Bible Study Do we love the truth!

[GodsGrace]

The concept of eternal security has at it's core the precept that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost (i.e., completely and forever) those who come to God through Him because He always lives to make intercession for them (Heb 7:25). Those of us who have rested all our hope in Christ do not see any possible future circumstances that would convince us to turn away from Christ and forsake Him.

This implies that you know the future.
Do you?

Those that walk away from God do so for a reason.
You haven't lived your entire life yet.

IF there is a possibility to turn away from God,,,,which the NT does acknowledge that there is...

Then don't you feel it's a bit dangerous telling persons that they CANNOT fall away?


Hebrews 7:23-25
23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
The above is just saying that we don't need many priests anymore because we have one Priest that will never die, so He will be our priest forever.
Do you understand - I assume you do - that in the OT a priest was necessary to forgive sins?
And so a priest is necessary today to forgive sin...
that Priest is Jesus....no physical death for Him,,,,we only need ONE Priest from then on.
So He can save forever....
So He could save until the end of time anyone that wishes to be saved.
Because He will always be "alive" to make intercession for them.

NOT
Jesus saves forever anyone that draws near to God.

If your understanding of Hebrews 7:25 were correct,
how would you explain the following?

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Many more....
Is the NT in conflict with itself?

This is not because we trust in ourselves to endure or to overcome. We believe we will endure and overcome because we believe that Jesus is protecting us from every enemy that would seek to snatch us out of His hand.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” (Jn 10:27–30)​

Correct.
No one will snatch you from the love of God.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him....
My verses above show that it is possible to stop following Him.

 

[Tenchi]

Could you repeat that last sentence?
Are you speaking of Jesus?
Sorry, just got here.

Are you saying the MESSAGE is different than the MESSENGER....
IN HIS CASE....

Yup. Exactly. A statement of truth is not identical to the Ultimate Source of All Truth, who is God. They're inter-related but not synonymous, which seems to me very evident.

How can you be SURE you'll be saved in the future?

Because I'm saved right now.
Because I'm saved by the Savior, not by myself.
Because I have the promise of God's word and the "downpayment" of the Holy Spirit dwelling within me.

The bible teaches that we are to ABIDE in our Lord and thus in our faith.
It teaches that we should not FALL AWAY from out faith.

Well, I think it is often wrongly assumed that "fall away" always means "lose your salvation." But I don't think so. Instead, more often than not, what one falls away from is fellowship with God, not relationship with Him, from the benefits of that fellowship, from the spiritual "Promised Land" of life in Jesus deriving from one's "new birth," not from salvation itself. Like the Israelites in Numbers 13-14, there is a spiritual Promised Land "overflowing with milk and honey" that every born-again person has in Jesus, but because of ignorance, faithlessness and self-will, they wander in the scrub brush and dust of a spiritual wilderness instead. But just as God continued with His faithless Chosen People in the wilderness, He continues with His adopted children, too, though they have "fallen away" from all of what is theirs in their Savior.

There is no one who seeks God entirely on their own (Romans 3:10-11). We are all of us too steeped in sin, too blinded, deafened and hardened in sin, to turn to Christ unaided (Titus 3:3, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 1:21). The Holy Spirit must act to convict us (John 16:8), draw us (John 6:44) and give us the ability to repent (2 Timothy 2:25) if we have any hope of being saved. The Spirit's "ministry" to us continues after we've chosen to trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord. He makes a "temple" of us, spiritually regenerates us, and in himself provides to us all we need to abide and persevere in the faith. See: 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9-16, Colossians 3:1-4, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 4:13, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Ephesians 3:16, etc.

There is no one, then, who endures to the end who does so apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. He is the Power Source for all Christian living, not our human willpower, not the greatness of our faith, not our ability to remain committed to God. So, then, any believer who does persevere in the faith to their death cannot take to themselves the glory for doing so, or the responsibility; it is only the life and work of the Holy Spirit that produces such perseverance.

What does it mean, then, to endure to the end? If what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit is true (which it is), it means that the Holy Spirit will do as God's word has promised he will do in the life of every born-again "new creature in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 5:22-23; Galatians 5:16, 25). Really, he is the One who, in the believer, perseveres. He is the "earnest" of the believer's redemption (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14), the "downpayment" of their future life in God's eternal, heavenly kingdom. He will "never leave nor forsake" those in whom he dwells (Hebrews 13:5), his life "springing up" in the believer in an everlasting degree (John 4:14; John 7:38-39; John 3:16; Luke 18:30).

WHERE do you see in the NT written that we are SAVED forever because we accepted Jesus at some point in our lives?

See above.

Also:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

1 John 5:11-13
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And so on.

Where does it say, exactly, that we are to accept Jesus?

It is implicit in one's acceptance of the Gospel that one accepts Jesus as he is declared to be - Creator, Lord and Savior - in the Good News of salvation in him (Romans 10:9-10). And so, upon a person's acceptance of Jesus as the Gospel reveals him to be, Scripture says they receive him (in the Person of the Holy Spirit) into their self.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Revelation 3:20
20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

1 Corinthians 2:12
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God [the Spirit of Christ - Romans 8:9], so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

Colossians 2:6
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,

Continued below.

