Does man have the free will choice to choose God?

[follower of Christ]

Those like myself who believe in a Sovereign God,

And you know I already responded to this lame post...

No, what you believe in is a puppet master idol who is so much of a coward that he's frightened that pitiful mans free will might destroy his plans, so he has to micromanage every thought, every word, every act in order to keep absolute control.

TRUE sovereignty REQUIRES Free Will, friend....otherwise its nothing but a puppeteer arguing with himself thru his mindless puppets....completely vain and worthless.

If THAT is what you think about God, then you need to get back into the scriptures.
Free will is an absolute necessity of this creation...without it creation serves NO purpose.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
I have notice a pattern to your answers and it is that you say your opinion or bias but do not actually explain the passage. I will give you an example in Job chapter 1 we have:
“And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
12And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.â€Â
Now this passage you have God going to Satan and asking him to consider His servant Job and Satan telling God that Job is upright and so on, because He has placed a hedge of protection around him. God says, I will take away that protection, do what you want, just do not hurt Job physically. Satan uses evil men to completely kill and destroy his family and what he owned.
Instead of explaining the passage you make a†brushstroke†statement,
“

Sorry gent but that DOESNT SAY that GOD CAUSED Satan to do any of these things. Not even a good try.â€Â

God opens the door to Satan’s destruction of Job’s family by allowing all these things to happen. Now rational people would readily admit that this whole scenario is like the chief of police (a greater authority) seeing a known criminal and telling him, “Have you consider my man Job over there in the convenient store? He is an upright citizen and he respects my authority over him?â€ÂThe criminal responds, “The reason he respect you, and prospers, is due to you having the police watching his establishment all the time, take away his protection and he will curse youâ€Â. The police officer says OK, do what you want with his stuff, just don’t hurt him physicallyâ€Â. Now there is not a rational person in this realm that would not say that this chief of police is guilty of an evil act, though he himself did not actually to the crime.
So, with all this said, I will leave you to your narrow minded answers.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
I have notice a pattern to your answers and it is that you say your opinion or bias but do not actually explain the passage.

And Ive noticed a pattern in yours where you dont actually READ my posts.

Your PASSAGE DOESNT SAY what you seem to BELIEVE it says.
I dont need to write a commentary on the passages to show that they ARENT proclaiming what you seem to believe they are

Your PASSAGE does NOT INCLUDE ALL OF THE RELEVANT DATA.
In MY example that YOU have not yet given an accepatable response to, I presented how TWO CLEAR verses can be used to extort money from others because 'Jesus said so'.

What YOU did was run to OTHER scriptures to try to explain those away....precisely what I WANTED you to do...that was the point
Because in doing so you PROVE that those TWO verses ARENT ALL OF THE RELEVANT DATA..and that they HAVE to be HARMONIZED with the REST OF Gods word to be fully understood.
JUST AS YOUR passages do..

 

[follower of Christ]

double posted...

 

[follower of Christ]

God opens the door to Satan’s destruction of Job’s family by allowing all these things to happen.

Firstly, YOU dont KNOW what Gods INTENT was there...so dont even go there.

Secondly, you just PROVED that you do NOT believe in something you have been professing here for weeks....you just said "by ALLOWING all these things to happen"
That statement (and please dont waste your time rewording or recanting) is the final nail in the coffin of this fallacy of yours and benonis that God ORDAINS or CONTROLS these sinful things.

I AGREE....God ALLOWED all those things to happen to Job...absolutely.
And that does NOT MEAN that GOD ORDAINED or CONTROLLED them...

 

[Osgiliath]

I'm amazed and the logic (or lack thereof) presented in this thread. To say that God predestines our eternal fate makes a mockery of the plan of Salvation. If God predestined the eternal destiny of man without recognizing man's power of choice, the plan of Salvation would be a deceptive trick. If God predestined people to be saved and others to be lost, a plan of Salvation would not be necessary. What is the point of choosing to follow Jesus Christ if you are predestined to be lost?

God does NOT predestine the eternal fate of people. That concept is called "fatalism", and is FALSE! However, God does predestine certain people for service, and He does predestine events, such as making the process of adoption as His sons available to all mankind.

People are so consumed with themselves and their own destiny, they loose focus on what is actually being said in the Bible. Notice these two passages:

"He predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will . . ." (Ephesians 1:5)

"He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

Put those two verses together and what does it mean?

