virtue of their calling by God, already have a relationship with Him. And since they have this relationship Paul goes to great lengths to explain to them that they will be judged for their actions.

He then goes on to broaden the scope to include every human being, both to those who do evil and to those who do good. And directly after this comes the key, because then Paul states emphatically what will happen to mankind.

From verse 12, "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles - because they are outside of the law.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They will perish.

Going on, "and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: The Jews - Gods own people because they were entrusted with the law.
Question: And what will happen to them? Answer: They will be judged.

Going on again, "For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Now here Paul make an amazing transition between those who have been given the law (the Jews), and those by virtue of their faith in God are declared righteous (this includes both Jew and Gentile.) And then Paul explains this further as he focuses on the Gentiles saying, "Indeed when Gentiles who do not have the law, do by nature the things required by the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."
Question: Who is this talking about? Answer: Gentiles who have been born again.
Question: What will happen to them? Answer: They also will be judged as the next verse avows, "This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my Gospel declares."

So summing this up:

Gentiles who sin apart from the law perish apart from the law. And let’s not forget why the law was given to Gods people. If it was not given to the Gentiles then they (the Gentiles) perish outside of it. That means they are not judged by it.

Jews who sin under the law are judged by the Law.

Jews & Gentiles who obey the law, (not because they follow the written code but since the law is written on their hearts) are declared righteous. And since it is written on their hearts their consciences accuse and defend them. And who knows the heart of man but God alone - he will judge men’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

Has this helped any in explaining my position? There are some questions you asked in your post that I still need to answer more fully - hopefully will get to that soon as time allows.

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi JOhn the baptist,

Yes John I not only read the verses, I read the entire chapter and in most cases in the new testament I don't have to read it because I already know what the verses say.

Like you started out this conversation with Romans 8:14....

4because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Yes, so what else would you like to say about that?

********
Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16's COMPLETNESS.
********

Example:

God stated, "Thou shalt surely die." and the serpent said, "ye shall not surely die." Gen. 2:17 & Gen. 3:4 Which do you believe? See Genesis 4:7 for Cains choice in the K.J. .

We don't get a choice to believe one or the other in the bible John. Everything is correct.
God said Eve would die and Satan said she wouldn't. Eve didn't die the day she ate the fruit so what Satan said was correct for that meaning, so what did God mean?

*****
John here:
Do you see where you have added anything to the verse? 'Eve didn't die the day she ate... so what 's'atan said was correct... :roll: Then, what you have done is called God a liar! What good does it do to read the Word of God when one believes the devil instead??? (no offense intended!) God does not lie, we have got to come to BELIEVE that! If we think that, then we have got to come to grips that [our understanding is at fault!]

Go to Acts 10:10-20 where we see Peter who was taught correctly in verse Acts 10:14 that God does not change 'or lie', yet even he as an apostle had trouble with [HIS UNDERSTANDING]! (and I might add that most today still see this as eating all kinds of rats, skunks, and pig, huh?)
A three time VISION, and Peter still would not trust his understanding as to what this vision sounded like? And why??? Because he BELIEVED GOD TO BEGIN WITH! Acts 10:14

And here you come along with the devil's lie thing even????
*****

It has nothing to do with choosing one to be correct and the other isn't. It is to reason thru what is meant by the whole thing.

So yes, I read all the verses you put up.

noblej6

 

[Heidi]

Hi JOhn the baptist,

Yes John I not only read the verses, I read the entire chapter and in most cases in the new testament I don't have to read it because I already know what the verses say.

Like you started out this conversation with Romans 8:14....

4because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Yes, so what else would you like to say about that?

********
Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16's COMPLETNESS.
********

Example:

God stated, "Thou shalt surely die." and the serpent said, "ye shall not surely die." Gen. 2:17 & Gen. 3:4 Which do you believe? See Genesis 4:7 for Cains choice in the K.J. .