 

[Tenchi]

If we accept Jesus NOW
and forsake Him in the future....
we can still be saved?

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Anyone who walks away from God has never really known Him as their Father. The Church today is crammed full of folk of this kind, false converts, nominal "believers," participating illegitimately in the spiritual activity of the Church, who have never had an actual experience of the life and work of the Spirit within them. This is the sort of person in view in Hebrews 6:4-8. They have been told to do Christian things which will prove they are born-again children of God. But this is entirely false, the great danger of this mistaken thinking illustrated in those who walk away from God believing they've plumbed the depths of Christian experience and found nothing at its core but emotionalism and religious ritual.

There are those, though, who are genuinely born-again children of God who, like the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), end up in the "pigpen" of sin, having wandered from their heavenly Father into a "far country." Fouled and starving spiritually, they finally look up from the mire of the pigpen and say, "I will go to my father." Only sons (and daughters) do this, however, never the pigs, who quite enjoy the mire. And when the prodigal child of God returns to their heavenly Father in an attitude of humble repentance, sickly and filthy though they may be, He runs out to meet them, (James 4:8) and gathers them into His arms rejoicing (James 4:10; 1 Peter 5:6).

Some would like to think that such believers have sinned themselves out of their salvation. Of course, where the line is between in and out of salvation no one can say. But Christ's words echo in our ears:

Matthew 5:48
48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

The one wanting to say that the Prodigal-like believer has lost their salvation, in the light of this impossible standard Christ pronounced, is just as much in jeopardy of lost salvation as the prodigal believer they want to condemn. If perfection is the standard, all of us are Prodigals in the pigpen! Which is what Scripture says (Romans 3:10-11, 23, Titus 3:3, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.). No one can meet God's standard; no one can live in such a way as to satisfy God's demand for perfection. Who, then, can be saved by their efforts, by their good works, by their power of endurance? No one.

And so, we need someone to save us. Christ, in fact, the perfect "Lamb of God"; who, by being perfect for us and sharing with us his perfection, rescues us from ourselves. But this eliminates us from the equation of our salvation, placing the entire onus for our redemption upon Christ. Thus, God's word says,

Acts 4:12
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

If faith saves....
How does NOT having faith in a possible future still save?

Faith doesn't save. The object of our faith saves: Jesus Christ. See above.

 

[donadams]

I don't know anything about any creeds.

Is that not a profession of faith in Christ?

 

[JLB]

Is that not a profession of faith in Christ?

Confessing Jesus Christ as LORD is what initiates salvation.

Living in obedience to Him as LORD is how we continue in the faith.


I don't see any mention of "creeds" in scripture.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Brother, please focus on what Jesus taught, and pay little attention to man made creeds, man made rituals or covenants.

You life depends on it.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Do you believe you are saved?

How in light of Jn 15:4 and Matt 24:13

Do saved men need to pray and watch? Yo practice virtue? Beatitudes?

Yes. I am saved. I abide in Christ. I will endure to the end. I watch and pray. The law's requirements for righteousness are fulfilled in me. All these things are true for me because Jesus lives in me.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

This implies that you know the future.
Do you?

I know who holds my future in His hand and I trust Him.

Those that walk away from God do so for a reason.
You haven't lived your entire life yet.

I agree with you. I know several people who have walked away from Christianity. Though I am not qualified to make a definitive statement about their salvation (because only God knows their hearts), it is wholey understandable that if they do not believe now, then they never believed.

Infant baptism forces Catholics to believe that true Christians can chose to forsake Christ because it is obvious that many people who were baptized as infants grow up to be unbelievers. But I have no beliefs that force me into accepting the notion that it is possible for me to lose my salvation.

IF there is a possibility to turn away from God,,,,which the NT does acknowledge that there is...

Then don't you feel it's a bit dangerous telling persons that they CANNOT fall away?

I don't tell anyone that they cannot fall away. But I can say for a certainty that God has given us eternal life, that life exists in His son, that anyone who has the Son living in His heart has the life, and anyone not having the Son in his heart does not have the life. This is the reason for the urgency of each one of us knowing whether or not Jesus actually lives in our hearts.

Hebrews 7:23-25
23The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing,
24but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
The above is just saying that we don't need many priests anymore because we have one Priest that will never die, so He will be our priest forever.
Do you understand - I assume you do - that in the OT a priest was necessary to forgive sins?
And so a priest is necessary today to forgive sin...
that Priest is Jesus....no physical death for Him,,,,we only need ONE Priest from then on.
So He can save forever....
So He could save until the end of time anyone that wishes to be saved.
Because He will always be "alive" to make intercession for them.

NOT
Jesus saves forever anyone that draws near to God.

If your understanding of Hebrews 7:25 were correct,
how would you explain the following?

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons,
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.
Revelation 2:4-5
But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent.

Many more....
Is the NT in conflict with itself?

No, as Tenchi describes above, and as I have stated anecdotally, if a person departs from the faith, he was among us but not one of us.

Correct.
No one will snatch you from the love of God.

Jesus said His sheep hear His voice and follow Him....
My verses above show that it is possible to stop following Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yup. Exactly. A statement of truth is not identical to the Ultimate Source of All Truth, who is God. They're inter-related but not synonymous, which seems to me very evident.