QUESTION: "If God predestined us to be adopted as His sons; then why is He patient with us, wanting us to repent so we don't perish?"

Ephesians 1:5 (above) says what?

* God predestined who? Us (fallen man).
* He predestined fallen man to be what? Adopted (the adoption process).
* How did He predestine fallen man to be adopted as His sons? Through Jesus Christ!

God predestined the process of adoption as His sons available to all mankind through Jesus Christ. The "predestination" spoken of is about what Jesus did so all would have the "opportunity" to be adopted as His sons. God predestined "the process" (plan of Salvation) in which fallen man could be saved (IF THEY CHOSE). ;)

God does NOT predestine the eternal destiny of people. But God does know beforehand what the eternal destiny of people will be. Bubba and Benoni, you two are confusing the concept of predestination with the concept of foreknowledge. I'm quite certain you know the difference, but regarding the Scriptures, you're not getting it right.

Look at this:

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come." (Revelation 17:8)

Did you notice when the Book of Life was written in that verse? Did you also notice the names were left out of the Book of Life at the time it was written? This says that the people, whose names were not written in the Book of Life from the creation of the world, will be astonished when they see the beast that will rise up out of the abyss.

Three questions:

1. "Did God know in advance who was going to be lost from creation to the final moment of Earth’s history; thus leaving their names out of the Book of Life?"

2. "Are the wicked lost because God left their names out of the Book of Life?"

3."Are the wicked lost because they chose to rebel against God?"

(answers in back of book) :D

 

[Benoni]

Adoption.

For others, the challenge of a deeper walk with God came when the Spirit began to quicken the truth of "That we might receive the adoption of sons." [Galatians 4:5].

The word "ADOPTION" actually coming from a Greek word that means "SON-PLACING," which again signifies that whole process of our spiritual development unto maturity. Taken from the ancient Hebrew practice of "adoption," which was a set time chosen by the father, when his son having reached a responsible age and maturity, the father would take his son before the elders of the community, and there publicly proclaim this boy to now be his "SON," with the full rights and privileges of manhood.

For, "I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; but is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father." Galatians 4:1,2].

Again, Romans 8:14-19 has become a rich treasure house of truth, revealing some weighty thoughts concerning the path of sonship. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received a spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with Him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature WAITETH FOR THE MANIFESTATION OF THE SONS OF GOD."

Receiving the Spirit of adoption, to be followed by all the training processes, learning obedience by the things we suffer, and yet reckoning that all these present sufferings are not worthy to be compared with the glories to follow. Ultimately we are to come to the hour when the Father pleases to manifest these "developed ones", placing them in the full position of sons.

 

[Osgiliath]

Hi Benoni,

The Scripture you posted only reaffirms my point. And judging by your previous posts, I don't think you are differentiating between those who are predestined for service and those who are not. Also, I believe you are confusing (overlapping) God's foreknowledge with the idea of predestination.

I'm curious to know what your answers are to the three questions I asked in my previous post.

 

[follower of Christ]

I'm amazed and the logic (or lack thereof) presented in this thread.

Stick around...you'll get more used to lots of absurd reasoning with a couple folks here.

To say that God predestines our eternal fate makes a mockery of the plan of Salvation.

Agreed.

 

[follower of Christ]

The Scripture you posted only reaffirms my point.

Which only serves to compound the issue in this thread.
Most of what these folks present either doesnt say what they claim....or worse, it helps top actually refute their own arguments.
I feel like Im living in the twilight zone on this forum sometimes....

 

[follower of Christ]

Three questions:

1. "Did God know in advance who was going to be lost from creation to the final moment of Earth’s history; thus leaving their names out of the Book of Life?"

2. "Are the wicked lost because God left their names out of the Book of Life?"

3."Are the wicked lost because they chose to rebel against God?"

(answers in back of book) :D

Another point with the Book of Life is this..

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
(Revelation 22:19 KJV)

"take away"
G851
ἀÆαιÃÂέÉ
aphaireÃ…Â
af-ahee-reh'-o
From G575 and G138; to remove (literally or figuratively): - cut (smite) off, take away.

Take away in the first instance absolutely would show that the words that ARE there are being 'removed'.
Since it is the same word in the second instance, its easily discerned that the intent is the same...something is there that is 'removed'.

