Bible Study Do those not born-again go to Hell

[mutzrein]

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

No idea.

There is no scriptural basis for Christendom to believe that man has an 'eternal' spirit or soul. Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). The unrighteous are NEVER given immortality since they are doomed to die (be anihilated). They perish (John 3:16). Check out 'perish' as used in this (and other texts pertaining to the destruction of the wicked) and you'll find the Greek 'apollumi'. The definition of this word is 'to destroy fully'. There is no eternal life for the unrighteous, no matter how badly the traditionalists want this to be true. This is nothing more than a Catholic myth that is cherished by most protestants and defended almost to the death ...um, please excuse the pun.

Fair crack of the whip mate - that'll stir the pot a bit.

Thanks

 

[John the Baptist]

This verse was posted in your [post] Potluck. It seems that we need to understand how one see's dead standing, yet having been judged lost already?? You are thinking that the wicked are going to be in heaven for a time??

I believe that they are judged by books. When Christ comes He says that he will bring His reward with Him. Both are judged either saved or lost. (1 Peter 4:17) Then comes the judgement by the record books as for the duration, or the punishment stage of all of these lost ones. Luke 12:47-48. This executional stage of judgement goes on during the 1000 that all the wicked ARE DEAD. See 1 Corinthians 6:2-3 & Ecclesiastes 12:13-14 & Daniel 7:9-10 & Revelation 20:12-14.

I do not believe that the wicked will ever again be in heaven! (only by record books, for eternities eternal library study of what God had & has paid for the salvation of man, & that They are justified in their ending of sin & sinners. Obadiah 1:16)

Your posted verse says:
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And about all of these 'spirit' suggestions??? I cannot buy any of this without clear 'identity' being stated. It seems that what might be needed by me is a recollection in my mind (spirit? whatever) of before birth & after death, otherwise I am a pretty dumb spirit. :wink: Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
& Ecclesiastes 3:19-20.

This 'spirit' thing to me, suggests Revelation 16:13-14 & 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12's final flurry by satan, as our time is now in it's final steps for earths ending. He started out in the Garden of Eden with a lie that one does not die, and according to Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 there is NOTHING NEW, huh?

---John

****
Just a PS Potluck on this:
I believe that Adam was created & laid out physically, yet, what was he lacking? You say an eternal soul??? I still don't see anything that sounds like that.

My K.J. on Genesis 2:7 has it Inspired this way...
"And the Lord God [formed man] of the dust of the ground, and [breathed into his nostrils the breath of life]; and man [became a living soul]."
Gods breathed His breath it says, and the man [became a living soul].

It took two things after Adam was layed out, or formed physically to bring life, right? when the breath leaves, what is man? Seems to me that he is now a dead soul? That is not confusing is it??

Job 14:14-15 says that .."If a man die, (no breath!) shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time [will I wait, til my change come]. Thou shalt call and I will answer Thee: .."

And verse 21? Job 14:21 "His sons come to honor, and [he knoweth it not] and they are brought low, but [he perceiveth it not of them]."
Again, it seems that this 'living soul' has died??

And the 'breath' as in Ecclesiastes 3:19-20? We all have one breath, beasts & us'ins!

 

[noblej6]

'
Hi Forum,

Please correct me if I am wrong, Christendom believes that man is born with an ‘eternal’ spirit. ie it is the part of man that never dies so after death it the spirit of man that is judged & sent to heaven or hell.

I lost track of who wrote that, but that is the proper understanding as I see it.

I'm curious about this statement by John the baptist,

I do not believe that the wicked will ever again be in heaven!

What verses do you use to say that the wicked have ever been close to Heaven?

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

'
Hi Forum,

Please correct me if I am wrong, Christendom believes that man is born with an ‘eternal’ spirit. ie it is the part of man that never dies so after death it the spirit of man that is judged & sent to heaven or hell.

I lost track of who wrote that, but that is the proper understanding as I see it.