So if God makes a statement, it's not truth??

Because I'm saved right now.
Because I'm saved by the Savior, not by myself.
Because I have the promise of God's word and the "downpayment" of the Holy Spirit dwelling within me.

Where is the promise of God's word?
Where does it state you'll be saved forever if you believe at one time?
I can't find that verse.

And, yes, Jesus is our Savior.
This idea of becoming saved on our own is becoming very tiresome.
HOW do we save ourselves??


Do you, maybe, mean that no action is required on your part and you'll be saved anyway?
Could we call this being saved by faith alone?

Where does the NT mention faith alone?
It does on one verse...would you care to post it?
I doubt that you would.
Since it negates everything you believe IF I've understood you correctly.

Well, I think it is often wrongly assumed that "fall away" always means "lose your salvation." But I don't think so. Instead, more often than not, what one falls away from is fellowship with God, not relationship with Him, from the benefits of that fellowship, from the spiritual "Promised Land" of life in Jesus deriving from one's "new birth," not from salvation itself.

And, again, where does it state anything about fellowship?
What exactly is a person falling away from....fellowship with God.
OK.
And if we don't have fellowship with God,,,,are we still saved?

I thought we Christians all believed that fellowship is necessary for salvation.
If we're far from God, can we be saved?

Jesus said we can be saved FOR A WHILE....
Matthew 13:21
Yet he has no firm root in himself (IN HIMSELF --- opposite of what you believe)
But is only TEMPORARY
And when affliction or persecution arises (reasons why some fall away from the faith)
because of the word (or who knows what else. The death of a child?)
Immediately he FALLS AWAY.

That doesn't sound like fellowship to me....
Verse 22 speaks of the seed becoming UNFRUITFUL...
Jesus said what is unfruitful will be burned up in speaking about the vine....
John 15:5
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is speaking here about how the Father will TAKE AWAY branches that do not bear fruit.
Verse 2

Like the Israelites in Numbers 13-14, there is a spiritual Promised Land "overflowing with milk and honey" that every born-again person has in Jesus, but because of ignorance, faithlessness and self-will, they wander in the scrub brush and dust of a spiritual wilderness instead. But just as God continued with His faithless Chosen People in the wilderness, He continues with His adopted children, too, though they have "fallen away" from all of what is theirs in their Savior.

Nice idea Tenchi.
But I don't see this anywhere in the NT and Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God.

Could you update this idea from Numbers 13-14?
Because I don't see it anywhere.

There is no one who seeks God entirely on their own (Romans 3:10-11). We are all of us too steeped in sin, too blinded, deafened and hardened in sin, to turn to Christ unaided (Titus 3:3, Ephesians 2:1-3, Colossians 1:21). The Holy Spirit must act to convict us (John 16:8), draw us (John 6:44) and give us the ability to repent (2 Timothy 2:25) if we have any hope of being saved.

Oh. So your reformed.
What about prevenient grace?
Guess that's out too if your reformed.
Maybe we should be more clear here as to our belief system?

We are all steeped in sin.
WHERE does it say we are SO steeped in sin that we are UNABLE to come to God?
Does God not call ALL to repentence?

John 3:16
God loved all of His creation....the WHOLE WORLD.

1 Timothy 2:4
God desires that ALL MEN be saved.

John 12:32
Jesus will draw ALL MEN to Himself.


There is no lack of grace on God's part to call man to His side.

The Spirit's "ministry" to us continues after we've chosen to trust in Christ as our Savior and Lord. He makes a "temple" of us, spiritually regenerates us, and in himself provides to us all we need to abide and persevere in the faith. See: 1 Corinthians 6:19-20, Romans 8:9-16, Colossians 3:1-4, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:13, Philippians 4:13, 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, Ephesians 3:16, etc.

ALL we need to abide?
Agreed.

But are we to do NOTHING?

You believe in the Kingdom of God here on earth if I remember correctly.
So did Jesus come here to tell us not to worry because HE would do everything for us...
or did Jesus come here to teach us how to be a part of the Kingdom?

See the beatitudes....Matthew 5 - 7

Jesus told Peter He would teach him to be a fisher of men.
Fish the men for what?
To sit around and do NOTHING for the Kingdom?

There is no one, then, who endures to the end who does so apart from the enabling power of the Holy Spirit. He is the Power Source for all Christian living, not our human willpower, not the greatness of our faith, not our ability to remain committed to God. So, then, any believer who does persevere in the faith to their death cannot take to themselves the glory for doing so, or the responsibility; it is only the life and work of the Holy Spirit that produces such perseverance.

Well, depending on how you mean this, I could agree.
But it's always the verbiage.

What does it mean, then, to endure to the end? If what the Bible says about the Holy Spirit is true (which it is), it means that the Holy Spirit will do as God's word has promised he will do in the life of every born-again "new creature in Christ" (2 Corinthians 5:17; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Galatians 5:22-23; Galatians 5:16, 25). Really, he is the One who, in the believer, perseveres.

I can't go read all those verses you post.
How about posting less and writing under them what it says?
Like I do....making it easier for you to discuss.