If a mans part in the Book of Life can be 'removed' then we can rest assured that God has NOT foreordained mans every move as benoni seems to believe.

 

[Osgiliath]

Originally posted by follower of Christ
Take away in the first instance absolutely would show that the words that ARE there are being 'removed'.

Since it is the same word in the second instance, its easily discerned that the intent is the same...something is there that is 'removed'.

If a mans part in the Book of Life can be 'removed' then we can rest assured that God has NOT foreordained mans every move as benoni seems to believe.

Shhh! Don't give too many hints away! :D I knew you would get them .

Here's some more:

Moses and God:

"But now, please forgive their sin – but if not, then blot me out of the book you have written." The Lord replied to Moses, "Whoever has sinned against me I will blot out of my book." (Exodus 32:32, 33)

King David knew about the Book of Life. He wrote:

"May they be blotted out of the book of life and not be listed with the righteous." (Psalm 69:28)

"Your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be." (Psalm 139:16)

Jesus alluded to the Book of Life when He said to His disciples:

"However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven." (Luke 10:20)

Paul also mentions the Book of Life by name:

"Yes, and I ask you, loyal yokefellow, help these women who have contended at my side in the cause of the gospel, along with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life." (Philippians 4:3)

The concepts of foreknowledge and predestination can be confused very easily if not careful.

 

[Benoni]

Question 1
"Did God know in advance who was going to be lost from creation to the final moment of Earth’s history; thus leaving their names out of the Book of Life?"

Yes God knows all things.

(Acts 2:39)
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and TO ALL THAT ARE AFAR OFF, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

(Acts 2:39)Amp
.
39For the promise [of the Holy Spirit] is to and for you and your children, and to and for all that are far away, [even] to and for as many as the Lord our God invites and bids to come to Himself.(A



Rom. 8:29
"Whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren."

Rom. 8:29, 30. (Weymouth).

"Those whom He has foreknown He has also predestined to share the likeness of His Son, that He might be the eldest in a vast family of brothers; and those whom He has predestined He has also called; and those whom He has called He has also acquitted; and those whom He has acquitted He has also glorified."

"Are the wicked lost because God left their names out of the Book of Life?"

I see the Book of Life a lot different then most. The wicked are lost because God has not called them yet.

1 Corinthians 15:22-24

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


(order) Gk Strong’s NT:5001 tagma (tag'-mah); from NT:5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:

If God does not call you, you cannot come. I am pretty leery on the word whosoever as I mentioned earlier. God is not calling all people now. The word "whosoever" should be rendered "all"; in the original it is the word usually rendered all throughout the New Testament; it occurs hundreds of times, and it is rendered "all" in over nine hundred instances, and whosoever in only about forty; the rendering all then is plainly the usual one.

."Are the wicked lost because they chose to rebel against God?"

The wicked are born in sin; they were cursed by God; the only will they have is to rebel against God; it is their carnal nature which is dead to all things spiritual; until God quickens them, or drags them.

 

[follower of Christ]

Rom. 8:29
"Whom He did foreknow He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren."

Precisely.
Those whom He FOREKNOWS ALSO are predestinated...TWO steps, not one.
And what are these predestined to ? to simply be CONFORMED to the image of His Son.
No absolute predestination there, Im afraid.

 

[Bubba]

God opens the door to Satan’s destruction of Job’s family by allowing all these things to happen.

Firstly, YOU dont KNOW what Gods INTENT was there...so dont even go there.

Secondly, you just PROVED that you do NOT believe in something you have been professing here for weeks....you just said "by ALLOWING all these things to happen"
That statement (and please dont waste your time rewording or recanting) is the final nail in the coffin of this fallacy of yours and benonis that God ORDAINS or CONTROLS these sinful things.

I AGREE....God ALLOWED all those things to happen to Job...absolutely.
And that does NOT MEAN that GOD ORDAINED or CONTROLLED them...