We don't get a choice to believe one or the other in the bible John. Everything is correct.
God said Eve would die and Satan said she wouldn't. Eve didn't die the day she ate the fruit so what Satan said was correct for that meaning, so what did God mean?

*****
John here:
Do you see where you have added anything to the verse? 'Eve didn't die the day she ate... so what 's'atan said was correct... :roll: Then, what you have done is called God a liar! What good does it do to read the Word of God when one believes the devil instead??? (no offense intended!) God does not lie, we have got to come to BELIEVE that! If we think that, then we have got to come to grips that [our understanding is at fault!]

Go to Acts 10:10-20 where we see Peter who was taught correctly in verse Acts 10:14 that God does not change 'or lie', yet even he as an apostle had trouble with [HIS UNDERSTANDING]! (and I might add that most today still see this as eating all kinds of rats, skunks, and pig, huh?)
A three time VISION, and Peter still would not trust his understanding as to what this vision sounded like? And why??? Because he BELIEVED GOD TO BEGIN WITH! Acts 10:14

And here you come along with the devil's lie thing even????
*****

It has nothing to do with choosing one to be correct and the other isn't. It is to reason thru what is meant by the whole thing.

So yes, I read all the verses you put up.

noblej6

What God meant in the garden of evil is that once Eve ate the apple, then man became mortal. It didn't mean that Eve would die on the spot. :roll:

 

[lecoop]

You are missing a key to what was said. God said, if you eat, you will "die die." Yes, two dies. KIng James did not want to write that so they translated it to "surely die."

Why did God say, "die die?" Because there are two deaths: a physical death where our body ceases to function, and a spiritual death, where our spirit is cut off from God.

So what happened when Eve ate? I think nothing, for this test was given to Adam. It was not until Adam ate that they knew they were naked. It was not until Adam ate that their spirits were cut off from God. So when Adam ate, the first "die" came to pass. But as soon as the first die came to pass, the physical death started. However, God created such a marvelous human body, when death started, it still took about 900 years to accomplish!

There is yet a third death that was not mentioned in Genesis. It is when physical death comes, while at the same time, spiritual death is in existence. When these two happen together, then eternal death, or eternal separation from God comes into existence for that individual.

Coop

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi JOhn the baptist,

Yes John I not only read the verses, I read the entire chapter and in most cases in the new testament I don't have to read it because I already know what the verses say.

Like you started out this conversation with Romans 8:14....

4because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.

Yes, so what else would you like to say about that?

********
Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16's COMPLETNESS.
********

Example:

God stated, "Thou shalt surely die." and the serpent said, "ye shall not surely die." Gen. 2:17 & Gen. 3:4 Which do you believe? See Genesis 4:7 for Cains choice in the K.J. .

We don't get a choice to believe one or the other in the bible John. Everything is correct.
God said Eve would die and Satan said she wouldn't. Eve didn't die the day she ate the fruit so what Satan said was correct for that meaning, so what did God mean?

*****
John here:
Do you see where you have added anything to the verse? 'Eve didn't die the day she ate... so what 's'atan said was correct... :roll: Then, what you have done is called God a liar! What good does it do to read the Word of God when one believes the devil instead??? (no offense intended!) God does not lie, we have got to come to BELIEVE that! If we think that, then we have got to come to grips that [our understanding is at fault!]

Go to Acts 10:10-20 where we see Peter who was taught correctly in verse Acts 10:14 that God does not change 'or lie', yet even he as an apostle had trouble with [HIS UNDERSTANDING]! (and I might add that most today still see this as eating all kinds of rats, skunks, and pig, huh?)
A three time VISION, and Peter still would not trust his understanding as to what this vision sounded like? And why??? Because he BELIEVED GOD TO BEGIN WITH! Acts 10:14

And here you come along with the devil's lie thing even????
*****

It has nothing to do with choosing one to be correct and the other isn't. It is to reason thru what is meant by the whole thing.