I'm curious about this statement by John the baptist,

[quote:71994]I do not believe that the wicked will ever again be in heaven!

What verses do you use to say that the wicked have ever been close to Heaven?

noblej6[/quote:71994]


****
"Come, let us reason together sayeth the Lord."

"What, fellowship does righteousness have with un/righteousness?"

Satan and 1/3 of heaven rebelled & were cast out!

Sin on earth originated with Adam. No sinner or saved one has any 'soul' that is immortal. The Godhead alone are immortal! All the evil created ones after sin would need either Angels food, Tree of life + the righteousness of Christ which Adam lost after sinning. That is [some more] of the Matt. 4:4 required food.

Bottom line: None of these above have such, nor do the finally saved ones as of yet either! (read Genesis 3:22's last part of the verse in the K.J.) Conditional immortality is 'again' given at the second coming of Christ! (see the K.J. in Revelation 22:2)
That is the reward that He brings with Him for the ones who have DIED IN THE FAITH & the ones who ar living that LOVE HIS APPEARING! :fadein:
I know that there are many scriptural verses for this, but I am a little tired this time of day. :wink:

But of the 'spirit thing' that you ask about? And yes, that is a mainstream belief of the Revelation 17:1-5 ones! This verse alone should tell you the bottom line of that false doctrine! What reason do you see for the BOLD CAPS?
Or the LAST MIDNIGHT CRY CALL of the few that are 'still' there in LOVING 'Yoked' membership ignorance? See Revelation 18:4 (again in the K.J.)

Of course, this group (fold) still knowingly follow the error of the one in Daniel 7:25, and come up with all of the devils WINDS of doctrine as seen in Jude to dis/prove God's Word!! Read just this forum here on the Eternal Covenant of the Godhead? Hebrews 13:20.
And then check the last verses of WARNING to all of us in Revelation 22:18-19. Then see Obadiah 1:16 for their ending, and yes, NOTICE where the Rev. verse stated that their name was ONCE located?!

Hope this helps some.

---John

 

[mutzrein]

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

No idea.

There is no scriptural basis for Christendom to believe that man has an 'eternal' spirit or soul. Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). The unrighteous are NEVER given immortality since they are doomed to die (be anihilated). They perish (John 3:16). Check out 'perish' as used in this (and other texts pertaining to the destruction of the wicked) and you'll find the Greek 'apollumi'. The definition of this word is 'to destroy fully'. There is no eternal life for the unrighteous, no matter how badly the traditionalists want this to be true. This is nothing more than a Catholic myth that is cherished by most protestants and defended almost to the death ...um, please excuse the pun.

Just a follow-on from this post of yours SputnikBoy.

You may have mentioned this elsewhere but to save me the search can I clarify something you said, which was, "Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54)." Do you not see being 'Born Again' as being synonymous with immortality - not physical of course, but spiritual - or do you see being 'born again' as something that happens when Christ returns?

Regards

 

[noblej6]

Hi JOhn the Baptist,

No sinner or saved one has any 'soul' that is immortal.

Okay, so you don't like the term 'immortal soul.' That is a term we use to describe the spiritual body concept of 1 Cor 15 I guess. However, here I've been complaining about the use of 'born again' so I best be understanding about the 'immortal soul' reference.

I don't know what the proper term would be to explain the immortal spiritual body that comes after the earthly natural body. I know that if there is a natural body there is ALSO a spiritual body ...ALSO meaning what??/besides the earthly body? in addition to the earthly body? as a part of the earthly body? it's easier for me to think of it as the immortal soul.

I agree with you that the immortality is recieved at the second coming, but that judgment can be 'life' or we may be raised to be condemned. I gather that you feel Hell is not eternal and I hope you are right, but biblically I would say if you're in Hell, you're in for the long haul.