Follower,
If God allowed (ordained, directed, orchestrated, set-up, etc), He then also knew what was going to happen to Job at the hands of Satan, or He is not omniscient. Just like you Follower, if you had the power and authority to keep someone from being murdered, robbed, or raped and failed to help the individual and actually suggested to the person who next to abuse, are you not also part of the problem? Since God knows the “beginning from the end†He is able to ordain such events, because He will make it all work out for the benefit of man, as He did with Job. Your theology of freewill, says God is not allowed to use evil or good because it interferes with man’s sense of justice in the former and interferes with man’s freewill in the latter. Your theology is the type that stands in the wings and says man must exercise his freewill, and if he is not as savvy as me and refuses Jesus, then God has the right to toast him for eternity. My theology is that God uses evil and good in this life to prepare us for the next and He does not want to toast anyone forever.
Let’s look at other Scripture that He uses evil for good;
He knew what would happen to Jesus when he allowed Pilate, Romans, the crowd (us in every age) to abuse and then crucify Him. Acts 4:27-28 actually says that God anointed Pilate, the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever His hand had predestined to occur, which was the brutal murder of Jesus, for our benefit. The Lord hardens the Heart of Pharaoh (Exodus 11:1) in order that he would not allow Israel to leave the land, and then at the Passover He sends the Destroyer to kill all those first born whose parents did not have blood over the door. The Lord in the first person says “I will go through the land of Egypt...and strike down...I am the Lord†(Exodus 12:12).Mind you, probably a lot of these children died never having the chance to convince their parents of the need to comply to this Hebrew God’s demands. Thankfully, my theology does not leave these and the billion others since, in dire straits forever. I will be the first to admit that God usually works through second causes, but there are Scripture where no matter how you look at it He is the first cause. Satan himself was created evil (John 8:44, 1John 3:8, Isaiah 45:47, 54:16) as was the tree in the Garden (good and evil) and after our first parents transgressed, they became “like Usâ€Â, speaking probably of the Trinity, having the knowledge of both good and evil.
If I thought it would do any good, I would continue on with these types of verses, but your mind is on one track and not at this time ready to budge. There is hope, for God as shut up all men to disobedience (ordained that it be) that He might show mercy to all (Rom. 11:32) even Follower.
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

man, this topic and the illogic just keeps going and going

Follower,
If God allowed (ordained, directed, orchestrated, set-up, etc),

I suppose you dont think we SEE the little game you just pulled there ?
"ALLOWED" does NOT MEAN "ordained"
Try this game with those who may fall for it, friend.

 

[follower of Christ]

He then also knew what was going to happen to Job at the hands of Satan, or He is not omniscient.

KNOWING is not CONTROLLING....even if some here cant seem to grasp the fact.
God can KNOW and ALLOW without ORDAINING

Your theology of freewill, says God is not allowed to use evil or good because it interferes with man’s sense of justice in the former and interferes with man’s freewill in the latter.

And now you resort to MISrepresentation for shock value.
I NEVER said that God does not use 'evil'...I know better.
God ALLOWS evil where men WANT evil....the decision is to DO evil is ALWAYS on the part of the being committing it...including SAtan ACTING in an evil manner towards Job...GOD did not cause Satan to do so, nor ORDAIN satans actions.

Your theology is the type that stands in the wings and says man must exercise his freewill, and if he is not as savvy as me and refuses Jesus, then God has the right to toast him for eternity.

o....k...

Let’s look at other Scripture that He uses evil for good;

I KNOW ALL of the passages already...believe it or not *I* have a bible and *I* study it daily ;)

He can turn anything around for good....that DOESNT SHOW that HE ORDAINS that evil.

He knew what would happen to Jesus when he allowed Pilate, Romans, the crowd (us in every age) to abuse and then crucify Him. Acts 4:27-28 actually says that God anointed Pilate, the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever His hand had predestined to occur, which was the brutal murder of Jesus, for our benefit.

God foreknew and therefore set the plan into motion.
Jesus, the Son, WILLINGLY died for mans sin...

The Lord hardens the Heart of Pharaoh (Exodus 11:1) in order that he would not allow Israel to leave the land, and then at the Passover He sends the Destroyer to kill all those first born whose parents did not have blood over the door.

In RARE instances God DOES take the wheel...and we have covered this fact ad nauseum...NO one here is denying that God CAN do as much.
That does NOT show that God ORDAINS mans evil.
What it shows is that when MAN CHOOSES TO BE EVIL, as pharoah CHOSE to be, God may in these cases cause the man to go even further into error....there are quite a few cases of this in both the New and Old testaments...Youre showing us nothing new here, b...

If I thought it would do any good, I would continue on with these types of verses, but your mind is on one track and not at this time ready to budge. There is hope, for God as shut up all men to disobedience (ordained that it be) that He might show mercy to all (Rom. 11:32) even Follower.
Bubba

It wont do any good because you have nothing that proves your views.