Jesus said WE are to persevere.
Where does it state that the Holy Spirit must persevere in our stead?

He is the "earnest" of the believer's redemption (2 Corinthians 1:22; 2 Corinthians 5:5; Ephesians 1:13-14), the "downpayment" of their future life in God's eternal, heavenly kingdom. He will "never leave nor forsake" those in whom he dwells (Hebrews 13:5), his life "springing up" in the believer in an everlasting degree (John 4:14; John 7:38-39; John 3:16; Luke 18:30).

Probably very nice verses that could be explained away in 10 seconds.
But we'll never know what they are.

But I do agree that God will never leave us.
I don't think anyone in this forum believes God would forsake us....
Unless we forsake him first.

2 Timothy 2:11-13
11It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;

12If we endure, we will also reign with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;

13If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.

See above.

Also:

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

He who BELIEVES in the Son...
NOT he who BELIEVED in the Son

And catch the next sentence
HE WHO DOES NOT OBEY THE SON WILL NOT SEE LIFE BUT THE WRATH OF GOD ABIDES WITH HIM.

Obey?
But you said nothing is expected of us.

So what is there to obey?

 

[GodsGrace]

Tenchi

2 of 2

1 John 5:11-13
11 And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

He who HAS the Son....
NOT he who HAD the Son...
Depends on IF you have the Son at the time of your death.

13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

Again, present tense.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.

1 Peter 1:3-5
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

And so on.

Right.
That's IF you obtain it.

It is implicit in one's acceptance of the Gospel that one accepts Jesus as he is declared to be - Creator, Lord and Savior - in the Good News of salvation in him (Romans 10:9-10). And so, upon a person's acceptance of Jesus as the Gospel reveals him to be, Scripture says they receive him (in the Person of the Holy Spirit) into their self.

John 1:12-13
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,
13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Another reformed verse....supposedly supporting how God chose us.
I'm not going there in this thread.
You could start a new one and we'll concentrate on reformed theology.

Revelation 3:20
20 'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me.

1 Corinthians 2:12
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God [the Spirit of Christ - Romans 8:9], so that we may know the things freely given to us by God,

Colossians 2:6
6 Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,

Continued below.

I guess it all depends on IF you believe you can't forfeit your salvation.
Revelation 3:20 seems to require some kind of action...
like opening the door.

1 Cor 2:12 seems to state that we are no longer of the world but have the spirit of God.
So IF we return to the world.....
we only lose fellowship with God?

We are told in your verses TO WALK WITH JESUS.

What does walk mean? Is it an action?
Or is He also doing the walking for us?

It clearly states that WE are to WALK in Jesus.
WALK IN JESUS.
WALK.

I do believe that's an action that WE must take.

 

[Tenchi]

So if God makes a statement, it's not truth??

I'm not sure how you extracted this conclusion from what I wrote. It certainly doesn't follow necessarily from the distinction I made.

Where is the promise of God's word?
Where does it state you'll be saved forever if you believe at one time?
I can't find that verse.

See further on in my last post.

And, yes, Jesus is our Savior.
This idea of becoming saved on our own is becoming very tiresome.
HOW do we save ourselves??

The second and last sentences in this quotation seem...odd together. If it's a tiresome idea to you that a man saves himself, I'm surprised at your question.

Anyway, as I explained later on in my last post, I don't believe the Bible ever teaches that we are a co-Savior with Jesus. So, you'll have to ask someone else about how such a role is fulfilled.

Do you, maybe, mean that no action is required on your part and you'll be saved anyway?
Could we call this being saved by faith alone?

Believing on Christ is a "work" (John 6:29), it's something we do in putting ourselves in the position to be saved by Jesus, but, as I explained later on in my last post, our faith doesn't save us; the object of our faith does. When I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10), I no more save myself in doing so than I fix my car by merely believing my mechanic can fix my car, or fill a tooth cavity by just believing my dentist can repair my tooth.

As I pointed out in my last post, any other work I might think to do beyond this inward posture of belief I adopt toward Christ, is ruled out by the repeated and explicit statement of Scripture (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8-9).

And, again, where does it state anything about fellowship?

2 Corinthians 13:14
1 John 1:3
Revelations 3:20

And if we don't have fellowship with God,,,,are we still saved?

Yes. Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son. (Luke 15:11-32)

If we're far from God, can we be saved?

Goodness, yes! Every person comes to God in need of cleansing from the foul stains of their wickedness and from the penalty and power of sin in which they've been living (Romans 3:10-11, 23, Titus 3:3, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.). It is only weak and sin-bound rebels and enemies whom God saves. God never saves saints; they don't need saving, right?

Jesus said we can be saved FOR A WHILE....
Matthew 13:21
Yet he has no firm root in himself (IN HIMSELF --- opposite of what you believe)
But is only TEMPORARY
And when affliction or persecution arises (reasons why some fall away from the faith)
because of the word (or who knows what else. The death of a child?)
Immediately he FALLS AWAY.

I've actually been over this ground earlier in this thread. I'm reluctant to write it all over again here. Suffice it to say that only the last "ground" in which the "seed" was sown and takes root, bearing fruit in due time, was saved. All the other places upon which the "seed" falls are instances of those who take in the truth of the Gospel, who hear it, but who are not saved, as a result.