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

Please check these all in the K.J. And lets start again with man at the Gen. fact? (compare heavens Ezekiel 28:15) God created Adam lifeless [until] He breathed into his [nostrils] the [Breath of life]. Then he became a living soul. Immortal? Naw, he just started life at that time! True Immortality means that he had always been! (As God) This is conditional Eternal life as was also previously given in Revelation 22:1-2 that all mankind lost with Adam's sin, as explained by God (Two of the Godhead) in Genesis 3:22) And even the animals have the breath of life as my earlier verses stated. Ecclesiastes 3:19 Or the 'spirit' as is seen interchangeable in this inspired writter's 'penned' term in verse 21.

Then man [became a living soul]. No where is it given in the Word of God that any of the Godhead created life (in heaven + other world) haveing a 'soul' that is immortal! Conditional eternal life? Surely! But only the Godhead has ETERNALLY been. They are, and that is what true Immortally is!!

Surely we do not believe the 'devils' first lie to Eve do we? 'Ye shall not truely die' Genesis 3:4 One best make sure that they are teaching the truth. Which way is it? See the last verses of Revelation22:18-19! And take note that these ones had their names written in the Book of Life at one time!!. In other words, they had at one time been Born Again!!

Compare the Obadiah 1:16's verse for eternities complete time with a starting point, as you use it? compare it to the opposite of the saved ones with eternal life from when on? Only from the time that they were Born, er.. Born Again or not Born Again! And even then, there is seen from these Born Again ones a CONDITIONAL ETERNAL COVENANT AGREEMENT! Hebrews 13:20

---John

 

[MrVersatile48]

Jesus warned, in several ways, in Matthew 13, that Hell is eternal, conscious torment - as confirmed in Revelation 20

Timely Word 4 Today from http://www.arcamax.com here:-



Today's Scripture

Fear the Lord and Live!

Only be careful, and watch yourselves closely so that you do not forget the things your eyes have seen or let them slip from your heart as long as you live. Teach them to your children and to their children after them.

Remember the day you stood before the LORD your God at Horeb, when he said to me, "Assemble the people before me to hear my words so that they may learn to revere (fear) me as long as they live in the land and may teach them to their children."

Deuteronomy 4:9,10 NIV

_______________________

Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart. And what cause soever shall come to you of your brethren that dwell in your cities, between blood and blood, between law and commandment, statutes and judgments, ye shall even warn them that they trespass not against the LORD, and so wrath come upon you, and upon your brethren: this do, and ye shall not trespass.

2 Chronicles 19:8,9 KJV

______________________

The precepts of the LORD are right,
rejoicing the heart;

The commandment of the LORD is pure,
enlightening the eyes;

The fear of the LORD is clean,
enduring for ever;

The ordinances of the LORD are true,
and righteous altogether.

More to be desired are they than gold,
even much fine gold;
sweeter also than honey
and drippings of the honeycomb.

Psalm 19:8-10 RSV

__________________

Thanks be unto God for His wonderful gift:
Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God
is the object of our faith; the only faith
that saves is faith in Him.

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Weekly Meditation

My Soul Thirsts for Thee

O God, you are my God;
earnestly I seek you;
my soul thirsts for you;
my flesh faints for you,
as in a dry and weary land
where there is no water.

So I have looked upon you in the sanctuary,
beholding your power and glory.

Because your steadfast love is better than life,
my lips will praise you.

So I will bless you as long as I live;
in your name I will lift up my hands.

Psalm 63:1-4 ESV

 

[John the Baptist]

Jesus warned, in several ways, in Matthew 13, that Hell is eternal, conscious torment - as confirmed in Revelation 20

****
Hi, John here:
Surely, hell's [END] (see James 1:15) finds one eternally gone! The Word which is Christ, is also the Word of Obadiah 1:16 right?

And surely it is an executive (execution not lethal injection) torment, one will suffer according to ones sins! See Luke 12:47-48 for Christ's Word also. Beaten with either many or few strips means what??
The devil will burn the longest! All of the false minister's of Revelation 17:5 surely will suffer more also!