 

[Bubba]

Follower,
I explained myself and to me for God to allow anything, then He ordained it, because He already knew about the event before the foundation of the earth. I like this article:

Predestined or Doctrine of Freewill
September 15, 2007 by TJM Admin
"Certainly, you can not have it both ways. This is just one of the problems that I have whenever I speak with a Christian with regards to their faith. The amount of double talk that they use just baffles me. (Yet, they will be the first to point the finger when a theory is changed, refined or abandoned.) Hopefully someone out there can shed a little light on this.
We are told constantly that we posses freewill and that, in fact, God designed it to be that way. We are told that he did not want a bunch of “robots,†that he wants us to “choose†to serve him. I have a hard time swallowing this right from the first book of the Bible. In Genesis, we are told that Adam and Eve were given only one fruit of the garden that they must not partake of:

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Of course, we are told that it was due to Adam and Eve’s ability to exorcise their freewill that they were able to disobey God’s command. In reality, was this a punishable crime? What I mean by this is wouldn’t you have to KNOW the difference between good and evil in order to realize that you should not disobey this command? Did they know that it was wrong to do so? How would you discipline your child for an offense that they did not understand was wrong? Would it be this severe? Can you honestly make an educated choice when you simply do not understand the concept of right and wrong, good vs evil? And if we are to simply obey without that knowledge, how is that any different than creating a robot? But the plot thickens.

1Peter 1:19-20 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Foreordained before the foundation of the world. What does this verse tell us? It’s quite simple, really. The death of Jesus for the sins of mankind was plotted out before God even created the world. God knew that his command would fall on deaf ears. It seems as though the deck was stacked against us before the game had even started. Seems that Jesus knew this as well:

Matt. 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Few there be that find it. Which brings us back to the question at hand; predestination or freewill? Some have tried to counter this question with an answer something like this, “You have freewill and the ability to exorcise it, God just simply knows the outcome.†To me, this is a complete cop out. If the outcome is already known to God, then freewill is simply an illusion. Your idea of freewill in this instance is nothing short of a Magician’s Choice.

Even Christians seem to get confused in their own jargon. “God gave you freewill,†and in the next few sentences you hear the old phrase, “God has a plan for your life.†These two statements are diametrically opposed to one another. If God has a plan for my life, it would appear that freewill is little solace. Yet, if I have freewill, what good is God’s plan? After all, surely God did not plan for Adam to fall, thus making all of mankind face original sin, thus having to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself all the while knowing that many of us would not receive salvation, thus damning those souls to eternity in hell, right? Oh, wait. He did plan on that. That’s why Jesus was preordained to die before the world was created. What a loving God!"
Bubba

 

[follower of Christ]

Even Christians seem to get confused in their own jargon. “God gave you freewill,†and in the next few sentences you hear the old phrase, “God has a plan for your life.â€Â
These two statements are diametrically opposed to one another.

no, guy, they arent.
They arent because in order for our lives to line up with His plan we HAVE TO BE WILLING TO SUBMIT TO that plan.
Good grief...

If God has a plan for my life, it would appear that freewill is little solace.

Wrong.
God has a plan for my life....but *I* have to SEEK out what that plan is and then WILLINGLY pursue it.
God isnt going to force me to do His will.

Yet, if I have freewill, what good is God’s plan?

Because God takes pleasure when His children WILLINGLY desire and follow His plan for their lives.
Its not that complicated, b....it really isnt.

This god you worship doesnt have a plan for our lives...he is simply a puppetmaster who controls his mindless automatons and is putting on a puppet show merely for his own amusement, since no other sentient beings seem to be around anywhere.

Sovereignty REQUIRES Free Will.
Again, I realize you dont seem to understand that fact, but fact it remains.
Without free will, sovereignty does not exist as there is nothing to be sovereign over.

 

[follower of Christ]

Follower,
I explained myself and to me for God to allow anything, then He ordained it, because He already knew about the event before the foundation of the earth. I like this article:

Bubba

Again...foreKNOWing is NOT the same as ORDAINING.

There is MORE than ONE aspect to Gods will
There is His DETERMINED will..that which WILL happen
And there is His PERMISSIVE will. That which He ALLOWS to happen.

You confuse the scriptures so that you seem to believe there is only determined will.