So yes, I read all the verses you put up.

noblej6

What God meant in the garden of evil is that once Eve ate the apple, then man became mortal. It didn't mean that Eve would die on the spot. :roll:

****
Quote:Yes John I not only read the verses, I read the entire chapter and in most cases in the new testament I don't have to read it because I already know what the verses say.

John here: We are getting NO-where. 'Apple' even???? I suggest that you slow down and study the Word! 2 Timothy 3:16

I guess I best just let it rest. Perhaps these other after me 'friends' can come on the post here and you can 'believe' them? Whatever?

But you can rest assured that God will back up satan's claim with His [free will] 'permission' to [test] your very core of [professed] 'election'!!
See Matthew 24:24

And Revelation 17:5 & Matthew 7:13 finds most by far already are prepared, by already believing satan, huh?
---Take care, John

 

[Admiral]

Whoa, there, fellas....Excuse me for buttin' in....

It seems to me that you fellers are doing a lot of "you need to read the bible!" and "No, YOU need to read the bible", "NO, YOU really NEED to read the bible"

Well, gentlemen, if you guys can't settle down and show a bit better spirit, YOU BOTH NEED TO READ THE BIBLE AGAIN. :-D

Gentlemen, What is the question here?

Are you discussing if a person is alive after death? If so, isnth that like asking if there is sex after death? :

Or are you guys asking when Adam and Eve died? Well, isn't Adam's death recorded in the bible?

Or are you guys asking if death is really death? Are there degrees of dying? Are there deaths in which you are not truely dead?

Half of getting a proper answer from the bible, Gentlemen , is asking the right question....

So, what is the question you guys are trying to ask???

In fact, I suggest that you both need to write out the other person position...make sure that you are quoting your opponent correctly and not make ANY distortions....Otherwise, we can claim that you are not attempting to let the bible settle your differences and that would be evidence of your not be truely commition to Jesus. Because gentlemen, all you are currently doing is allowing your sinfill natures get in the way of finding out what the bible truely has to say...

 

[mutzrein]

Whoa, there, fellas....Excuse me for buttin' in....

It seems to me that you fellers are doing a lot of "you need to read the bible!" and "No, YOU need to read the bible", "NO, YOU really NEED to read the bible"

Well, gentlemen, if you guys can't settle down and show a bit better spirit, YOU BOTH NEED TO READ THE BIBLE AGAIN. :-D

Gentlemen, What is the question here?

Are you discussing if a person is alive after death? If so, isnth that like asking if there is sex after death? :

Or are you guys asking when Adam and Eve died? Well, isn't Adam's death recorded in the bible?

Or are you guys asking if death is really death? Are there degrees of dying? Are there deaths in which you are not truely dead?

Half of getting a proper answer from the bible, Gentlemen , is asking the right question....

So, what is the question you guys are trying to ask???

In fact, I suggest that you both need to write out the other person position...make sure that you are quoting your opponent correctly and not make ANY distortions....Otherwise, we can claim that you are not attempting to let the bible settle your differences and that would be evidence of your not be truely commition to Jesus. Because gentlemen, all you are currently doing is allowing your sinfill natures get in the way of finding out what the bible truely has to say...

In essence it is this:

The 'Givens' are my interpretation of what is commonly accepted / preached by Christendom. Of course not everyone on this forum accepts them as per Christendom's interpretation. That also is a 'given'

Given - God is righteous.
Given - Jesus said the only way for man to see or enter the kingdom of heaven is to be born again.
Given - 'Christendom' says that if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.
Given - There have been / are many who through no fault of their own have not heard the gospel, let alone heard of Jesus.

So, the question is, do these 'innocents' go to hell since they are not born again, or . . . what happens to them?

 

[Heidi]

Whoa, there, fellas....Excuse me for buttin' in....

It seems to me that you fellers are doing a lot of "you need to read the bible!" and "No, YOU need to read the bible", "NO, YOU really NEED to read the bible"

Well, gentlemen, if you guys can't settle down and show a bit better spirit, YOU BOTH NEED TO READ THE BIBLE AGAIN. :-D

Gentlemen, What is the question here?