Fellowship with God is distinctly different than relationship to Him. The story of the Prodigal Son also makes this really clear. No matter where he went, or what he did, he was always his father's son - he had a familial relationship to his father - but they did not enjoy fellowship with one another until the boy returned home in humble repentance and the father could then embrace his son, and clothe him in new robes, and throw a party for him. Though related, the father and son could not commune directly with one another, enjoying the company of the other in unhindered, personal interaction.

Paul made this distinction between relationship and fellowship when he wrote of "living in/by the Spirit" and "walking in/by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25). Living in/by the Spirit is what most Christians do. They are adopted by God into His family, a relationship with Him being established, as a result. But they don't walk in/by the Spirit, living in constant submission to the Spirit's control, thereby enjoying his concrete, transformative work in them: conviction, illumination, strengthening, comfort, and conformation to Christ (among other things) - John 16:8; John 14:26; John 16:13; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4; Galatians 5:22-23, etc. .

That doesn't sound like fellowship to me....
Verse 22 speaks of the seed becoming UNFRUITFUL...
Jesus said what is unfruitful will be burned up in speaking about the vine....
John 15:5
6“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Jesus is speaking here about how the Father will TAKE AWAY branches that do not bear fruit.
Verse 2

I think Jesus was offering a contrasting parallelism in John 15:1-6 between the saved person and the unsaved person; he was not describing a saved person who becomes lost. Alternatively, Jesus was speaking of fruitfulness and unfruitfulness, the "casting into the fire" of verse 6 being symbolic of the spiritual uselessness of one who does not produce "fruit" rather than being descriptive of lost salvation.

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

In verse 6, Jesus does not use the pronoun "you," (his disciples) as he had been doing throughout the preceding verses, but begins to speak of a universal "anyone" who is not abiding in him. Unlike the one in the Vine (the saved person), the one who is not in the Vine (the unsaved person) is an unfruitful branch and cast away, useful only as fuel for a fire.

Gotta go. Will try and write more later.

 

[GodsGrace]

Confessing Jesus Christ as LORD is what initiates salvation.

Living in obedience to Him as LORD is how we continue in the faith.


I don't see any mention of "creeds" in scripture.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Brother, please focus on what Jesus taught, and pay little attention to man made creeds, man made rituals or covenants.

You life depends on it.

We should be thankful for creeds JLB.
I don't wish to derail this thread....
Just to say that there were a lot of heresies floating around in the early church.
The main reason for the Nicene Creed, which is the one I usually mention, is because of arianism.
The early church found it necessary to clarify exactly what it meant by trinity, incarnation, etc.

As long as a doctrine is not AGAINST biblical truths...
I don't think there should be any particuar problem with it.

There was a council held in Acts 15.
There were even others in order to keep the church together.

 

[donadams]

The concept of eternal security has at it's core the precept that Jesus is able to save to the uttermost (i.e., completely and forever) those who come to God through Him because He always lives to make intercession for them (Heb 7:25). Those of us who have rested all our hope in Christ do not see any possible future circumstances that would convince us to turn away from Christ and forsake Him. This is not because we trust in ourselves to endure or to overcome. We believe we will endure and overcome because we believe that Jesus is protecting us from every enemy that would seek to snatch us out of His hand.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30 I and My Father are one.” (Jn 10:27–30)​

A two sided coin!

On God’s side His promises are absolute and God will always be faithful!

2 Tim 2:13


Our side of the coin has an if!
A big “if”!

Rom 11:22
Col 1:21-23
Col 2-5
Heb 12:22-25
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 3:4-6
Jn 2:24-25
2 Tim 2:11-13
Rom 8:17
Matt 28:20
Acts 1:2
Jn 15:4
Mk 13:13
Matt 24:14

We still have free will and can choose (volition) to reject Christ and the faith and renounce our baptism

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Thks

 

[donadams]

Confessing Jesus Christ as LORD is what initiates salvation.

Living in obedience to Him as LORD is how we continue in the faith.


I don't see any mention of "creeds" in scripture.


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Brother, please focus on what Jesus taught, and pay little attention to man made creeds, man made rituals or covenants.

You life depends on it.

What about baptism

Acts 2;42 a creed is the doctrine of the apostles

Sacred scripture alone is not the “Rule of faith” for Christians

We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;

“Not by scripture alone”!

That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!


For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17

Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6

And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42

One shepherd and one fold! Jn 10:16

The truth of the Christian faith and the church are of divine origin and cannot be reformed!

Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14

Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6

Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21

Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18

Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23

Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16

For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the canon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!

The Christian faith is revealed by Christ!

Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19

How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the canon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!

It is impossible to reject the church or her teaching without rejecting Christ who founded the church and revealed her teaching!

You cannot reject the kingdom established by the king and say I obey and submit to the king!

Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)

Christ and His church are one!
((Inseparable unity))
Acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 eph 5:32 Isa 53:5 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24

Thks

 

[donadams]

Yes. I am saved. I abide in Christ. I will endure to the end. I watch and pray. The law's requirements for righteousness are fulfilled in me. All these things are true for me because Jesus lives in me.

Watch and pray to avoid temptation to sin? Why

I thought you were saved and have eternal security?