And Rev 20?? It is called the second death! Does one die in the first D-E-A-T-H? Surely! The second death finds one GONE for Eternity as Obadiah documents. As though they had NEVER BEEN. : What does that mean???
****

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

God created Adam lifeless [until] He breathed into his [nostrils] the [Breath of life]. Then he became a living soul. Immortal? Naw, he just started life at that time!

As we said before immortality isn't here in this earthly life, it becomes available in the spiritual life.

This gets confusing for sure...A mortal is a person such as you or I who physically lives on planet earth. You and I will both physically die some day so therefore we are not immortal. It has nothing to do with what we were two hundred years ago, it just means we can and will physically die and therefore we are mortal, not immortal.

When someone is referred to as a living soul or a merry old soul that is not talking about any immortal soul, that is just another way of saying he is a person.

What we mean when we talk of an immortal soul is the inner self or the inward identity which lives on after physical death. The physical body returns to the dust and the spirit/immortal soul/inner self/spiritual body the whatever returns to the God who gave it.

True Immortality means that he had always been!

Actually not as I have ever heard. Immortality doesn't require always being incapable of dying at all. Immortality comes at the second coming experience and as I understand it may mean eternity in Heaven or it can mean eternity in Hell. As far as Hell is concerned I don't know if the wicked pass away into oblivion or if they are concious of torment and I don't want to know.

This is conditional Eternal life as was also previously given in Revelation 22:1-2 that all mankind lost with Adam's sin

Yes, but here is the great divide.

My guess is that you feel Adam was going to physically live in that garden forever, just like he was doing when he met Eve . You feel Adam would still be physically alive today still naming the birds if he would have left that fruit alone....I don't think so. What Adam lost by that sin was the immortal soul of afterlife. When Adam finally physically died, that was it. Adam lay in the dirt aware of absolutely nothing.
When Jesus gave the ultimate sacrifice and did His work, He regained that concious pleasant feeling of total peace after physical death which we call the living on of the immortal soul. After Jesus made the sacrifice and destroyed His enemies that peace after death was regained for all who physically die while believing in Him. No longer do people who physically die have to sleep in the dust aware of nothing. The believers enjoy, thru the immortal soul that lives on, the heavenly afterlife.

Surely we do not believe the 'devils' first lie to Eve do we? 'Ye shall not truely die'

Actually the devil didn't lie to her. She ate the fruit and she did not die. She lived many years before she physically died. BUT she physically died and died again because the eternal spiritual life was the thing that was gone. She lost the right to eternal heavenly life after physical earthly death.

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

You say:
"As we said before immortality isn't here in this earthly life, it becomes [available in the spiritual life.]

This gets confusing for sure...A mortal is a person such as you or I who physically lives on planet earth. You and I will both physically die some day so therefore we are not immortal. It has nothing to do with what we were two hundred years ago, it just means we can and will physically die and therefore we are mortal, not immortal."
******

John here:
What are you saying??? I thought that you said that we are an eternal soul???
You need to come to grips with this before anything else it read by me. Are you saying that the devil did not lie?, huh? :

 

[SputnikBoy]

And lastly before I come back and look at the questions you gave to me. The question I asked in my last post to you was - on the basis that man has an ‘eternal’ spirit, do you know how anihilationsists reconcile what happens to it at annihilation.

No idea.

There is no scriptural basis for Christendom to believe that man has an 'eternal' spirit or soul. Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54). The unrighteous are NEVER given immortality since they are doomed to die (be anihilated). They perish (John 3:16). Check out 'perish' as used in this (and other texts pertaining to the destruction of the wicked) and you'll find the Greek 'apollumi'. The definition of this word is 'to destroy fully'. There is no eternal life for the unrighteous, no matter how badly the traditionalists want this to be true. This is nothing more than a Catholic myth that is cherished by most protestants and defended almost to the death ...um, please excuse the pun.

Just a follow-on from this post of yours SputnikBoy.