Are you discussing if a person is alive after death? If so, isnth that like asking if there is sex after death? :

Or are you guys asking when Adam and Eve died? Well, isn't Adam's death recorded in the bible?

Or are you guys asking if death is really death? Are there degrees of dying? Are there deaths in which you are not truely dead?

Half of getting a proper answer from the bible, Gentlemen , is asking the right question....

So, what is the question you guys are trying to ask???

In fact, I suggest that you both need to write out the other person position...make sure that you are quoting your opponent correctly and not make ANY distortions....Otherwise, we can claim that you are not attempting to let the bible settle your differences and that would be evidence of your not be truely commition to Jesus. Because gentlemen, all you are currently doing is allowing your sinfill natures get in the way of finding out what the bible truely has to say...

In essence it is this:

The 'Givens' are my interpretation of what is commonly accepted / preached by Christendom. Of course not everyone on this forum accepts them as per Christendom's interpretation. That also is a 'given'

Given - God is righteous.
Given - Jesus said the only way for man to see or enter the kingdom of heaven is to be born again.
Given - 'Christendom' says that if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.
Given - There have been / are many who through no fault of their own have not heard the gospel, let alone heard of Jesus.

So, the question is, do these 'innocents' go to hell since they are not born again, or . . . what happens to them?

This question has been anserwed over & over again. First of all, no one is innocent. "For all fall short of the glory of God." Jesus explains that those who haven't heard his word will be beaten with few blows. That means they will not go to heaven because heaven is life with Christ. Once a person receives the Holy Spirit, he knows what heaven is. Only the Holy Spirit is eternal, not the flesh. Therefore, no one who is not born again can go to heaven and there is no other place but hell. The bible only gives us 2 options, which people have explained to you over & ogver again. If you don't like it, then making up another option doesn't make your option feasible because none of us makes the decisions of the universe. :wink:

 

[John the Baptist]

There is no one that the Spirit of God does not STRIVE with. (don't get hung up with a Christians responsibility) God even know's what the decision of the aborted would make, if they had lived! See the book in Psalm 139:15-16.

But back to the knowing ones & the ignorant ones! Luke 12:47-48
finds all here included. Genesis 6:3 (K.J.) finds the Holy Ghost missing no one!

Romans 2:14-15 finds [the work of God] created in what 'some' call ignorant people? Yet, these ones found the 'striving' of the Holy Spirit without the aid of us know it all's, huh? Remember, even nature has been messed up with satan's evil work, but still the Creator was found in it, and by it! (so even us know it all have some credence if totally sincere)

Were these Born Again? Surely! How can you tell? Only if you have been Born Again 'me' thinks. :fadein:

---John

 

[Admiral]

In essence it is this:

The 'Givens' are my interpretation of what is commonly accepted / preached by Christendom. Of course not everyone on this forum accepts them as per Christendom's interpretation. That also is a 'given'

Given - God is righteous.
Given - Jesus said the only way for man to see or enter the kingdom of heaven is to be born again.
Given - 'Christendom' says that if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.
Given - There have been / are many who through no fault of their own have not heard the gospel, let alone heard of Jesus.

So, the question is, do these 'innocents' go to hell since they are not born again, or . . . what happens to them?

Welllll, my answer is that it depends :roll:


upon who your God is........ :roll:

If your God is more righteous than merciful, then perhaps your answer/reaction is going to be more judgemental....If you know your God as more merciful, perhaps you will react/your answer will be more merciful....

IOWs, if you are more stict in your answers about the bible, if you're looking for more black and white answers, then problably you are looking for more judgement...
If that is the case, I can see then where your God would be more easily toppled, more vunerable and so high on a pedistle that no one can asses Him when He is needed.