Thks

 

[Hopeful 2]

The new man is sinless and incorruptible, but the flesh is not. So, sinless perfection for people who walk around in the flesh does not exist. But you think it exists and that you have obtained it?

Good morning NLIC,
If, as correctly stated, the new man is sinless and incorruptible, why wouldn't his skin and bones also be new, and at least sinless ?
New creatures don't carry any parts of the old creature.
2 Cor5:17 says as much..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Besides, what sin can your skin and bones commit ?
The mind is the source of sin.

 

[Hopeful 2]

Your POV is strange to me. If you ascribe to sinless perfection on the basis of having "put on Christ" and being "in Christ", it would follow that you also would ascribe to the idea that being one with Christ also provides protection against the possibility of committing future sins, including the sin of forsaking Christ in favor of sin. After all, isn't this John's point in 1 John 3:9 and 1 John 5:18?

Absolutely.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God. (1 Jn 3:9)​

We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him. (1 Jn 5:18)​

It is clear that you "see the point", so what is so strange about it ?
In light of the OP, and love of the truth, lets look at John 8:32-34...
Jesus speaking to the Jews..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
If we commit sin, we are not free from servitude to sin.
Jesus says, in Matt 6:24..."No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other..."
So, Jesus says those serving/committing sin hate God.

Do you love the truth enough to quit sinning ?
A real, true, permanent, repentance from sin, will accommodate that.

 

[GodsGrace]

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Don't you know who that is speaking of?
Did you know that John was very concerned about gnostics entering into the church?
It's talking about gnostics that did not agree with church teachings.

Anyone who walks away from God has never really known Him as their Father.

Where does it say that?
You keep saying things that are not in the NT.

Explain this:

2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them. 22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

The Church today is crammed full of folk of this kind, false converts, nominal "believers," participating illegitimately in the spiritual activity of the Church, who have never had an actual experience of the life and work of the Spirit within them.

And what experience would that be?
Let God be the judge of what's going on in a person's heart.

This is the sort of person in view in Hebrews 6:4-8. They have been told to do Christian things which will prove they are born-again children of God. But this is entirely false, the great danger of this mistaken thinking illustrated in those who walk away from God believing they've plumbed the depths of Christian experience and found nothing at its core but emotionalism and religious ritual.

You notice that I didn't include Hebrews 6:4-6 in my verses about falling away.

So what exactly do you think those verses mean?
HOW are they like the persons who are going though the motions, as you put it?

There are those, though, who are genuinely born-again children of God who, like the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32), end up in the "pigpen" of sin, having wandered from their heavenly Father into a "far country." Fouled and starving spiritually, they finally look up from the mire of the pigpen and say, "I will go to my father." Only sons (and daughters) do this, however, never the pigs, who quite enjoy the mire. And when the prodigal child of God returns to their heavenly Father in an attitude of humble repentance, sickly and filthy though they may be, He runs out to meet them, (James 4:8) and gathers them into His arms rejoicing (James 4:10; 1 Peter 5:6).

So the Prodigal son was never lost?

So what does AGAIN mean in the following verse?

Luke 15:24
For this son of mine was dead, and has come to life AGAIN...
he was lost and has been found.

So let's go through it:

The father had a son.
He left.
He came back and the father said he had come back to life AGAIN...

The again shows that:
The son was saved
The son became lost
The son was saved AGAIN.

If this is not what it means, please explain what you believe it means.

Some would like to think that such believers have sinned themselves out of their salvation. Of course, where the line is between in and out of salvation no one can say. But Christ's words echo in our ears:

Matthew 5:48
48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Oh for goodness sake Tenchi.
So you think YOU understand the sin nature of man....
BUT JESUS DID NOT!

So we better start being perfect just as Jesus said I guess.

The one wanting to say that the Prodigal-like believer has lost their salvation, in the light of this impossible standard Christ pronounced, is just as much in jeopardy of lost salvation as the prodigal believer they want to condemn. If perfection is the standard, all of us are Prodigals in the pigpen! Which is what Scripture says (Romans 3:10-11, 23, Titus 3:3, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.). No one can meet God's standard; no one can live in such a way as to satisfy God's demand for perfection. Who, then, can be saved by their efforts, by their good works, by their power of endurance? No one.

No other comment on the above.
Enough meat on the table.

And so, we need someone to save us. Christ, in fact, the perfect "Lamb of God"; who, by being perfect for us and sharing with us his perfection, rescues us from ourselves. But this eliminates us from the equation of our salvation, placing the entire onus for our redemption upon Christ. Thus, God's word says,

Jesus was perfect FOR US?
Again,,,,please point me to this verse.

Jesus was perfect because God rquired a perfect lamb without blemish just like in Exodus.
A man could not be the propitiation for the sin of the world.
Because A MAN CAUSED the sin of the world.
It took someone PERFECT.
The ONLY perfect person.
And if I know this....I do believe Jesus knew this when He said we must be perfect.

I'm sure you know what the word perfect means,,,,but it doesn't suit your doctrine.
Maybe it means COMPLETE?

Acts 4:12
12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.



Faith doesn't save. The object of our faith saves: Jesus Christ. See above.

Faith doesn't save?
The NT is full of conflict.