You may have mentioned this elsewhere but to save me the search can I clarify something you said, which was, "Immortality is given ONLY to the righteous at the time of Christ's coming and not before (1 Corinthians 15:53-54)." Do you not see being 'Born Again' as being synonymous with immortality - not physical of course, but spiritual - or do you see being 'born again' as something that happens when Christ returns?

Regards

Hi mutzrein. I seem to feel that I owe you another response to one of your posts on another thread. I'm not sure where that is since a week or so has gone by. Hmmm . . .

Anyway, I believe that being 'born again' is certainly related to immortality for that 'born again' person. However, I believe that immortality is only REALIZED at the time of the resurrection or at the time of Christ's coming.

Incidentally, as alluded to on another thread, Broadband as supplied by aapt (a New Zealand company?) is $29:90 per month here. I'm not sure if any excess of downloads bumps it up considerably. I guess I'll soon find out!

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

John here:
What are you saying??? I thought that you said that we are an eternal soul???
You need to come to grips with this before anything else it read by me. Are you saying that the devil did not lie?, huh?

I said every person has an immortal soul. I then said I can't even come close to describing what an immortal soul really is, hence the inner selfs, the inner persons stuff and so on. I can't describe it.
1 Cor 15 tells us that if there is a natural body there is ALSO a spiritual body, it also tells us that the spiritual body is AFTER the natural earthly body. Then Paul tells us that after our body on earthi is destroyed we go to an eternal body in Heaven. That is what I call the immortal soul. So I don't think it would be right to say we ARE an eternal soul, I think it would be better to say we have an eternal soul.

Depends on how you want to look at the devil's statment to Eve. She didn't physically die when she ate the fruit so technically the devil never lied to her.
The way you see it is that she spiritually died when she ate the fruit and my interpretation is that she 'died' as in not achieving eternal life after her earthly physical life was over.

In my interpretation which again is that the origonal sin lost the eternal heavenly afterlife for mankind, then the cross and Jesus destroying the enemies, regained for us what Adam lost. From Christs generation on Heaven was made available to believers.

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

Does the spiritual mind control the carnal body, or does the carnal body control the spiritual mind? Romans 8:14

Eve didn't die??? :roll:
---John

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the Baptist,

Does the spiritual mind control the carnal body, or does the carnal body control the spiritual mind? Romans 8:14

What are you trying to get at here John?

Eve didn't die???

When she ate the fruit, John, when she ate the fruit.

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John the Baptist,

Does the spiritual mind control the carnal body, or does the carnal body control the spiritual mind? Romans 8:14

What are you trying to get at here John?

[quote:19794]Eve didn't die???

When she ate the fruit, John, when she ate the fruit.

noblej6[/quote:19794]
______
Well then, go very s-l-o-w-l-y & tell me why the Tree of Life was guarded?
--John

 

[Heidi]

Hi John the Baptist,

Does the spiritual mind control the carnal body, or does the carnal body control the spiritual mind? Romans 8:14

What are you trying to get at here John?

[quote:d36f2]Eve didn't die???

When she ate the fruit, John, when she ate the fruit.

noblej6

______
Well then, go very s-l-o-w-l-y & tell me why the Tree of Life was guarded?
--John[/quote:d36f2]

Galatians 5:16, "So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature....The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual impurity, immorality, impurity, and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft: hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy:drunkeness, orgies, and the like."

2 Corinthians 10:5, "...and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ."

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the baptist,

Well then, go very s-l-o-w-l-y & tell me why the Tree of Life was guarded?

So Adam couldn't get back to it?????

So what is the significance here?

noblej6

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi John the baptist,

Well then, go very s-l-o-w-l-y & tell me why the Tree of Life was guarded?

So Adam couldn't get back to it?????

So what is the significance here?

noblej6

******
You don't know? The verse is loaded with significance

 

[noblej6]

Hi John the baptist,

Loaded with significance?????...no, John I don't know what that significance is that you speak of. Please tell me. Show me your biblical reasoning behind your explanation as well, so I can follow along.

noble j6