If your God is more mercifu, then God is more of a person who does everything He can to make sure that anyone who desires Him, will find Him , even getting into the filth of the world and getting His hands dirty, just to save you...figuratively speaking. That also implys that there will be some grey areas where you are not sure about. Things like the aborted children, saved or not? What about Jonathon and David , from the bible? He never knew Jesus, and he is not on the list of people of renown in Hebrews....Is he saved? Those are questions that, because you trust God, you tend to let Him decide....

Does that answer your question?

 

[mutzrein]

In essence it is this:

The 'Givens' are my interpretation of what is commonly accepted / preached by Christendom. Of course not everyone on this forum accepts them as per Christendom's interpretation. That also is a 'given'

Given - God is righteous.
Given - Jesus said the only way for man to see or enter the kingdom of heaven is to be born again.
Given - 'Christendom' says that if you don't go to heaven, you go to hell.
Given - There have been / are many who through no fault of their own have not heard the gospel, let alone heard of Jesus.

So, the question is, do these 'innocents' go to hell since they are not born again, or . . . what happens to them?

Welllll, my answer is that it depends :roll:


upon who your God is........ :roll:

If your God is more righteous than merciful, then perhaps your answer/reaction is going to be more judgemental....If you know your God as more merciful, perhaps you will react/your answer will be more merciful....

IOWs, if you are more stict in your answers about the bible, if you're looking for more black and white answers, then problably you are looking for more judgement...
If that is the case, I can see then where your God would be more easily toppled, more vunerable and so high on a pedistle that no one can asses Him when He is needed.

If your God is more mercifu, then God is more of a person who does everything He can to make sure that anyone who desires Him, will find Him , even getting into the filth of the world and getting His hands dirty, just to save you...figuratively speaking. That also implys that there will be some grey areas where you are not sure about. Things like the aborted children, saved or not? What about Jonathon and David , from the bible? He never knew Jesus, and he is not on the list of people of renown in Hebrews....Is he saved? Those are questions that, because you trust God, you tend to let Him decide....

Does that answer your question?

Perhaps you should tell me what my God is then - and it's probably buried in a myriad of posts on this and other threads.

But in a nutshell.

My God does not send those who have not been afforded a relationship with Him (by virtue of His calling) to eternal torment in hell.

How does that sound?

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

Did Eve physically die the day she ate the fruit?


noblej6

 

[noblej6]

Hi Forum,

I forget what people had to say about Mother Teresa being saved because she would not have ever said she was 'born again.'

Let's see some more on that one.

noblej6

 

[mutzrein]

Hi Forum,

I forget what people had to say about Mother Teresa being saved because she would not have ever said she was 'born again.'

Let's see some more on that one.

noblej6

noblej6

And the reason I asked whether your belief was a Catholic one - or whether it was something you believed outside of the Catholic Church - was to try to determine whether Catholics actually believe that it is necessary to be born again or not (while alive in the flesh). Now if I can find a catholic who believes that they are born again (and they are alive to say so) how can you say that a person who has passed away never did. Otherwise, perhaps you have a statement attributed to Mother Theresa in which she says she would not be born again until after she dies. And even if she did, making such a statement does not make it truth.

 

[noblej6]

Hi mutzrein,

Here is a quote from a RC website............

Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again."

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again."

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been savedâ€â€"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible.

So what I say is that the term 'born again' isn't used by Catholics in usual conversation.

I'll try to explain my concern here another way.

I see this 'born again' expression as used by certain evangelicals as taking on much different meaning than what the bible says. It is starting to be a reference to certain protestant churches who put all this emphasis on the 'born again' experience. It is common now to hint that only these 'born again' talking churches can offer salvation and that is the part that isn't true.

I take the stand that the 'born again' of John 3:3 is meaning the true 'born again' which is the dying of the earthly body and the being reborn a spiritual being/body. As you read the verses of John 3 you can see the possibility of that. I don't disagree that the possibility of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit isn't a possibility either. AND the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the same as your 'born again' meaning as I understand it.

So as I have said before, I just say the meaning of 'born again' is being seriously stretched into something it never was.

noblej6