What does this mean:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[GodsGrace]

I know who holds my future in His hand and I trust Him.

I agree with you. I know several people who have walked away from Christianity. Though I am not qualified to make a definitive statement about their salvation (because only God knows their hearts), it is wholey understandable that if they do not believe now, then they never believed.

I've heard this many times.
So where does the NT say this?
Unless you could prove this biblically, it is only your opinion.

Maybe you could explain the verses I also posted to Tenchi:
2 Peter 2:20-22
20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22It has happened to them according to the true proverb, “A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,” and, “A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.”

Infant baptism forces Catholics to believe that true Christians can chose to forsake Christ because it is obvious that many people who were baptized as infants grow up to be unbelievers. But I have no beliefs that force me into accepting the notion that it is possible for me to lose my salvation.

Adults are baptized who then decide to walk away from God.

Could show biblically that a person MUST stay with God after salvation.

Do you believe in free will?
Did you lose that free will when you became saved?

I don't tell anyone that they cannot fall away. But I can say for a certainty that God has given us eternal life,

The life He give is eternal.
But He has not given you life eternally unless you obey God till the end of your life.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
James 1:12
Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.
Hebrews 3:14
For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.
Please post some verses that state you cannot lose your salvation.

that life exists in His son, that anyone who has the Son living in His heart has the life, and anyone not having the Son in his heart does not have the life. This is the reason for the urgency of each one of us knowing whether or not Jesus actually lives in our hearts.

I agree.

No, as Tenchi describes above, and as I have stated anecdotally, if a person departs from the faith, he was among us but not one of us.

But where in the NT is this declared?
I can't find any verse that states this.

You just said that IF A PERSON DEPARTS FROM THE FAITH.

And this is correct.
A person departs from the faith...
What else could he be departing from?

This is what Peter tells us:

2 Peter 3:14
Therefore, beloved, (born again believers) since you look for these things, be DILIGENT to be FOUND by Him in peace, SPOTLESS and BLAMELESS.
Why does Peter say this?
What if Jesus does not find us spotless and blameless?
Does it sound like a warning?

2 Peter 3:17
17You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, be on your guard so that you are not carried away by the error of unprincipled men and fall from your own steadfastness,

There are also verses about being steadfast, but this should suffice to make a point.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm not sure how you extracted this conclusion from what I wrote. It certainly doesn't follow necessarily from the distinction I made.

I'm not either.
I asked you to clarify.
Are you speaking in general,,,,about Jesus?

See further on in my last post.

The second and last sentences in this quotation seem...odd together. If it's a tiresome idea to you that a man saves himself, I'm surprised at your question.

It's tiresome because it's not biblical.

I wish you'd use syntax in your replies so I wouldn't have to go back and forth to see what I wrote.
I don't have much time for posting.

And no. You didn't explain anything.
You're just giving me your ideas.
Your personal ideas don't mean too much to me.

This entire OP is about biblical truth.
If you think one things
and I think another thing

THEN WE MUST DECIDE WHICH IS THE TRUTH.

What you believe and what I believe is not congruous.

One of us is wrong. One of us is reading and understanding the bible incorrectly,
and on a very important matter.

Anyway, as I explained later on in my last post, I don't believe the Bible ever teaches that we are a co-Savior with Jesus. So, you'll have to ask someone else about how such a role is fulfilled.

I'm not asking you how a role is fulfilled.
I'm asking you WHERE in the NT does it state that Jesus did it all and we are to do nothing in regard to our salvation.

If you post scripture that supports your claims, at least I could have respect for what you believe.
You're not posting scripture.
You're going to have to post one or two verses, so I could read them,,,,and then we'll discuss.

Also, I'd appreciate it if you'd reply to mine.
I don't come here to play verse ping pong.

Believing on Christ is a "work" (John 6:29), it's something we do in putting ourselves in the position to be saved by Jesus, but, as I explained later on in my last post, our faith doesn't save us; the object of our faith does.

John 6:29 means faith is a work?

So are you going to explain Ephesians 2:8?

Are you creating another conflict in the NT?

What do y ou mean the object of our faith?
OF COURSE it's Jesus who saves us.

But it's through our faith.

Please explain Ephesians 2:8

And John 6:29.....you've never pondered what that means since it cannot POSSIBLY mean what you believe because, as I've stated, you're creating another conflict.

The bible does not conflict itself.
If it does, we could stop depending on it right now.

When I believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 10:9-10), I no more save myself in doing so than I fix my car by merely believing my mechanic can fix my car, or fill a tooth cavity by just believing my dentist can repair my tooth.

No.
What does Romans 10:9-10 state exactly?
You don't fix your car by believng your mechanic
And you don't get saved by believing Jesus....

You have to allow that belief to have action.
No action
No faith

Faith creates action.

Here's another verse:

John 5:28
28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

Does the above state you must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved?
Does Matthew 7:21 say you must DO SOMETHING in order to be saved?


21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.



Does Matthew 7:24 say we must DO SOMETHING?

24“Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock.

As I pointed out in my last post, any other work I might think to do beyond this inward posture of belief I adopt toward Christ, is ruled out by the repeated and explicit statement of Scripture (Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8-9).

Difficult to read scripture if you don't post it.

Post it and then we'll discuss.

2 Corinthians 13:14
1 John 1:3
Revelations 3:20
Yes. Consider the parable of the Prodigal Son. (Luke 15:11-32)

So ???

That's your reply?

You haven't replied to one verse of mine yet...

 

[GodsGrace]

Tenchi
2 of 2

Goodness, yes! Every person comes to God in need of cleansing from the foul stains of their wickedness and from the penalty and power of sin in which they've been living (Romans 3:10-11, 23, Titus 3:3, Ephesians 2:1-3, etc.). It is only weak and sin-bound rebels and enemies whom God saves. God never saves saints; they don't need saving, right?

IF a person is far from God he fan be saved.
OK

So if a person is far from God HE NEEDS SAVING.

If I wander off from God, I become lost and am in need of SAVING...
no matter what condition I was in before I wandered off.

Jesus tells the parable of The Lost Sheep.
The sheep was in the fold.
He was safe.
He wandered off.
He became lost and in danger of being killed.
Jesus went to look for him to save him...AGAIN...like the Prodigal Son.

I've actually been over this ground earlier in this thread. I'm reluctant to write it all over again here. Suffice it to say that only the last "ground" in which the "seed" was sown and takes root, bearing fruit in due time, was saved. All the other places upon which the "seed" falls are instances of those who take in the truth of the Gospel, who hear it, but who are not saved, as a result.

Do you wonder then why this scripture keeps being brought up to you?

Are you saying that JESUS was wrong is saying that the person's salvation was TEMPORARY?

I guess Jesus could be wrong
If you're right.

Fellowship with God is distinctly different than relationship to Him. The story of the Prodigal Son also makes this really clear. No matter where he went, or what he did, he was always his father's son - he had a familial relationship to his father

He might have had a familial relationship....
but he was given his inheritance and was due NO MORE from his father....
except the father's love WHEN HE RETURNED HOME and was found AGAIN.

Could you please post some verses in the parable that explains what you believe?

- but they did not enjoy fellowship with one another until the boy returned home in humble repentance

Why did the boy have to repent?

and the father could then embrace his son, and clothe him in new robes, and throw a party for him. Though related, the father and son could not commune directly with one another

If you cannot COMMUNE with God...
it means you're not a part of Him.

Are the following works?
Are you required to keep Paul's exhortations or not?


Ephesians 5:1-6
1Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children;
2and walk in love, just as Christ also loved you and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God as a fragrant aroma.
3But immorality or any impurity or greed must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints; 4and there must be no filthiness and silly talk, or coarse jesting, which are not fitting, but rather giving of thanks.
5For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

, enjoying the company of the other in unhindered, personal interaction.

WHERE does it state this?

Paul made this distinction between relationship and fellowship when he wrote of "living in/by the Spirit" and "walking in/by the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16, 25). Living in/by the Spirit is what most Christians do. They are adopted by God into His family, a relationship with Him being established, as a result. But they don't walk in/by the Spirit, living in constant submission to the Spirit's control, thereby enjoying his concrete, transformative work in them: conviction, illumination, strengthening, comfort, and conformation to Christ (among other things) - John 16:8; John 14:26; John 16:13; Ephesians 3:16; Romans 8:13; Philippians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 1:3-4; Galatians 5:22-23, etc. .

Can't see the verses.
Do you really want to discuss them?
Doesn't seem like it.
Please compare the verses you have above showing that living by and walking by are different concepts.

I think Jesus was offering a contrasting parallelism in John 15:1-6 between the saved person and the unsaved person; he was not describing a saved person who becomes lost. Alternatively, Jesus was speaking of fruitfulness and unfruitfulness, the "casting into the fire" of verse 6 being symbolic of the spiritual uselessness of one who does not produce "fruit" rather than being descriptive of lost salvation.

Wow!!
Yeah. This must be comforting to you.
Unfortunately Jesus did not mince His words when it came to being saved and obeying Him.

John 3:36
. 36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
John 8:51
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
Obeying Jesus....
Keeping His word....

The wrath of God abides....
Those that don't keep His word will see death.
Sounds much more serious than "loosing fellowship", doesn't it?

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing.
6 If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned.

In verse 6, Jesus does not use the pronoun "you," (his disciples) as he had been doing throughout the preceding verses, but begins to speak of a universal "anyone" who is not abiding in him. Unlike the one in the Vine (the saved person), the one who is not in the Vine (the unsaved person) is an unfruitful branch and cast away, useful only as fuel for a fire.

Gotta go. Will try and write more later.

Ooh. Verses.
ANYONE does not abide means ANYONE that does not abide.
Jesus clearly states that every branch that does not bear fruit...
Where is it stated whether or not the person is saved???
You're reading into the verses.

And even if it did refer to Christians (which were not yet on the scene)
it clearly states that IF THEY DID NOT PRODUCE FRUIT they would be TAKEN AWAY.
No matter how you want to understand the wording, your incorrect in your analysis.
You should not change the words of Jesus Tenchi.
You should not correct what Jesus was saying.
You should not add to what Jesus was saying.
Revelation 22:18
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.
I think Jesus knew what He meant when speaking and said what He meant.